Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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No, it isn't addressed. It's dismissed without any real justification. And with (still) no calculation or estimation of the total power output of the sun. None. Zero. Nada. Nothing.
Untrue - “it is essential that we distinguish the complex, electrodynamic glow discharge model of the Sun from a simple electrostatic model” http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050427sun.htm

You Ziggurat, are using a simple electrostatic model of the Sun.
This quote CONFIRMS my criticism that the EU folks can't account for the total solar power output: "These are only qualitative not quantitative descriptions". In other words, they have no idea whether or not their "model" can account for the most important feature of the sun.
Scott says in the pdf “It is NOT a simple electrostatic problem – it is a dynamic one”
But it's worse than that. FAR worse. Not only do they not HAVE the numbers, there are no POSSIBLE numbers that will work.
snip
Fix the power output and either the voltage is so large the sun will explode or the current is so large it will burn out WAY too fast. Fix the voltage so the sun doesn't explode and the current so it doesn't burn out to fast and the power output will be so low the sun won't even be visible.
Scott says in the pdf - “The detailed dynamic behaviour of every plasma cloud in outer space .is not yet fully describable by tensor algebra. Isn‘t it premature in the extreme to leap into mathematical complexity when one is still just developing a model”
Nothing works. And the reason is simple: they are wrong.
Scott says in the pdf - “he takes me to task for not having detailed quantitative values on my graphs for such quantities as voltage, altitude, temperature, and current density at a star‘s surface. We don’t know those numbers yet – we haven’t gone there to measure them.”

He also says this –

“It is modern astrophysics that demands its followers ‘believe’ in unseen, immeasurable entities such as WIMPS, MACHOs, Dark Matter, and Inflations as a matter of ‘faith’ without proof. The reification of abstractions such as point-masses, magnetic field lines, and mathematical singularities into real entities that can have an effect on matter in real space are classic theological transmogrifications”

And just to make it crystal clear –

“They put forward their assumptions as if they were universal truths. The fact that they have been voted upon and accepted by a self-involved, insular group of experts’ does not make them true.”
http://members.cox.net/dascott3/RebutTB.pdf
I ran through some calculations here, using 10^10 volts as suggested by one EU advocate. With that high a voltage, the sun would literally explode. But it still only has about 10^9 Coulombs of charge, and at 10^10 volts, we need a current of about 3.8x10^16 amps in order to provide the observed 3.8x10^26 watts. But that would discharge the sun in under a millisecond. So the model has far too high a voltage, AND far too large a current. Drop the voltage and you need to raise the current to keep the power constant, making it discharge faster. Drop the current to make it last longer and you need to raise the voltage to keep the power output sufficiently high, making it explode even more violently. Drop both the current AND the voltage by the same factor, and the lifetime remains under a millisecond even while the power drops. Lower the voltage to a realistic level and drop the current enough to last even a year, and the power output will be so low that the sun would be black.
Your using the wrong model to judge the Electric Sun Theory but you know that!

In a nutshell, your attitude to them is:

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?
 
Thunderdolts said:
These researchers say that the Sun is electric. It is a glow discharge fed by galactic currents.
Electric currents on this scale should be trivial to observe.

Where are they, Haig? No speculations, please. Just actual observations of the actual currents.
 
Impressive effort, well done. As you know Scott and others don't agree with you. "But one cannot judge the validity of a scientific opinion based on an individual’s “accreditation.” and "The answer is, I’m a layperson who has followed discovery with a particular interest in the work of independent researchers who are skeptical of the current scientific consensus" :-

Yeah, Scott will disagree probably. Luckily, I know that many many more will agree with me that disagree. Maybe you should ask Scott (mail him) to reply to the comments I made.

Nature doesn't have to follow mathematical models but mathematical models have to follow nature.

tusenfem your obviously a clever guy. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior? or is it sacrosanct?

Oh yeah, I am so clever it runs out of my nose.

