Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Fine]

As is saying you were in bed with your boyfriend all night and your boyfriend now claiming he was on the computer all night. But then since the "lovebirds" (Frank's term) could barely understand each other, who knows?

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Hmmm, I wonder whether Frank borrowed the term from Giulia Bongiorno, Raffaele's attorney, who also called them lovebirds, while addressing the court.

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[Alt+F4]

__________________

Hmmm, I wonder whether Frank borrowed the term from Giulia Bongiorno, Raffaele's attorney, who also called them lovebirds, while addressing the court.

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Could be. What could possibly be the motivation for Raffaele's attorney to call them lovebirds? How does this help the defense? They knew each other for six days before the murder and it appears that they had a language barrier.

In addition, calling them lovebirds doesn't exactly fit in with the defense's attempt now to have Raffaele on the computer the entire night. You have an attractive, probably naked women in your bed and you'd rather watch Japanese animation?

 

[shuttlt]

Could be. What could possibly be the motivation for Raffaele's attorney to call them lovebirds? How does this help the defense? They knew each other for six days before the murder and it appears that they had a language barrier.

What connotations does the phrase have in Italian?

 

[Kaosium]

Yes, I have now read that perugiashock article. Clearly it is some sort of a source for some kind of mystical interest. It's couched in Franks hyperbolic language where one can't quite be sure what is based on fact and what is based on him floridly and imaginatively expanding upon his theme. Perhaps that's just his style rubbing me up the wrong way. The funny thing about that particular article is how strongly it evoked Mark Anthony's "...Brutus is an honourable man" speech.

My criticisms are that the source is anonymous. We don't know what the case was, or have any context to make a judgement. For all that, I don't dismiss it out of hand.

One further point. You say that they are completely separate sources. Are they? Clearly Frank is aware in 2009 when he wrote that article of the statements made by Maori. I was interested in finding early uses of the word "satanic" to try and get to a time where it wasn't already a meme doing the rounds.

Frank lives there, he knows the environment and the culture. Barbara Nadeau and Doug Preston spent a great deal of time in the area working around him and with him, to Preston's eventual chagrin. None of these people are connected, and in fact their outlooks on the case and the man vary. That they would all be relying on a 'meme' generated solely from a statement by a defense lawyer for, in some cases, far more in depth information about a persons' interests strikes me as extremely unlikely.

There was something re-posted recently that I found rather edifying. It was well-written, informative on a number of things, however being as it was a year-old it was clearly outdated. A number of things that 'could not be found' have in fact since been 'found' and interestingly were also just re-posted on this thread. Another thing intriguing about this piece was its lack of sources, odd in itself as apparently it was intended to refute contentions made in a book the author had not read. Indeed a link provided by the post is germane to this current discussion, as it reads:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-01/the-other-murders-that-could-save-her/2/

At one point in the investigation of Narducci in the Monster case, the prosecutors considered a satanic cult angle, and the investigators in Perugia initially suggested that Kercher might have been murdered in a satanic ritual because the murder occurred just after Halloween. But that theory has long been purged from the dossier and has played no part in the prosecution’s case against Knox.

It does appear to me that the idea of the murder being part of a satanic ritual--at one point--is better sourced than absence of evidence being evidence of absence of Mignini's interests in this regard. Indeed I am aware that if one wants to they can find various reasons all four of these sources can be discounted, but then one runs into the problem that if '... nothing is true, then anything is possible.'

I'm betting that Giuliano Mignini would understand at least two meanings of that intended triple-entendre, I'm guessing that the third would not escape you.

 

[Kaosium]

Seems to me that telling the police that you were in bed with your boyfriend then telling them you were in the same house where the murder occurred is a serious lie.

How do you believe this 'lie' came to be told?

