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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
I was referring to this quote in my comment regarding in the presence of police:


Quote:
LG: I accept the reproof. He asked why she didn't tell the penitentiary police. May I object to this question? She wrote it in the memorandum of the 7th, on the following morning, to the police that were around her.She wrote it, it is in the dossier of this trial!
CP: That is not true!


So to clarify it should be stated that it was written in the presence of the penitentiary police that were around her according to her lawyer but that is disputed by Patrick's lawyer.

It is a matter of debate as to whether the quote is more helpful than harmful. I make it clear that it is my opinion that it is more helpful. Amanda's lawyer also uses the same quote when Amanda is testifying.

Clarify ???
No RM that 'non - point' is not what CP is disputing :)

He is disputing (from memory) that AK withdrew her false accusation ...it was a standard trope when faced with questions about the issue [w.r.t the 'knowledge' she had by the 10th especially] to claim she had already withdrawn the charge. Nobody bought it.

Glad to know he is not disputing she wrote it in the presence of the penitentiary police.
 
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I'm guessing Hellmann will invite a thorough and exhaustive review of the bra fastener and the knife that will take months and consume the attention of the public and the media. Then on a hot Friday afternoon in July, he will declare that the knife is out, the bra fastener is unresolved, but the verdict stands because of all the other evidence, which they never got around to examining. Then the Supreme Court will take up the subject in a leisurely way, eventually concluding that the evidence is compelling, but not quite good enough to sustain the conviction. Amanda and Raffaele will go free after spending at least five years in prison.

That's very cynical. However, I cynically agree that people aren't likely to change their minds if it means that they have to admit to themselves that they were wrong.

What is the reason that people have this "wrongphobia"? (I just made that term up)
Wrongphobia (I'm going off the deep end now - glub) happens because if a person tries hard to be right and is still wrong, that he could also make a mistake that ends his life. And THAT would make anyone phobic about life (or death).

Consequently wrongphobia prevents all the people of the Italian judiciary and all the other guilters from ever doing anything that would reveal that they know they are wrong (even if everybody else knows that they are wrong)

Wrongphobia is the world's #1 malady.

The reason that I can launch such stupidities as this diatribe is that I don't have wrongphobia. I can say "I'm wrong, so what?"
 
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coherent narratives

People kept goading for this. Eventually I gave a minutes thought to it and provided one. There was one comment which missed the point. Now a while later we are back to people claiming that they have never heard a coherent narrative. As far as I can see people aren't interested in discussing a coherent narrative and would far rather discuss the DNA on the knife, or this silly picture of Amanda.

shuttlt,

Could you link back to it? Does it have a TOD? Can you explain why you would criticize Bruce for not releasing information and never (AFAIK) criticize ILE for what they failed to release, or released only under court pressure. The negative TMB tests, and the "too low" readings come immediately to mind.
 
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Glad to know he is not disputing she wrote it in the presence of the penitentiary police.

He doesn't need to - its a non-point. The salient issue under discussion was that she didn't withdraw the false accusation.

AK has already answered questions, from CP IIRC, that the memo of the 6th was freely written with no suggestions, duress, 'clips' etc from the cops & it has never been suggested that the 7th was any different.
 
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The catalyst for the hate campaign.

I'm sick of seeing this skated around. I believe it can be established precisely what catalysed the hate-campaign against Amanda Knox which puzzled me for so long, and I would guess continues to puzzle many.

I first became aware of the plight of AK and RS about the time they were indicted in late 2008, and my attention was actually drawn to it by this extraordinary media and internet hate-campaign that had gained serious momentum by then.

But I noticed the "my people killed your people!" quote appear all over the media, and no matter how I parsed it, or in whatever tableaux I tried to imagine her saying it, it just sounded completely and utterly bizarre - simply not believable, in fact. The quote was never sourced no matter where it was reproduced.

It wasn't until about the middle of this year that I found out where it originated, in an article written for a Seattle journal called "The Stranger" by one Charles Mudede, who is co-editor.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=504236

Odd, is it not, that he finds it necessary to "protect" the identity of his "source" and "old friend"? Why would this jewish person be afraid of having this 'quote' attributed to them?

Because in my experience it is "antisemites" who have reason to be afraid of being "outed", never their accusers. Think about it - to be found "guilty" of "antisemitism" is, quite literally, the Kiss Of Death to almost ANY professional career in the former West, particularly the US, where the baleful American Defamation League (sic) will mobilise in an instant to ensure it.

