Someone please call them to explain a 'red-shift'

[Unlike a Bull]

you wedge the prism between original source as it becomes the redshifting medium. Which is a little different than a wedge cake going in with color and coming out dark matter. (be sure to flush)

So, your theory is that the light travels through the "bowels of space" and is thus reddened? So, it would seem the 'cosmological redshift' that you so eloquently proved to be false would better be called 'blood in the cosmological stool'? I think this definitely deserves attention as it could be a sign of serious trouble. Are there any cosmo-proctologists on the forum who could weigh in on the subject?

 

[Ririon]

I don't want to be too picky, but one which isn't immediately, demonstrably flat out wrong would be nice.

From the Bishadi?
<Adam Savage>
Well, THERE'S your problem!
</Adam Savage>

 

[sol invictus]

Frequency=speed/wavelength
Guess what? Slow it down and change wavelength=same frequency...

That's correct.

It's not hard to understand intuitively: light is an electromagnetic field that oscillates at a certain frequency. When it arrives at the boundary layer of some transparent medium (water or glass, say), the EM fields jiggle the molecules in that layer. That causes them to emit EM radiation with exactly the same frequency. That radiation jiggles the molecules in the next layer of molecules, which then emit EM radiation, etc. Because there's a bit of a delay induced by this jiggling/emission process, the wave slows down as it propagates through the medium, and therefore the wavelength must change (the speed of a wave is the product of its wavelength and frequency).

and as I understand it, photons HAVE to travel at C in whatever medium they are in. C for glass is slower than it is for a vacuum.
That's what happens to light in water/glass/plastic.

"c" is usually short for "the speed of light in vacuum", or "2.9979E8 m/s". So no, light doesn't always travel at c - it slows down in water etc., as you said.

 

[Bishadi]

Luminiferous Aether?!!

This must be a Bishadi thread!

What next, tarot readings and natal horoscopy?

aether is nonsense.

Even einstein knew better even as the math made sense. Debroglie and even feshbach but to just keep your feet on the ground, remember the fields (electric and magnetic). Ie.... there is no empty space between 2 points of mass. (postulate)

 

[Mojo]

aether is nonsense.

Well, you're the one who objected to a statement that "light does not require any medium at all to propagate".

 

[rwguinn]

That's correct.

It's not hard to understand intuitively: light is an electromagnetic field that oscillates at a certain frequency. When it arrives at the boundary layer of some transparent medium (water or glass, say), the EM fields jiggle the molecules in that layer. That causes them to emit EM radiation with exactly the same frequency. That radiation jiggles the molecules in the next layer of molecules, which then emit EM radiation, etc. Because there's a bit of a delay induced by this jiggling/emission process, the wave slows down as it propagates through the medium, and therefore the wavelength must change (the speed of a wave is the product of its wavelength and frequency).



"c" is usually short for "the speed of light in vacuum", or "2.9979E8 m/s". So no, light doesn't always travel at c - it slows down in water etc., as you said.

That's why I used "Cap C", since I was unsure of convention.
I are a ninjaneer...

 

[RussDill]

Bishadi not understanding that white light is made up of several colors that can be separated out by a refracting medium (prism) sure explains a lot. It is apparently the goethe school of thought that colors are actually combinations of light and dark.

That'd be why he claims newton is "wrong".

Does he seriously not know what happens when you pass monochromatic (one color) light through a prism?

 

[RussDill]

Observe what happens when a green laser goes through a prism:

Does it redshift? No. Does it blueshift? No. Does it obey Snell's law? Hell YA!

 

[MRC_Hans]

SO is the radar detector measuring the energy or the energy?

Iti s measuring the frequency.

ie... is the energy based on the f the A and the quantity of photons?

Try again. Your question does not make sense.

What is the energy of a gamma photon and a radio photon? Show the size and the frequency of the resonating photon for each too?

You can look it up if you wanna know.

then what is bending, refracting?

Refraction occurs when light passes between different mediums where the speed of light is different. For the common prism, light moves slower in glass than in air.

down, you failed

I'm afraid you are not qualified to judge that.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

you wedge the prism between original source as it becomes the redshifting medium.

No, the prism does not redshift anything.

common sense tells is all, there is lots of mass between us and them original sources (galaxies).

Redshift is not dependent on the mass beween us and the source. As you may know, mass is not evenly distributed in the universe, so if passing by a concentration of mass influenced redshift, it would be very obvious.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

mass/energy affects the individual wavelengths but the dc rendered the 'spectrum' 'shift'


if you draw the scale on the wall, without the water in between the wall and prism, then place the water in between the 'spectrum will shift'

Well, since a glass of water tends to act like a lens, that is hardly surpising. What were you trying to prove?

I have a trick for you: Instead of white light, which holds lots of frequencies and easily confuses you, shine a laser on your prism and water glass. Just a nice 2$ red laser pointer, and you will see that all the prism, water glass, and whatever else you shine it trough, only bend, spread, or scatter the light. The color remains unchanged.


As you say, oooops.

Hans

 

[edd]

Bishadi, I'll try again to explain why you cannot succeed here.

Redshift changes wavelength and frequency - we're all agreed on that. Redshift also spaces out photons however. If I had a laser emitting a 400nm photon ten times a second sitting at a redshift of 1, when you observe it it would not be an 800nm photon arriving ten times a second. It would be an 800nm photon arriving 5 times a second. This effect is very well observed.