Naturally, nature does not have to adhere to mathematical models, that is why we constantly improve on modeling by using real data obtained from observations. That is the way (some) progress is made. Many of the fundamentals of plasma physics have been tested, retested and then tested again, that we pretty much know that these theories and models are pretty okay.

Nuclear fusion is the only model that can explain all observations of the Sun. Now, I still have not received a qualitative and quantitative model of the Electric Sun, which you as a lay person favours. Indeed, it would be nice if the Sun turned out to be nothing else as a light bulb, however, please explain to me how it can be that I can quickly calculate what happens when the Sun is driven in a kind of Alfven heliospheric current system, and Scott cs. cannot even come close to show anything of real value (i.e. plots without even values on the axes!!!!!!)

Well, it's Christmas now, so I should stay nice, and keep it with that.
 
I don't agree. this quote from HERE makes the point IMHO: (my bold)

Sorry, Haig, to spoil your Xmas, but that link is one big red herring, if not cow manure. Where exactly does it say how the solar output is produced and what currents are flowing and what resistivity and what is actually driving the currents and what is the magnetic signature of these currents and why are these currents never measured, neither in the equatorial plane nor above the poles of the Sun.

Why not go build a snow man outside?
 
Yeah, Scott will disagree probably. Luckily, I know that many many more will agree with me that disagree. Maybe you should ask Scott (mail him) to reply to the comments I made.
Yes, definitely. Sure, but science isn't about consensus or shouldn't be! No need, surely he reads the forum just like TT.
Nuclear fusion is the only model that can explain all observations of the Sun.
So your saying it can't be falsified? That's a worry.
Sorry, Haig, to spoil your Xmas, but that link is one big red herring, if not cow manure. Where exactly does it say how the solar output is produced and what currents are flowing and what resistivity and what is actually driving the currents and what is the magnetic signature of these currents and why are these currents never measured, neither in the equatorial plane nor above the poles of the Sun.
I'm sure, I covered all that in my previous posts ;)
Why not go build a snow man outside?
On my way :dig: (or am I digging a hole for myself?)
 
All the details? Nope, never asked for that. All I asked for was some very basic order-of-magnitude type stuff. Given an estimated voltage difference (which your source claims to have), you can quite easily calculate the required charge on the sun: q = rP/k where r is the radius of the sun (7x10^8 m), P is the potential (10^10 V), and k is the electric constant (9x10^9 Vm/C). That gives us a charge of around 8x10^8 coulombs. Not so hard, was it? The fact that you couldn`t figure that out doesn`t speak well of your understanding of electricity.

The field from this amount of charge would be about 14 V/m at the surface of the sun (E = kq/r^2), which would produce a force on protons at the surface of the sun of about 2.3x10^-18 Newtons. The gravity at the surface of the sun is about 274 m/s^2, which means the gravitational force on a proton is about 4.6x10^-25 N. So the force on protons from electrostatic repulsion away from the sun will be about 5x10^6 times greater than the attraction of gravity keeping them on the sun. And it will accelerate protons outwards at more than 10^8 times the acceleration of gravity on earth. If the sun had that kind of charge, it would explode. Literally.

I did all this without any funding. And it demonstrates quite simply that the idea is nonsense. Why don`t proponents do these sort of basic calculations? Is it because they can`t? That would be rather pathetic. Or is it because they don`t dare subject their theories to any serious examination?

I don't know why I am doing this because it has proven to be useless in the past, but anyway here goes one more try. Michael Mozina or Haig, I am asking you to show us where, why and how Ziggurat is wrong in the above analysis. His calculations are simple: there are no integrals, no differential equations, there are only some easy calculations and rather straightforward concepts. Please help this layman understand why your electric sun theories work and Ziggurat is wrong.
 