Mudede himself is perceived as having an vindictive, racist "blame whitey" agenda, which he cloaks under Marxist ‘ideology’. He refers to 'race' and 'racism' frequently, but expects it to be understood (as it largely is) that 'racism' means white hatred of coloured people. He is tolerated in Seattle because the climate of Political Correctness makes him "right on" in the view of hyper-liberal 'intellectuals' ("intellectual" and "liberal" are practically synonymous in most peoples' minds).

At the time he wrote it in February 2008, the arrest of Patrik Lumumba and his release and substitution with Rudy Guede were recent events, and the misinformation campaign (lies) from the Perugian prosecutors office had been in full swing for some months, little of it refuted at that time.

I doubt Mudede was better informed than anyone else, had no reason to be convinced that Guede was indeed the murderer, and perceived it as an out-and-out - you guessed it - race issue.

He would have heard, of course, about Amanda's "accusation" of Lumumba and the assertions by the Perugian cops that they had only arrested him because of her, and I believe that he was inflamed by it. SO - he decided to use his position in the media to "give it to" Amanda in the form of his little tale about "Matthew".

(I believe he had read her facebook page which mentions "my inner-nazi", had seen the Youtube video in which some one makes the crass "you dirty jew" remark, and it is these that gave him the idea.)

I exchanged a couple of emails with Mudede a few months ago (I hadn't expected a response, but I guess my accusatory tone got to him). When I asked him why anyone should believe he hadn't simply made the story up (“Whatever, for all I know, you completely invented your never-to-be heard-from-again "friend" and his (frankly utterly implausible) little anecdote”)., he had this to say;

“sorry, the person who told me that, and I named where he worked, and so he and his co-workers knew who i was talking about, never came out and challenged my reporting of his words.

my source is as good as gold.

sorry to tell you this.”

No-one has “challenged my reporting of his words”? Now, I don’t know if it's simply disingenuousness, or if he simply isn't too bright, but the ONLY person in a position to come forward and say Amanda didn’t say something is Amanda. More to the point is that its conspicuous that no-one has come forward to corroborate what he claims. Nothing, The sound of crickets. His little story sits there, an orphan from reality, but continuing to do great harm to Amanda Knox.

I believe it would serve Amanda's interests if someone representing her in Seattle forced Mudede to either provide details of his "sources" and the context in which Amanda allegedly said what he claims, or make a complete public retraction. By that, I mean legal action, straight up - he certainly isn't going to publically admit to lying otherwise. To be honest, I'm surprised this hasn't already been done.

Perhaps he'll read this and claim I'm defaming him? Go for it Charlie.
 
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halides 1 "The mountain of forensic evidence turned out to be a molehill."

Hardly, as it secured a conviction in the first place!

I sometimes think that you overlook the fact that the pair were convicted unanimously. All that has happened since, is that they are going through the appeals process and that they have been given a review of two pieces of evidence.
 
Supernaut. There is no hate campaign!

What does exist is a large body of fair-minded people who outraged at attempts to pervert the course of justice. O.J. Simpson still looms large in the minds of many.
 
cognitive dissonance

That's very cynical. However, I cynically agree that people aren't likely to change their minds if it means that they have to admit to themselves that they were wrong.

What is the reason that people have this "wrongphobia"? (I just made that term up)

Justinian2,

Cognitive dissonance is closely related to what you are talking about. Amazingly, the wikipedia entry on cognitive dissonance is not half-bad. One of my academic advisors told me that when an experiment turned out the way you expected, that's good. When it turns out opposite to what you expected, that's even better, because now you have learned something.
 
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That's very cynical. However, I cynically agree that people aren't likely to change their minds if it means that they have to admit to themselves that they were wrong.

What is the reason that people have this "wrongphobia"? (I just made that term up)
[...]

Actually, I'm making myself wrong now. I didn't just make up the term 'wrongphobia'.

Atychiphobia : Fear of failure. People with this type of phobia see things (attempts in life) as black or white. This phobia is commonly linked to the fear of being wrong, since being wrong is seen (by phobic individuals) as a failed attempt at something.

Time will tell. Do the guilters and the Italian judiciary have Atychiphobia?
 
not at all sure what you mean

Supernaut. There is no hate campaign!

