Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Dan O.]

What my arguments and posts here have shown:
1.) A twenty year old of average strength could have gained the position of the lawyer in the photo, taken a brick sized rock out of his backpack, smashed it through the window, opened the window, climbed one step higher, with the aid of the open shutter, lifted his free leg to the sill, slid in to his crotch, and then climbed into the window. The glass distribution would be similar to what was found.

This puts you in the same vulnerable position as the back deck when you open the window and discover there was a resident inside asleep or otherwise occupied and not willing to answer a knock at the door. You can't escape fast enough to avoid discovery if the light comes on. Smashing the window from a distance and immediately ducking into the shadows would be the intelligent choice for someone that wishes to further their criminal lifestyle. Of course, intelligence is not usually associated with criminals. http://www.dumbcrooks.com/from-the-...glar-with-testicles-impaled-on-broken-window/

 

[Chris C]

It's conversation like this that make me question the point of participating in this debate and the good faith or sanity of the people I'm debating with.

Saying that something is evil is generally understood to be a personal value judgement, or at least a value judgement against a personally held moral/metaphysical framework. It certainly isn't a claim about an externally testable physical reality.

Saying that something is Satanic can either be (overly florid metaphorical uses aside) a subjective statement with reference to ones personal Judaeo-Christian cultural background, or an objective claim that somebody is ACTUALLY a Satanist. The use of the word Satanist with reference to Mignini is heard in the context of The Monster Of Florence case where the claim was that ACTUAL Satanists were involved. To use the word to descibe both his alleged belief that the killings in the Monster Of Florence were the work of ACTUAL satanists and a claim that he, as a Catholic, would naturally regard the actions of the killers as being the work of Satan is clearly confusing two different meanings and misleading. I don't see why anybody would introduce the word "Satanic" in this case except to ridicule Mignini, and/or to confuse the uninitiated into thinking that he actually believed the killings were the work of characters from a Dan Brown novel.

Of course he didn't think it was the work of druids. But again, in talking about druids you are talking about an objective externally testable claim about the religious practices of the people he is talking about. By your rational he would describe their religion as Satanism, wouldn't he? As for the Manga comics, allegedly those were what Mignini thought violent porn lover Raffaele might have been acting out. What relationship Manga has to Satanism I have no idea. They clearly do not derive from a Judeo-Christian Culture. Saying that there were ritualistic elements, assuming that's what he did say, clearly does not necessarily imply religious, let alone specifically Satanist religious rituals.

If I went about bunging words into Amanda's mouth in the manner that is going on here with Mignini people would freak. Should I describe Amanda as a known whore because she slept with Raffaele outside marriage? Is Raffaele a Catholic, does he agree, do you suppose, with Mignini that the murder was satanic?

Its funny how guilters were on the satanic ritual killing band wagon until that theory fell apart. Now that the theory of satanism has been removed from the picture, guilters pretend thats not what Mignini meant when he said what he said. Yet whenever satanic is brought up about some Mignini's wild theories the position gets adamantly denied. Guilters will claim that, thats not what he meant, yet clearly thought thats what he meant when he said it.
They will claim he meant occult or pagan, and defend Mignini with their last breath that he didn't mean satanic. Yet, the whole time try to make you believe there is a major difference between, Satanic Human Sacrifice and Occult/Pagan Human Sacrifice. Yet being a Catholic, I'll tell you the church views them both the same.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

confession?

Thank you, Mary-H. I was wondering about that. So Sollecito's confession that Amanda had indeed gone to Le Chic that night is in the record, due to his legal team's untimely attempt to suppress it.

nopoirot,

I do not understand your use of the word "confession." Mr. Sollecito has never said that he was in any way, shape, or form involved in the crime.

 

[shuttlt]

This puts you in the same vulnerable position as the back deck when you open the window and discover there was a resident inside asleep or otherwise occupied and not willing to answer a knock at the door. You can't escape fast enough to avoid discovery if the light comes on. Smashing the window from a distance and immediately ducking into the shadows would be the intelligent choice for someone that wishes to further their criminal lifestyle. Of course, intelligence is not usually associated with criminals. http://www.dumbcrooks.com/from-the-...glar-with-testicles-impaled-on-broken-window/

This reminds me. While sleeping in a ground floor bedroom in a bad area of town, I did once see an arm come through the bedroom curtains and light a lighter, presumably to check out the burgling potential.