Electric Sun & Nuclear Fusion I

Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?
So your saying it can't be falsified? That's a worry.
In principle, of course it can be, or more correctly could have been falsified. But today, in light of present knowledge, probably not. But you must remember that science is a "moving target". Ideas, hypotheses, theories, models & etc. don't stand still, but rather evolve with time. Nuclear fusion, as a power source in the solar/stellar interiors, has already been tested in the manner you are looking for, and has already been confirmed. There are no mainstream scientists at work today, so far as I know, to test the fundamental question, whether or not nuclear fusion is the ultimate power source for the Sun because that question has already been researched & verified. Time to move on and study the details of the process. Indeed, if that fundamental idea is wrong (an extremely unlikely event), then it will eventually become obvious; how, after all, can one observationally & consistently confirm the details of a process that does not actually exist?

Back in the mid to late 1800's, when scientists began to study the Sun seriously, the assumption was that the ultimate power source was heating by the conversion of gravitational potential energy into heat energy by gravitational contraction. This is a perfectly reasonable and viable idea. Prominent figures in this effort were Hermann von Helmholtz & William Thomson (Lord Kelvin). Helmholtz derived a likely age for the Sun of 22,000,000 years in the 1850's, while Thomson later derived a likely age range of 10,000,000 to 500,000,000 years. And that was as old as the Sun could be if that were the primary source of heat. But as it became obvious that Earth was much older than that, literally billions of years old, this idea of gravitational contraction as the ultimate source of energy fell out of favor. It simply could not be made consistent with the obviously much older age for the Sun.

But by the turn of the 1900's, radioactivity has been discovered and nuclear physics began to be a serious science. It was quickly realized that nuclear energy could power a much older Sun. Ernest Rutherford suggested radioactivity (that's nuclear fission) as the power source in 1904. But it did not take long for scientists to recognize the mass deficit in heavier nuclei; this is the fact that the mass of a nucleus is measurably less than the sum of the masses of its constituent particles. This was understood as mass converted to binding energy, in accordance with Einstein's famous equivalence E = Mc2. This is all reviewed in detail by Sir Arthur Eddington in his landmark book The Internal Constitution of the Stars (1926, 1930; see chapter XI "The Source of Stellar Energy"; book still in print through Dover publications). Eddington points out that the energy involved in this "mass deficit" is quite enough to power a Sun as long as 100,000,000,000 years, easily long enough to settle the age problem for the Sun & Earth.

This marks the foundation of the hypothesis that nuclear fusion is the ultimate power source for the Sun. Eddington knew that the energy was enough to fit the observations, but neither he nor anyone else knew of any specific process by which that energy could be released (they knew radioactivity was not that process). Eddington did not suggest any specific process. But Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar took the next step in his equally landmark book An Introduction to the Study of Stellar Structure (University of Chicago Press 1939, still in print through Dover Publications; see chapter XII "Stellar Energy"). Chandrasekhar outlined a series of plausible nuclear reactions and demonstrated that the energy release in these reactions were consistent with observed characteristics of stars.

At the same time Chandrasekhar's book came out, Hans Bethe led the charge in the next major step. He proved specifically that the basic proton - proton (PP)and Carbon - Nitrogen - Oxygen (CNO) fusion reaction chains were entirely consistent with and allowed by nuclear physics and quantum mechanics and would in fact power a star (see Bethe & Critchfield, 1938; Bethe, 1939a; Bethe, 1939b; and also of interest are Bethe & Marshak, 1939 and Bethe, 1940). These papers marked the transition of nuclear fusion as a stellar energy source from an hypothesis to a genuine theory, with a solid foundation in theoretical & experimental physics.

But of course this was followed quickly by WWII, atomic (fission) bombs and hydrogen (fusion) bombs and very rapid advances in both theoretical and experimental knowledge of nuclear physics, and specifically the reactions attributed as the source of stellar energy. These reactions were heavily studied in the development of fusion weapons, and that knowledge made its way into the next major study published after Eddington & Chandrasekhar, the book Structure and Evolution of the Stars by Martin Schwarzschild (Princeton University Press, 1958; still in print through Dover Publications; see chapter 2, section 10 "Nuclear Reactions"). By now the rates & energies of the specific reactions expected in stars were known and utilized by Schwarzschild. He was the first to offer this kind of detail and the first to take advantage of the post WWII knowledge derived from weapon studies. He was also the first to expand the topic from simply stellar structure to stellar evolution, in detail.