What does exist is a large body of fair-minded people who outraged at attempts to pervert the course of justice. O.J. Simpson still looms large in the minds of many.

colonelhall,

Who is attempting to pervert the course of justice, and how are they doing it?
 
halides 1 "The mountain of forensic evidence turned out to be a molehill."

Hardly, as it secured a conviction in the first place!

I sometimes think that you overlook the fact that the pair were convicted unanimously. All that has happened since, is that they are going through the appeals process and that they have been given a review of two pieces of evidence.

Probably the two most important pieces of evidence as well as the witness whose testimony contradicts the alibi. As has been pointed out, he has left open the option of a new review of other evidence at a later time in this appeal. I agree with the poster that indicated if these three things fall apart then there is not a case left to be made for guilt.
 
I never said Charlie is lying. the people involved and the families work for the freedom of the wrongfully convicted. They have no duty to provide you, or any guilters with fuel for their crackpot statement analysis or other smear.
Absolutely they have no duty. That being the case we must question whether they are only revealing what helps there case. So long as we're all open about this, and the consequences, then fine.

Frankly, complaining that the defense withholds anything from the public disgusts me.
This is not a question of the defence withholding stuff. It is a question of what information this internet debate has access to. The trial had access to a whole bunch of stuff that we do not. A subset of that has been released by people who have a 'religious' mission to prove innocence. Clearly the question has to be asked, how much can we trust an impression of the case built on such a subset?

All of the incriminating evidence, along with multiple lies were released to the media from the day one by ILE and prosecution.
All the incriminating evidence? Please! What percentage of photo's, what percentage of the diaries, what percentage of anything has made it's way into the public this way? The sole direct source we have into the casefile is Charlie and Bruce etc. Sure there have been press conferences and some quotes from the diaries, but it's not as if the prosecution, or anybody connected with it has been running an internet campaign and claimed to have access to the entire case file. The day PMF claims to have access to the case file is the day we have some kind of parity.

They withheld arbitrarily what they thought were not helpful for the conviction, though. Why don't you concentrate on what the prosecution withholds not only from the public, but from the defense?
This is discussed ad nausium. Issues of FOA not releasing documents that are harmful to Amanda hasn't received nearly so much of an airing. Certainly they are under no moral obligation to do so, but then we have to take that into account in our certainties about the case.
 
Why should I overlook Massei's errors

halides 1 "The mountain of forensic evidence turned out to be a molehill."

Hardly, as it secured a conviction in the first place!

I sometimes think that you overlook the fact that the pair were convicted unanimously. All that has happened since, is that they are going through the appeals process and that they have been given a review of two pieces of evidence.

colonelhall,

Massei violated a fundamental rule of forensic genetics in his discussion of the clasp. I suppose this was done unanimously, but one would need to poll the rest of the judges to be certain. Why should I put stock into what he has to say under these circumstances? On the other hand, the review of only two pieces of evidence is a cause for concern. If the reviewers do not ask for the electronic data files, standard operating procedures, and the machine logs, then I will be convinced that this was not a serious attempt at a review.
 
London John, I think that you will find that those people who are sickened at the way that the Knox P.R. machine has attempted to distort the facts of this case, have never climed that the DNA evidence is the main plank of the argument. All along they have pointed to the fact that DNA is just one element of a pile of evidence against the pair and that even if they were to be discarded there is evidence enough to convict.

You probably need to read back on forums that are fixated on the guilt of Knox and Sollecito. I recommend reading between December 2009 and September 2010.

As for your comment: "the truth seems now to have dawned on some people that the knife is very likely to be thrown out" I fail to see where you get this idea.

You'll need to read those same forums from about 19th December 2010 onwards. You'll particularly enjoy cross-matching the views of particular posters with the same posters' earlier views from the previous period....

The recent decision to have a review of the DNA seems to have been hailed by Knox supporters as a major victory. Once again, this is an example of the media being manipulated. There is just as much chance of this being a major disaster for Knox.

No, there isn't.

That possibility seems to only exist in the minds of those who desperately want to believe in Knox's and Sollecito's guilt. The knife evidence will almost certainly get thrown out due to grave errors in the collection and testing process. And the bra clasp is pretty likely to get thrown out, on account of the grave errors in the collection process, and also potentially because of the conflicting and confusing nature of the multiple DNA on the clasp - and the difficulty therefore of matching it conclusively to Sollecito.