 

[Chris C]

nopoirot,

I do not understand your use of the word "confession." Mr. Sollecito has never said that he was in any way, shape, or form involved in the crime.

I thought the Le Chic statement was about the previous night Oct 31 when Knox was attending the Halloween party at Le Chic without Sollecito and not the night of the murder.

 

[RoseMontague]

I've managed to get a translation of the pages posted by Rose a few pages back. This is pages 8 and 10 (renumbered 7 & 9) of the Matteini report that deals with Raffaele's statements in the Questura, and some of Amanda's. Page nine (renumbered eight) just basically deals with the seizure of Raffaele's shoes, so this is what is relevant to Raffaele's interrogation and statements he made.

Not that it did me much good, as my mind has been reduced to a puddle of warm goo just trying to read it. This must be what Yoda on quaaludes would sound like. I tried to format it to ease comprehension, but if you notice these aren't actually paragraphs below, they're sentences. Is there some sort of cultural aversion to the lowly 'period' amongst Italian speakers?

I'm pretty sure this has been posted before on this thread, did anyone figure out for certain just what is being said here? From what I get out of it, at 10:40 PM of the interrogation on November 5th, Raffaele must have been confronted with the police's mistaken assumption that Amanda couldn't have been there, having been caught on the CCTV camera at her place, so Raffaele's story becomes that Amanda left around 8:30 to 9:00 PM to go to 'Le Chic' to meet friends.

Then it gets weird, but I get the vague impression he thinks she might have been gone two hours and then came home when they slept until 10:00 AM the next morning. In this version he receives a phone call from his dad. Then there's something about him justifying it on assumptions made by Knox being the reason he'd previously reported things that weren't 'true.'

Then it gets really weird. This must be Amanda's part, though they refer to her as a 'he' throughout, which must be that curious quality of google-translated Italian. I don't know what they could be referring to happening on November 6th at 8:30 PM, is this the date of another statement of hers? Is it just a typo and should be November first? I'm guessing the latter, as it then goes into the text message sent by Patrick on the first, and they end up on the basketball courts and then back in the apartment where Patrick has sex with Meredith and something about 'threatened to kill Patrick' and she doesn't hear Meredith scream, as "spaventatasi had my ears, imagining what might have happened." Spaventatasi? They just made that word up! It sounds like pasta. She's not sure if Raffaele is with her, and she wakes up next to him in bed.

Then I guess this is Raffaele's 'recantation,' he says they're together all night, though he can't be sure if she went out, and in this version he's not sure if he talked with his dad at 11:00, or if he just said that to establish his whereabouts in previous versions. Let me guess, the Perugian police misread the phone records again and forced him to say that?

At any rate he seems to think he had trouble communicating with the Perugian police due to accent, and 'influence from the girl' about what she said to the postal police.

Amanda on the 6th is saying that Raffaele was with her all night in the course of 'previous declarations' and then something about having smoked hash with Patrick in the afternoon and being confused as she didn't often partake of it?












(page 8 - renumbered 7)

On November 5, 2007 at 22:40 was again heard Sollecito Rafaele which changed his version of events saying that the evening of the first of November. after Meredith had left the house, he had spoken with Amanda Knox until 18.00 when both had left the apartment I went to the center, at approximately 20.30 - 21.00 at Knox had left saying she would go at the Le Chic pub to meet the friends while the same was back in his home, which had received until 23.00 call from the father on the user setting, which was held on the computer to alter two hours making a reed that the girl was probably towards the back one, then together we were awakened at 10.00 am when Amanda had left home to return to the path of Pregola, I therefore repeat what has been previously declared and justified his conduct on this Knox had been the assumption that convinced him to report the circumstances to be untrue.