By this time it was well established that these nuclear reactions were undeniable in terms of both theoretical & experimental physics. They were known to be physically possible & probable. The only question that remained was that, while they were known to be probable, were they known to actually happen in actual stars? This was assumed, and these processes assumed to be in fact the source of stellar energy, because there was no other physical process known which could be consistent with observed stellar properties, which remains the case to this day. But considering that a stellar core is not directly or indirectly observable by any means available at that time, how is one to observationally verify that nuclear fusion really is the ultimate power source for stars? The answer was recognized immediately: Neutrinos.

Early research revealed neutrinos from the Sun, but detected too few of them, which implied far less nuclear fusion in the Sun than was required to match its observed energy output, a serious problem. But eventually the theory & experiment of neutrino oscillations solved that problem, and it is now known that the actual observed flow of neutrinos from the sun is consistent with the rates and types of nuclear fusion reactions theoretically expected in the Sun. See my own webpage Solar Fusion & Neutrinos for a detailed discussion of this part of the story, including copious references.

This determination of the solar neutrino flux provides the first direct observational confirmation that nuclear fusion is ongoing in the solar core, and that the rates & types of reactions are as predicted before the neutrino observations were made. It is important to point out that each of the nuclear reactions generates neutrinos of predictable and precise energy. The observed energy spectrum of the neutrinos will therefore tell the observer which reactions are being seen (from the energy) and what the reaction rates are (from the count of neutrinos at the given energy). These types & rates precisely match what was expected prior to the observations being made. You ask "Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?". Had the neutrino flux been absent, it would have falsified the nuclear fusion theory of stellar energy. But in fact it confirmed that theory. And it confirmed it not just in general but in detail.

In addition we now have the tools of helioseismology that allow us to indirectly observe the physical state of the deep solar interior in real time. That tool reveals that astrophysical models for solar/stellar interiors, developed over decades of theoretical research, are in fact consistent with the presently observed physical state of the solar interior. Most importantly, the temperature structure of the solar interior is consistent with prior theoretical expectations. That temperature structure is what sets the rate for each given type of reaction. So, the implication of the neutrino data that the types & rates of nuclear reaction are as predicted is that the temperature structure must also be as predicted. But we see that helioseismology, which more directly probes the temperature structure, produces the same result. So both observations, helioseismology and neutrinos, are mutually supportive and both independently supportive of the fusion theory. This makes the conclusion that nuclear fusion powers the sun a very strong conclusion on both observational & theoretical grounds.

Bottom Line: You ask "Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?" The answer is "Yes". That "anything" you refer to has already been done and the results are in. Nuclear fusion in the stellar core is verified. It could have been falsified had the results of observation been different, but it was not falsified, it was verified. For further reading, I suggest the book Nuclear Physics of Stars by Christian Iliades, Wiley-VCH, 2007. The online Lecture Notes on Helioseismology by Christensen-Dalsgaard are a good resource for basic helioseismology.
 
Above, we have a well though out systematic description of the processes that power the sun, with a historical perspective. Can any of the electric sun people tell their side in a similar manner?
 
Please help this layman understand why your electric sun theories work and Ziggurat is wrong.
I can try.
So both observations, helioseismology and neutrinos, are mutually supportive and both independently supportive of the fusion theory. This makes the conclusion that nuclear fusion powers the sun a very strong conclusion on both observational & theoretical grounds.
Thanks. So it's an accepted fact.
Above, we have a well though out systematic description of the processes that power the sun, with a historical perspective. Can any of the electric sun people tell their side in a similar manner?
Sure they can:-

Eddington the mathematician would see a star as a simple thing. Mathematicians require simple models to allow a mathematical solution. But as spacecraft have expanded our view of the Sun it is clear that that bright ball of plasma is not 'a simple thing.'

If external electrical currents power stars and galaxies, the power source is probably not located in the stars. The situation is similar to viewing from space the twinkling lights of great cities on Earth, which give no indication of where the power is being generated.