Any mechanism where some medium causes the change in wavelength hits a brick wall when trying to explain why the spacing between photons has changed. If this were a block of Bishadi-magic-glass^TM and you had ten photons a second going in one end and five coming out the other, then pretty rapidly you build up lots and lots of photons inside. Every second there's 5 more photons in your block. Even though you're magically dissipating the energy you're sucking from the photons to change their frequency, you still have a massive buildup inside.

Now you might then argue that the energy isn't big enough to matter, but you have to ask where inside the block of material that energy is being delayed. Because we look at sources at a range of distances if we somehow delayed photons for one source, wouldn't we perhaps end up being in that resulting photon excess for another source?

And you can't just divert the photons and send them off in some other direction, because we are some other direction for a lot of photons that were originally going somewhere else, and space would look foggy, not transparent. And for the CMB, you need to have got rid of 99.9% of photons and sent them somewhere else, but you can't send them in a different direction because the CMB is already coming at us from every direction! You can't scatter 99.9% of photons away from our line of sight without scattering an equal number into it!

The only way it works is if you give the photons that would be building up some extra space to spread out in - in other words if you have the universe expand.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Any mechanism where some medium causes the change in wavelength hits a brick wall when trying to explain why the spacing between photons has changed.

Nominated for its concision and clarity.

 

[Bishadi]

Observe what happens when a green laser goes through a prism:

[qimg]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2223/1591769889_f9e76308fb_m.jpg[/qimg]

Does it redshift? No. Does it blueshift? No. Does it obey Snell's law? Hell YA!

Russd,

perhaps go play somewhere else.

You have no idea the difference of a relative description and isotropic let alone the FACT that the MASS is SLOWING the speed of the light; PER SNELL's LAW.

The who snell-descardes rendition is about the 'bending' of the wave upon interaction.

It aint space bending.

It aint space expanding.

It is mass affecting the line of sight of the light. Kind of like using your lack of knowledge to bend the truth.

 

[Bishadi]

Bishadi, I'll try again to explain why you cannot succeed here.

what is success to this argument? The fools have already shown how little they know but that aint a success. A success would be when the unedumacated begin to use their head to combine information and evolve.

Redshift changes wavelength and frequency - we're all agreed on that.

and from a line of sight, mass does that perfectly and with all the evidence you would ever need.

Redshift also spaces out photons however. If I had a laser emitting a 400nm photon ten times a second sitting at a redshift of 1, when you observe it it would not be an 800nm photon arriving ten times a second. It would be an 800nm photon arriving 5 times a second. This effect is very well observed.

energy combining?

Any mechanism where some medium causes the change in wavelength hits a brick wall when trying to explain why the spacing between photons has changed.

what photon?

EM is not a particle. (what size is the photon of a radio wave?)

If this were a block of Bishadi-magic-glass^TM and you had ten photons a second going in one end and five coming out the other, then pretty rapidly you build up lots and lots of photons inside. Every second there's 5 more photons in your block. Even though you're magically dissipating the energy you're sucking from the photons to change their frequency, you still have a massive buildup inside.

you are funny.......

one minute the mass aint causing the change, the next you point out it is.

The item you need to address is what is occuring withn the mass? And then the affects to the wave before and after the impositions. The vector itself is a shift of the momentum/energy/trajectory..........snell laws.

and per newton no change without a cause. The mass is the cause.

And you can't just divert the photons and send them off in some other direction,

.................... but that is what is occuring (lots of evidnce)

how about: "You cant just expand space, to account for the change"

because we are some other direction for a lot of photons that were originally going somewhere else, and space would look foggy, not transparent.

The majority of space looks transparent but lots of solar wind just above the earth that would rip you to shreads.

The only way it works is if you give the photons that would be building up some extra space to spread out in - in other words if you have the universe expand.

but tht is not reality, that is the speculative approach.


kind of like suggesting hot goes to cold and have no fricken idea why.

Both assumptions are just stupid

 

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by edd

Any mechanism where some medium causes the change in wavelength hits a brick wall when trying to explain why the spacing between photons has changed.

Nominated for its concision and clarity.

Space dont bend and photons are not a thing but a representation of a qubit of energy less the spacial fields.

Edited by Locknar: 

Edited, breach of rule 0.

 

[DC]

Bishadi, you call others fools etc, but to practically everyone on this board it is very very clear who the fool is here.

your trolling is boring.

 

[Bishadi]

Bishadi not understanding that white light is made up of several colors that can be separated out by a refracting medium (prism) sure explains a lot.

A gamma ray is hot and beyond white hot

how many difference wavelengths can be found affecting mass after a nuclear detonation?

It is apparently the goethe school of thought that colors are actually combinations of light and dark.

x ray is dark and can make a bones picture seems white.

funny isnt is?

That'd be why he claims newton is "wrong".

newton was wrong per relativity

the speed of light did not exist back then

Does he seriously not know what happens when you pass monochromatic (one color) light through a prism?

sure............. 2.45G of the magnetron is what heats your food in a microwave. ONE Wavelngth and all that heat and bunches of wavelength, shifting, bending, expanding, converting, ....................


ie... the h20 is your prism to a microwave release of the ONE wavelength. You use it and yet have no idea how it works, right?

typical

 

[Bishadi]

Bishadi, you call others fools etc, but to practically everyone on this board it is very very clear who the fool is here.

your trolling is boring.

i have you complete attention and that is what is funny. You love to hate me.

 

[excaza]

the speed of light did not exist back then

This is wrong. The speed of light was demonstrated to be a finite value during Newton's lifetime.