For its part, Amanda Knox on 6 November, at 20.30, while he was at the home of Dunning Rafael, received a message on your phone from that sent to Patrick, owner of the pub Le Chic, where she was working, with which the predicted warned that evening the premises would remain closed and therefore should not have run, the same answered that they would be seen later, then left the house saying he was going to urge the work while at the contract he brought at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana; here Patrick met with whom he went away in the apartment do not remember if Pergola where Meredith was already present or if the same had come shortly after, adding however that, despite the recollections confused when he took the afternoon hashsish, Patrick so secluded Meredith, which fell in love, in the bedroom where they had sex, which remember if it had been previously threatened but that was to kill Patrick; stated that in those moments that he could not quantify heard Meredith scream so much that spaventatasi had my ears, imagining what might have happened.

Reported still not sure if it was also Sollecito Rafaele but the next morning you was found sleeping at the home of her boyfriend in her bed: then confirmed the statements already made regarding the course of events from 10.00 in the morning, when it was wake up, until the Postal Police.



(page 10 - renumbered 9)

It follows that the statements made in time by Amanda Knox, as a person informed of the facts can be used both against Rafael that urge against Diya
Lumunda and in turn urge Rafaele statements can be used in against Amanda Knox.

Clarify this point you can see that urge Rafael, at the hearing validation
claimed to have spent the whole night between the 1st and 2nd November with Knox Amnada (sic) having made back into their home at approximately 20:00 to 20:30, to have dinner with the girl, having realized when messages on the mobile phone of the girl, he knew from that that that evening was to go to work at the pub Le Chic, as she was communicated through a text message sent to his mobile phone and they then go to sleep together to wake up the next morning around 10:00 am when Amanda left the house for
Returning to Via della Pergola to take a shower, always during the same statements added, indeed, could not remember if Knox was out or not, but insisted nevertheless not have left home had he stayed at the computer, much to receiving a phone call from parent to 23.00, phone call soon after stated that he did not remember whether he had specifically received or whether he had reported receiving it, to corroborate the circumstances relevant to his stay at home.

As you can see the reminder again gave a different version than the dates
previously, on the conduct held by Knox on the night of 1 and 2 November,
attributing responsibility for such behavior to the influence exerted on it by
girl as a result of statements made by this immediacy to the police post
intervened on the spot, even for his difficulty to speak and understand Italian, like on the other hand indicated that he would urge the same.
Amanda Knox meanwhile, on 6 November, while in the course of previous declarations reported that Sollecito avec spent the entire night with her.

claimed to not remember if I call This was the night between 1 and 2 November at the apartment on Via Pergola, along with Patrick had taken hashish in the afternoon and having so remember not confused be used to make use of these substances, but confirmed that the reminder was definitely with her morning after having woken up at 10.00 on his bed.

Interesting. Not much real clear here, I guess Matteini uses whatever version he wants to make whatever leaps of faith he takes. I thought the fact that the language communication problems, even with Raffaele and the police, comes up again. Not enough emphasis has been placed on this, in my opinion. It is almost a certainty that Raffaele and Amanda also had troubles making themselves understood with each other and that is a possible reason Raffaele did not understand what Amanda was telling him about that evening. Your reasoning that the police told Raffaele that they had Amanda on tape as being near Meredith's apartment matches mine. I bet Raffaele did not have the faintest idea what was really going on with that.

 

[Chris C]

This reminds me. While sleeping in a ground floor bedroom in a bad area of town, I did once see an arm come through the bedroom curtains and light a lighter, presumably to check out the burgling potential.

I own a German Sheppard that I have never heard growl or bark. Makes me wonder if someone has ever attempted to break into my house and got bitten.

 

[shuttlt]

Its funny how guilters were on the satanic ritual killing band wagon until that theory fell apart.

I'm sorry, people believed that the murder was teh work of ACTUAL Satanists? People who worship Satan, drink animal blood, draw pentagrams and try to summon their Dark Lord? The whole Aleister Crowley thing. Evidence that this belief was held for more than 5 minutes by anyone, please?