The Electric Sun Hypothesis
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

Our Misunderstood Sun
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=ah63dzac

Twinkle, twinkle electric star
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=x49g6gsf

On the Sun’s Electric-Field
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/SunsEfield92210.pdf
 
I can try.
Thanks. So it's an accepted fact.
Sure they can:-

Eddington the mathematician would see a star as a simple thing. Mathematicians require simple models to allow a mathematical solution. But as spacecraft have expanded our view of the Sun it is clear that that bright ball of plasma is not 'a simple thing.'

If external electrical currents power stars and galaxies, the power source is probably not located in the stars. The situation is similar to viewing from space the twinkling lights of great cities on Earth, which give no indication of where the power is being generated.

The Electric Sun Hypothesis
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm

Our Misunderstood Sun
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=ah63dzac

Twinkle, twinkle electric star
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=x49g6gsf

On the Sun’s Electric-Field
http://www.electric-cosmos.org/SunsEfield92210.pdf

More of the same: All you people have are baseless criticisms of mainstream theory and lots of links and silly analogies. You never include any description, analysis or quantitative details of your theories. How about a refutation (with some justifying mathematics) of Ziggurat's demonstration of the impossibility of an electric sun?
I think you could benefit yourself a great deal by trying to learn some real science and mathematics (if you're interested) so you could gain a genuine understanding of how the sun works.
 
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Yes, definitely. Sure, but science isn't about consensus or shouldn't be! No need, surely he reads the forum just like TT.
So your saying it can't be falsified? That's a worry.
I'm sure, I covered all that in my previous posts ;)
On my way :dig: (or am I digging a hole for myself?)

Did I write that? NO! Learn to read!
I wrote that at the moment the fusion model is the only model that can explain all observations.
 
You Ziggurat, are using a simple electrostatic model of the Sun.

So give me an alternative method to calculate total power output. Or hell, just total available energy will do.

Scott says in the pdf “It is NOT a simple electrostatic problem – it is a dynamic one”

That is not an explanation, that is an excuse. An excuse for failure.

Scott says in the pdf - “The detailed dynamic behaviour of every plasma cloud in outer space .is not yet fully describable by tensor algebra. Isn‘t it premature in the extreme to leap into mathematical complexity when one is still just developing a model”

A total energy budget doesn't require a lot of mathematical complexity. And the reason is simple: making the system complex won't add energy. If you can't get the energy right with a simple model, you won't get it right with a complex one either.

Scott says in the pdf - “he takes me to task for not having detailed quantitative values on my graphs for such quantities as voltage, altitude, temperature, and current density at a star‘s surface. We don’t know those numbers yet – we haven’t gone there to measure them.”

Again: the problem is that NO numbers will work. This is, yet again, simply an exercise in making excuses on Scott's part, and yours.

And just to make it crystal clear –

“They put forward their assumptions as if they were universal truths.

That's a pretty good description of the EU folks. They don't understand the standard solar model, they don't understand electromagnetism, they don't understand plasmas, and yet they assume that electric phenomena dominate the sun. Why? Because Birkeland took some pretty pictures of a brass ball surrounded by partially ionized gas?

Your using the wrong model to judge the Electric Sun Theory but you know that!

You don't have a model for your "Electric Sun Theory" but you know that.

Let me ask you a question. Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?

Sure. For example, if the solar power output was too high for fusion to account for, that would falsify it. That's not the case, though. But it IS the case that the power output is too high for any electric model to work. Which is why those models are already falsified. You have done nothing to actually argue to the contrary. You have produced no mechanism by which electromagnetism can supply sufficient power, and neither have any of your sources. Hell, you and your sources haven't even tried. Doesn't that make you wonder, even a little bit, whether or not maybe they might not be right?
 
Scott says in the pdf - "he takes me to task for not having detailed quantitative values on my graphs for such quantities as voltage, altitude, temperature, and current density at a star‘s surface. We don’t know those numbers yet -- we haven’t gone there to measure them."
Again: the problem is that NO numbers will work. This is, yet again, simply an exercise in making excuses on Scott's part, and yours.