 

[Kaosium]

You are quite right of course to point out that the overwhelming majority of my posts are attempting to poke holes in pro-innocence arguments. That probably reveals something, I certainly feel more at home on PMF the IIP for example. I used to post more comments critical of the pro-guilt position. For one thing I feel I have less to add. Fewer of the types of arguments I enjoy, or am at all good at seem to me to be applicable, so I enjoy myself less. Also, I suspect Stilchio would not actually seek to defend his statement as anything more than personal opinion. You have already criticised him for it, so what's the point? I'd rather be critical of things other people aren't being critical of at the moment.

I find that is a very valuable addition to any rational discussion. In fact, when initially reading this thread and the discussion elsewhere I found your contributions, Alt's and Quadraginta's invaluable as they challenged dubious claims, revealed through insistence that there were sources that led back to information above the tabloid level, and provoked the best arguments and curtailed dubious logic and contentions.

The hardest steel is tempered by the hottest forge. Without that sometimes 'discussions' tend to get cemented by past assumptions or slowly degenerate to the edge of lunacy...

 

[Kaosium]

Could be. What could possibly be the motivation for Raffaele's attorney to call them lovebirds? How does this help the defense? They knew each other for six days before the murder and it appears that they had a language barrier.

What defense lawyer would ever stoop to an Appeal to Emotion?!

In addition, calling them lovebirds doesn't exactly fit in with the defense's attempt now to have Raffaele on the computer the entire night. You have an attractive, probably naked women in your bed and you'd rather watch Japanese animation?

LOL!

I had the same thought when it was being said initially by some that there was computer interaction the entire night outside six minutes intervals when the news of the defense's claim about the recovered computer logs broke, being as I recalled testimony I'd heard Amanda give on the stand about what had occurred that night.

Apparently the totality of the gaps would be twenty-six minutes as it would take that long for the screensaver to turn on. After that they were watching what is supposedly a mushy, lovey movie and laptops are known for their portability. I've heard that sometimes during those the screen isn't being viewed every single second...

I imagine some will argue that also means too much schmaltz can trigger killer instincts in the best of people...

 

[Poppy1016]

Sorry to change the subject,but i recently read about a toothbrush related to Rudy. I never saw the details of this. Can anyone expound on this for me? Thanks in advance.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Matteini, as reported in the Telegraph

halides,

Raffaele has already said in his Diary ---and before Judge Matteini ---that Amanda had persuaded him to say she left him.
/

Fine,

I reread the Telegraph article you linked, which discusses the Matteini report. “He retracted his previous statement and justified his conduct by say that it was Knox who convinced him to give a false version of events,” In the context of the rest of the article, this refers to what Sollecito said on the night of 5 November. Later in the same article, “As far as the presence of Knox Amanda is concerned in the place of the murder, there are the statements from Sollecito who has lately confirmed that he was always together with her…” This refers to his appearance before Judge Matteini, as I read it.

 

[Dan O.]

Sorry to change the subject,but i recently read about a toothbrush related to Rudy. I never saw the details of this. Can anyone expound on this for me? Thanks in advance.

Rudy had skipped town by the time his fingrprints were found to match a bloody print found on the pillow under Meredith's body. The police searched his apartment and found the toothbrush which they used to extract Rudy's reference DNA to be compared to the DNA found at the crime scene. (news link)

 

[Poppy1016]

Thanks Dan O.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

interrogations

I don't see why it would be off topic, since it is addressing the possibility of coercion in Sollecito's interrogation, but I think that the analogy is pretty fatuous, unless you are suggesting that Sollecito was a Muslim, and the strip search was conducted by women with the express intent of offending his religious sensibilities.

It's darn hard to conduct a strip search without taking someone's clothes off. Yes, it might be embarrassing to some with extreme body modesty, but if it constitutes "degrading, inhumane treatment or even torture" then there's an awful lot of that going around. Even in airports these days, it would seem.

Trying to compare a strip search to torture is one heck of a stretch, even for these discussions.

Quadraginta,

With due respect I believe you misunderstood me. I happened to use forced nudity because I had just read the book Torture Team, by Phillipe Sands. This book's discussion of cruel or inhumane treatment and of torture reminded me of a couple of things, that each term has a fairly precise meaning in international law and that context is important. My points are (1) Physical coercion is not the only, and not necessarily the most effective technique and (2) interrogation techniques that involved mild, non-injurious contact may be more invasive than they sound.