Now that the theory of satanism has been removed from the picture, guilters pretend thats not what Mignini meant when he said what he said.

Evidence please that he claimed the murder was the work of people who come from a Dan Brown novel?

Yet whenever satanic is brought up about some Mignini's wild theories the position gets adamantly denied. Guilters will claim that, thats not what he meant, yet clearly thought thats what he meant when he said it.

When did he say it? I have no direct quote of him saying it? He certainly denies ever having said it. It seems a little unlikely that he would have said it.

They will claim he meant occult or pagan, and defend Mignini with their last breath that he didn't mean satanic.

Well, I think if you were to claim that he thought that it was the work of ACTUAL pagans, or ACTUAL practitioners of the occult who actually believed in ACTUAL magic and were ACTUALLY performing some kind of ACTUAL occult ceremony, my reaction would be the same. I think the onus is on the people claiming this to offer some half decent proof that he claimed such an unlikely thing.

Yet, the whole time try to make you believe there is a major difference between, Satanic Human Sacrifice and Occult/Pagan Human Sacrifice.

Have you been reading my posts? I'm baffled by your response. My argument is that you are implying he believed that the murder was the work of ACTUAL cultists - whether they be Satanists, Pagans, or whatever. This is such an over embelishment of him saying that there were ritualistic elements, which perhaps there were, that I don't know how to begin arguing with you. Many serial killers clearly include ritualistic elements to their crimes, to imply that these are necessarily religious in nature is nonsense.

 

[nopoirot]

Sorry for the duplicate posts. When I hit the "post" button I get a screen telling me to hit alt+s, and then I get a screen telling me to wait 45 secs and try again.

"Confession"--an admission that one has been untruthful to the police in a murder investigation for several days, by any other name . . . . And no, we're not talking about Halloween night.

The concept of "swearing oneself out of court" takes on a new dimension, when the unvarnished truth lies in contradicting someone who already has a whopping judgment against you for "calumnia,"

 

[Antony]

Don't fool yourself, the prosecution still has to prove guilt in the 2nd trial. Judge all but confirmed that there wasn't enough evidence to prove guilt at this time. He did this by making them prove the dna results were correct. Plus all the other things that will get tested if the DNA results come back the same. If they test the stain and it comes back semen and not sollecito's, Knox and Sollecito will walk.

One of the interesting questions about the case is that on day 47 the police were badly in need of something to justify holding Sollecito, when all the while there was this untested stain which was likely to be semen. The question arises: why did they focus on the bra clasp, and theatrically film themselves collecting it, instead of testing the stain?

The manner of the bra clasp film ("Look, here's the bra clasp! Here we are examining the bra clasp; here we are photographing it next to a label with the letter "Y"; here we are putting it in a sterile bag with our soiled gloves ...") rather suggests they had advance knowledge of what the test results would be. The same conclusion is suggested by the neglect of the pillowcase stain: the prosecution know perfectly well it's not Sollecito's, so they will use every argument to keep it from being tested.

Plus Rudy could walk if its not his.

Not sure if I see the reasoning here, as there is a mass of scientific evidence implicating Guede.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

nopoirot,

I do not understand your use of the word "confession." Mr. Sollecito has never said that he was in any way, shape, or form involved in the crime.

That’s pretty much the same as when 'interrogation' is used to describe any and all but Amanda's last trip to the police station.

 

[daydreamer]

Yes. If it's Sollecito's semen, Sollecito (and almost certainly Knox too) will stand rightfully convicted. If it's Guede's semen, then this mitigates very badly against Guede's current version of his story, and - if anything - supports the theory that he was the lone attacker. If it's an as-yet-unidentified man's semen, the whole case gets thrown into disarray, and even Guede's guilt comes under the microscope. If it's Silenzi's semen, or if it's not semen at all, then nothing changes.

What seems totally and utterly obvious is that the stain should be tested, and that it should have been tested before the first trial. There is simply no god reason not to test it - at worst it will not add any new significant information, but at best it could be very important.

PS My personal suspicion is that it's either Guede's semen or Meredith's saliva, with Guede's semen being the more likely.