It is also an admission on Scott's part that he/they are unable to assemble a quantitative explanation for their nutty conjecture. And without a quantitative model, there is no model at all.

You don't have a model for your "Electric Sun Theory" but you know that.


Correct. Those 100 year old looks-like-a-bunny pictures do not constitute a solar model, regardless of the dishonest arguments and uninformed subjective guesses put forth by any of the electric Sun crackpots.
 
Electric Sun & Nuclear Fusion II

So, the implication of the neutrino data that the types & rates of nuclear reaction are as predicted is that the temperature structure must also be as predicted. But we see that helioseismology, which more directly probes the temperature structure, produces the same result. So both observations, helioseismology and neutrinos, are mutually supportive and both independently supportive of the fusion theory. This makes the conclusion that nuclear fusion powers the sun a very strong conclusion on both observational & theoretical grounds.
Thanks. So it's an accepted fact.
It is exactly that. Of course, in principle it is still falsifiable. However, in practice, in order to falsify the theory that nuclear fusion powers the Sun (and stars), one would have to falsify the physics of the standard theory used to derive the high core temperatures, falsify the interpretation of helioseismological observations that verify the high core temperature, and falsify interpretation of neutrino observations that support the high core temperature. This will be harder done than said, because all of the theory & observations I have mentioned here are rooted in very fundamental physics. So falsifying any of it will require a significant modification of the entire discipline of physics. So you see there is very little chance that this falsification can be carried out.

Keep in mind my "bottom line":

Bottom Line: You ask "Is there anything that would falsify the mainstream view of Nuclear fusion in the stellar interior?" The answer is "Yes". That "anything" you refer to has already been done and the results are in. Nuclear fusion in the stellar core is verified. It could have been falsified had the results of observation been different, but it was not falsified, it was verified. For further reading, I suggest the book Nuclear Physics of Stars by Christian Iliades, Wiley-VCH, 2007. The online Lecture Notes on Helioseismology by Christensen-Dalsgaard are a good resource for basic helioseismology.


If external electrical currents power stars and galaxies, the power source is probably not located in the stars. The situation is similar to viewing from space the twinkling lights of great cities on Earth, which give no indication of where the power is being generated.
No, the situation is in no way similar. We have explored the space around the Sun, in all directions, with spacecraft. We have actually flown right through where those currents are supposed to be, with instruments designed specifically to detect & measure electric currents. Guess what? The currents are not there? That's why the situation is completely different. Direct, in situ observations, clearly show that the currents are not there. If we know that the currents are not there, then why should we rely on them as a power source for the Sun, when we have a perfectly good nuclear alternative? Why is your way better than the standard way?

Now, if that were not enough, how about this? We know, thanks to those spacecraft, that the space around the Sun is filled with a "solar wind" (or "stellar wind"), made up of a roughly equal number of relatively evenly mixed protons & electrons, carrying the solar magnetic field along with them. So how would one get an electric current to flow towards the sun, while it is ramming headlong into the solar wind flowing away from the Sun, carrying along with it a magnetic field, also moving away from the Sun? The answer is that one would not. The physics of electromagnetism, which the "electric Sun" people are supposed to know so well, make it physically impossible for the electric currents they claim are powering the Sun to exist at all.

So, what do we have here? We have direct observations which directly show that the currents are not there. Furthermore, we have very basic physics which shows that the currents cannot be there in any case. Mutual agreement between observation & theory, which mutual agreement directly falsifies the electric Sun hypothesis.

How do your heroes of the electric Sun respond to this?
 
So give me an alternative method to calculate total power output. Or hell, just total available energy will do.

So how about using the standard method? When did Bruce the sun had a external energy source? Why in your mind *must* an electric sun have a *completely external* power source?
confused.gif
 
That is because this specific individual refuses to get into any real scientific discussion,

So you start off with a lie to justify a personal attack?

does not understand the papers he quotes and cites as support for his claims

Two lies in a row.... How cute.