But feel free to carry on convincing yourself that the knife actually contains abundant amounts of Meredith's DNA on the tang that will be found on re-testing, or that Sollecito's DNA is suddenly going to jump out crystal-clear from the bra clasp. Enjoy the fantasy, because I'm afraid it isn't going to happen. I think that somewhere deep inside you might well know that too.
 
I believe it would serve Amanda's interests if someone representing her in Seattle forced Mudede to either provide details of his "sources" and the context in which Amanda allegedly said what he claims, or make a complete public retraction. By that, I mean legal action, straight up - he certainly isn't going to publically admit to lying otherwise. To be honest, I'm surprised this hasn't already been done.

The people representing Amanda's interests are her parents and step-father and I can understand why they wouldn't want to be bothered with an unsourced quote in an article almost three years old. Why draw attention to it? I for one had never heard this German/Jew thing until you just now linked to it.

Do you really think this had anything to do with her conviction?
 
Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
Glad to know he is not disputing she wrote it in the presence of the penitentiary police.


He doesn't need to - its a non-point. The salient issue under discussion was that she didn't withdraw the false accusation.

AK has already answered questions, from CP IIRC, that the memo of the 6th was freely written with no suggestions, duress, 'clips' etc from the cops & it has never been suggested that the 7th was any different.

I was simply clarifying my comment after your questioning of it when you said:

Nor was in written 'in the presence of the police' - it was freely written in prison. Unless you have information that AK or her lawyers never advised the court of.

That was the issue I was referring to. The other issue you are referring to is an old one that you have brought up several times before with other posters, IIRC, and one that I was not addressing in my response to your questioning of my post.
 
Actually, I'm making myself wrong now. I didn't just make up the term 'wrongphobia'.

Atychiphobia : Fear of failure. People with this type of phobia see things (attempts in life) as black or white. This phobia is commonly linked to the fear of being wrong, since being wrong is seen (by phobic individuals) as a failed attempt at something.

Time will tell. Do the guilters and the Italian judiciary have Atychiphobia?
It's so obvious that I feel silly pointing it out, but surely this argument goes both ways? Perhaps there is some pathological reason why you are convinced of their innocence?
 
If Charlie is lying, then of course him saying he doesn't have it stops being odd. You do highlight a problem with the evidence base for our debate. Charlie and others with access to the family are one of the key sources for documents and photographs relating to the case, yet as you indicate, they may well be withholding documents that they believe could be used to support a pro-guilt argument. Bruce admits to doing this. For all we know their source withholds documents from them as well.

Have you ever read the Aeneid, shuttlt.....?
 
eats shoots and leaves

:confused:

Can you point out where he does write it? The quote you gave surely doesn't say that.
________________________


Fair enough, let's untangle Raffaele's haywire grammar.


"The investigators asked me if she had told me to
say anything but (unfortunately, I now say) itʹs not like that: all I have said, I have said
[fatto] of my own free will.
"


On my reading, all four of these statements are entailed:

1. The cops asked me whether Amanda had once told me to say anything.
2. I am now saying that Amanda never asked me to say anything.
3. Everything that I said to the cops I said of my own free will.
4. It's unfortunate that I am only now saying this, because had I been saying this earlier---to the same cops---I might not be in the present unfortunate situation.

It's clear to me that Raffaele is writing that earlier he had been saying something else to the cops and that something else was that Amanda had told him---or "induced" him to say something. This is confirmed by the Matteini Report in which, according to the cops, on November 5/6 Raffaele had blamed Amanda for inducing him to make a statement which he would not otherwise have made.

///
 
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That possibility seems to only exist in the minds of those who desperately want to believe in Knox's and Sollecito's guilt. The knife evidence will almost certainly get thrown out due to grave errors in the collection and testing process. And the bra clasp is pretty likely to get thrown out, on account of the grave errors in the collection process, and also potentially because of the conflicting and confusing nature of the multiple DNA on the clasp - and the difficulty therefore of matching it conclusively to Sollecito.
It may happen, but people have been certain that all this evidence was on the cusp of being thrown out since at least the early days of the first trial. After losing in the first trial it turned out that that had always been the expected outcome and that the appeal was where the truth would come out.
 
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