If Rudy knew it wasn't his, wouldn't his lawyers be all over this, i.e. demanding that testing be done?

PS: It must be his !

 

[shuttlt]

There is a meme that Rudy is protecting his true accomplice or the true killer. He wouldn't want to be the one who got it tested in that case either.

 

[Antony]

Mignini's Satanic cult theory keeps running into the problem of lack of evidence. He gets around it by expanding his conspiracy theory to include a cover up of the evidence.

Are you leaving it to the rest of us to make the link with the fictitious staging of the break-in and clean-up in the Kercher case?

 

[Justinian2]

Originally Posted by Justinian2

What my arguments and posts here have shown:
1.) A twenty year old of average strength could have gained the position of the lawyer in the photo, taken a brick sized rock out of his backpack, smashed it through the window, opened the window, climbed one step higher, with the aid of the open shutter, lifted his free leg to the sill, slid in to his crotch, and then climbed into the window. The glass distribution would be similar to what was found.​

This puts you in the same vulnerable position as the back deck when you open the window and discover there was a resident inside asleep or otherwise occupied and not willing to answer a knock at the door. You can't escape fast enough to avoid discovery if the light comes on. Smashing the window from a distance and immediately ducking into the shadows would be the intelligent choice for someone that wishes to further their criminal lifestyle. Of course, intelligence is not usually associated with criminals. http://www.dumbcrooks.com/from-the-...glar-with-testicles-impaled-on-broken-window/

If we speculate, somebody in the house would have turned on a light at the sound of the rock breaking the glass. Guede could have then dropped to the ground and stayed close to the building in making his escape. In all the movies you see people wrapping their elbow in a jacket and then putting their elbow through the glass. Same thing - they're close to the glass when it breaks.

Both are plausible. The point is that the climb and entry are easy and explain all the facts.

For an inflexible person like myself, climbing up one step more - the height of one knee - from the lawyer's position in the photograph would have allowed me (or the intruder) to grab inside the open window and put one knee on the sill or to walk up the side of the building with a hand-hold on eather side of the now completely open window.

Furthermore, there's no evidence that he didn't use a pole, a ladder, a 2x4, or a rope to assist his climb.

Or what about one of those chin-up bars that you hook onto a doorway in order to do chinups?
Totally possible. Myth busted. (The myth that this must be a staged breakin)

 

[shuttlt]

Since Kestrel's post has been quoted, I ask again, is there any actual, decent evidence that Mignini ever described the murder as having been committed by a cult, Satanic or otherwise?

 

[Justinian2]

What is the point of your post? The reason the Gestapo are remembered is not because of pictures like that.

My point: It seems like the cop is very unfriendly. State super cops are usually known for being polite and courteous.

My point: It looks a lot like that Vietnam photo of an execution.

http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/20101227/5e331f_cops_12272010.jpg

 

[shuttlt]

Does the whole Satanism thing simply derive from this single quote:

Prosecutors "alleged it was some kind of Satanic rite, with Amanda allegedly first touching Meredith with the point of a knife, then slitting her throat, while Sollecito held her by the shoulders, from behind, Guede held her by an arm" and tried to sexually penetrate the victim, Maori said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/20/world/main4531537.shtml

 

[nopoirot]

I can hear it now: "If it please the court, it must be understood that, owing to language difficulties, Mr. Sollecito failed to understand Ms. Knox's instructions about what he was to recall about the evening of Nov 1. Now, we don't deny that, the same afternoon the body was discovered, he repeatedly averred that Ms. Knox had not left him the previous evening, but you have to understand . . . ."

 

[el buscador]

Does the whole Satanism thing simply derive from this single quote:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/20/world/main4531537.shtml

I don't know who first leaked/claimed/said that the murder was some kind of satanic or Halloween rite but I first heard it said on NBC national news on the 6th or 7th of November 2007 when the case went international because an American student was involved. It was stated as coming from the police/prosecutors. The garbled statements that Amanda gave were also mentioned along with her written "gift". I thought the whole thing sounded rather garbled and incredulous right from this point in time. I've never changed my mind.