With respect to Sollecito's interrogation, no, I am not suggesting that he is a muslim. His strip search (if that is indeed what it was) may have happened after his arrest, and so not be part of his interrogation at all. However, the details are obscure.

 

[Chris C]

With respect to Sollecito's interrogation, no, I am not suggesting that he is a muslim. His strip search (if that is indeed what it was) may have happened after his arrest, and so not be part of his interrogation at all. However, the details are obscure.

I dont think they stripped searched him before interrogation. If they did strip search him before interrogation, they couldn't deny he was a suspect during questioning. After all, you don't strip search people that are not suspects. If they strip searched him after his interrogation and before Knox's interrogation that would be highly suspect.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Spezi

It isn't very clear exactly what you are demonstrating here. You seem to be saying that Mignini must be a Satanic rite conspiracy whacko because the Committee to Protect Journalists (obviously a completely unbiased organization ) was upset with Judge Marina De Robertis for having Spezi held incommunicado.

Quadraginta,

I raised two unrelated objections to Fiona's summary of the Monster of Florence case. I realize that Mignini came to the monster of Florence case late, but I still find his thinking on the case to be convoluted at best. The notion Spezi and Preston planted evidence is extremely difficult for me to believe. It is difficult to know how long Mr. Spezi would have remained in prison had the Florentine PM not intervened on his behalf. Nothing I have read about crime journalists in Italy makes me confident that they have sufficient protections.

 

[Mary_H]

If they strip searched him after his interrogation and before Knox's interrogation that would be highly suspect.

Not like everything else they did.

 

[Dan O.]

So they either lied about being asleep during the night, or (he at least) is lying about being on the computer. Which is it?

I think the only lie is somebody lying to themselves about what they think Amanda and Raffaele actually said in their interrogations, testimonies and writings. Raffaele remembered staying up working on his computer. He remembered getting the message from his father before going to bed. Amanda remembers waking up and watching Raffaele sleep. Raffaele remembers Amanda leaving in the morning to go back to her cottage to clean up and change for the trip. He also takes a call from his father that morning and he goes back to bed (probably in that order). Amanda gets back to Raffaele's place around noon by which time he has finally gotten up and is in the bathroom. They fix breakfast since it is still morning for them.

This sequence of events fits perfectly with Raffaele staying up till 6am which also explains why he needs to sleep till almost noon the next day.

 

[shuttlt]

This sequence of events fits perfectly with Raffaele staying up till 6am which also explains why he needs to sleep till almost noon the next day.

Presumably at some point either he, or his lawyers have been specific and made it clear that he says he stayed up until dawn using his computer?

 

[Alt+F4]

I think the only lie is somebody lying to themselves about what they think Amanda and Raffaele actually said in their interrogations, testimonies and writings.

You're lying to yourself Dan if you believe there has ever been any testimony or statements made by either of them regarding Naruto or him being up all night on his computer. Also no mention of them pushing their day trip back to the afternoon because of late sleeping. Why didn't they tell their lawyers, family and/or friends about this all night Naruto/computer thing? Ok, it's because it never happened...

....On the other hand, if it's true, and Raffaele was on the computer all night it does explain why this freak, at age 23, never had a girlfriend before. Still doesn't give Amanda an alibi.

 

[Poppy1016]

I found the statement about the toothbrush on Perugia Shock. It seems they are saying AK and RS lawyers should check the peaks from contamination on the toothbrush DNA with all DNA. IF there are matches, the poster feels that Rudy would have a strong case of his case being heard in Strousberg. If there are matching peaks in AK and RS DNA results, then proof of cotamination exist. Very Interesting.

 

[Alt+F4]

Didn't Raffaele tell the police that he couldn't be 100% certain that Amanda didn't leave during the night because he was asleep there therefore wouldn't know that she left and then later returned?