(and then turn out to work against him when one actually reads these papers)

Like?

and when asked to defend himself, this individual starts claiming that "it is not my model,

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news here for you, but *I* did not invent PC/EU theory, cathode sun theories, electric sun theories, electric comet theories, GR theory, QM theory, etc. You'll just have to deal with that reality sooner or later.

it is that of Alfie or Birkie,"

The fact is that these two individuals were the creators or PC theory and cathode sun theories. What did you expect me to do about it?

and that was the end then of the discussion, apart from the same old pictures that get shown again (Birkeland trying to create Saturn's rings in the Terrella experiment, next to a picture of the Sun in X-rays).

Of course I've pointed you to that NY Times article now a number of times on the various speeches he gave about "cathode suns". I guess the denial thing is the primary self defense mechanism around here. If you don't want to deal with it, just deny it ever existed.

Oh, by the way, the individual we are talking about is you MM.

And you have no business bringing *ME* into the conversation. Unfortunately since most of your fellow EU haters haven't ever bothered to read the actual materials in question, and most of them are therefore completely clueless as to the actual "science" involved, the only thing left is pure personal attack. Yawn
 
So how about using the standard method? When did Bruce the sun had a external energy source? Why in your mind *must* an electric sun have a *completely external* power source? [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif[/qimg]

Bruce isn't the only electric sun proponent we're talking about, and whether or not it's the only power source doesn't matter, electricity (external OR internal) cannot be an even significant contributor to the power output. The numbers don't work by many, many orders of magnitude. But if it's not a significant contributor to the total power output, then we're not talking about an electric sun model, we're still talking about a stellar fusion model, even if it's not the standard stellar fusion model.

But then, just like Haig, you've always shied away from actual numbers. Which is why you've persisted in believing this nonsense for so many years.
 
I don't know why I am doing this because it has proven to be useless in the past, but anyway here goes one more try. Michael Mozina or Haig, I am asking you to show us where, why and how Ziggurat is wrong in the above analysis.

It *assumes* that the entire energy source of the sun is *external* to the sun. Why?

I'd like a quick show of hands here. How many of the actual participants in this thread besides Tusenfum and myself have actually read Cosmic Plasma? I get the distinct impression that the whole lot of you are couch potato critics without any real clue how Alfven actually presented these ideas.
 
Bruce isn't the only electric sun proponent we're talking about, and whether or not it's the only power source doesn't matter, electricity (external OR internal) cannot be an even significant contributor to the power output. The numbers don't work by many, many orders of magnitude. But if it's not a significant contributor to the total power output, then we're not talking about an electric sun model, we're still talking about a stellar fusion model, even if it's not the standard stellar fusion model.

Bruce's discharge theories were applied to a standard stellar fusion model. Whatever you wish to call it, it's still an "EU" orientation from the photosphere outward.

But then, just like Haig, you've always shied away from actual numbers. Which is why you've persisted in believing this nonsense for so many years.

I haven't shied away from numbers. I have provided a boat-load of numbers contained in various papers and books, most of which the vast majority of you *refuse* to actually read for yourselves. Somehow it's my personal responsibility to bark math for you on command....or else. By your logic, GR and QM theory must also blow chunks too. :)

You all have this *intense emotional need* to "dumb down" the whole EU concept to treat it in a grossly oversimplied manner. I guess you figure you're going to "debunk" every single possible "electric sun" theory with a single line of math in your mind. Sorry, but that is just silly nonsense.
 
It *assumes* that the entire energy source of the sun is *external* to the sun. Why?

I'd like a quick show of hands here. How many of the actual participants in this thread besides Tusenfum and myself have actually read Cosmic Plasma? I get the distinct impression that the whole lot of you are couch potato critics without any real clue how Alfven actually presented these ideas.


I get the idea that not one single argument presented by any electric Sun crackpot shows any understanding of anything Alfvén wrote. After all, his material has been reviewed here in this thread and found to be wholly lacking in support for the nutty notion that the Sun is electric.
 
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