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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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bucketoftea said:
I am speaking from experience. I have never used "tweezers" in the lab, and never, ever heard them called such. :shrugs:

If the alleged contamination did not occur in the shoebox, they use disposable "tweezers" and pipette tips, where do you think it comes from? Anything else holding material to be tested is also disposable.

What does Dan O mean by a "sterile environment"?
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I don't understand why the knife would have been removed from the evidence collection bag and placed in the box and then sent to the forensics lab in Rome. What is the reason it would have been unbagged before it reached the lab?

I understand there is no completely "sterile environment" when collecting evidence and where that evidence comes from, but what is the point of removing it from the collection bag (which minimizes risk of contamination) before it would reach the confines of the lab?
 
bucketoftea said:
What does the race of these individuals have to do with anything?
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I will never be afraid to recognize patterns because you tell me they cannot exist.

The victim I described was left in a pool of her own blood. The killer left his bloody fingerprints on the car window. Sound familiar?

Also, the killer was known to have treated female acquaintances roughly.

There are many 'lone wolf' precedents.
 
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nopoirot said:
"The whole truth and nothing but the truth": We're in the court of public opinion, not a court of law. In my simplicity, I had supposed that the first priority is to try to puzzle out what really happened here.
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You said you believe she is innocent. Yet believe she should be in jail until she tells the truth.

Thats an odd opinion when you consider if she is innocent, she really has been telling the truth.
 
nopoirot said:
Then you have Filomena's mysteriously closing door. Amanda avers that it was closed when she returned to the cottage Friday morning. In his diary, Raffaele says that, when he and Amanda returned, he saw immediately the door was wide open and the window shattered. He seems to be very aware of the significance of what he is here saying. I see no reason to doubt that he is here repeating what he told the police. If Amanda had seen the broken window, one is at a loss to explain why she did not immediately try to rouse Meredith, discover her door was locked, and sound the alarm, if only by telephoning Raffaele, running into the street, whatever. Any cop worth his pay would have smelled blood at this point.

It has here been proposed that someone entered the locked cottage after Amanda left and closed the door. I don't know that the police would have found that theory persuasive.
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I have wondered about this as well. It is interesting the contrast between Amanda's statements that Filomena's door was closed both when she first got there and when she later returned with Raffaele, yet Raffaele says Filomena's door was wide open both in his diary and in his leaked statements to police revealed in the media.

The interesting thing about this is that I don't remember seeing this obvious difference in statements even mentioned in the various reports by the judges, including Massei. Perhaps I missed it if someone would point it out to me. I just don't understand why this is not pounced on by the several judges that have reviewed this case.

I do see mention in some of the statements that when they entered they actually split up after entering the flat, with Amanda going to put the mop up and Raffaele looking around. It is not clear that they are real certain on the sequence of this. I would appreciate it if anyone has additional information on the subject.
 
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RoseMontague said:
I have wondered about this as well. It is interesting the contrast between Amanda's statements that Filomena's door was closed both when she first got there and when she later returned with Raffaele, yet Raffaele says Filomena's door was wide open both in his diary and in his leaked statements to police revealed in the media.

The interesting thing about this is that I don't remember seeing this obvious difference in statements even mentioned in the various reports by the judges, including Massei. Perhaps I missed it if someone would point it out to me. I just don't understand why this is not pounced on by the several judges that have reviewed this case.

I do see mention in some of the statements that when they entered they actually split up after entering the flat, with Amanda going to put the mop up and Raffaele looking around. It is not clear that they are real certain on the sequence of this. I would appreciate it if anyone has additional information on the subject.
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People's memories are not video recorders and it's easy to get events out of sequence. If someone opened or closed the door at any time while they were going back and forth it's entirely possible that everyone involved is telling the truth as they can best recall it.

Only in mystery novels and TV shows is everything that everyone says either perfectly factual or a giveaway that they are the murderer.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
People's memories are not video recorders and it's easy to get events out of sequence. If someone opened or closed the door at any time while they were going back and forth it's entirely possible that everyone involved is telling the truth as they can best recall it.

Only in mystery novels and TV shows is everything that everyone says either perfectly factual or a giveaway that they are the murderer.
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I agree. The point I am making is that this is not something that I believe Massei, Micheli, and others would agree with you on. Maybe I missed it, but IIRC, I don't remember it being mentioned. If someone has a reference to this in one of the reports, I would appreciate it.
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
People's memories are not video recorders and it's easy to get events out of sequence. If someone opened or closed the door at any time while they were going back and forth it's entirely possible that everyone involved is telling the truth as they can best recall it.

Only in mystery novels and TV shows is everything that everyone says either perfectly factual or a giveaway that they are the murderer.
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When I can't find my car in a parking lot it is usually because I've parked in the same parking lot twice in the same day. I always remember where I parked the first time but sometimes forget where I parked the second time.

Yes, I agree that 'People's memories are not video recorders'
 
Justinian2 said:
I will never be afraid to recognize patterns because you tell me they cannot exist.

The victim I described was left in a pool of her own blood. The killer left his bloody fingerprints on the car window. Sound familiar?

Also, the killer was known to have treated female acquaintances roughly.

There are many 'lone wolf' precedents.
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You are suggesting the "pattern" of black men killing whit(ish) women? Also, a man attacking his girlfriend is not the same as 3 people killing one woman together.

What you suggest is utterly meaningless.
 
Chris C said:
You Said:


I said the ones that where used at Knox/Kercher's apartment where not used in the lab. They were used outside the lab.

In other words, they were used at Knox/Kercher's apartment.
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I'm sorry, you must be sleepy. All means to manipulate sample material is done using disposable components. The forceps used at the crime scene wil not have been reused. It's really pretty clear what I've said.

SO, when all this is so, where do you say the contamination was introduced?
 
This seems like quite a worthwhile link:

The Amanda Knox Test: How an Hour on the Internet Beats a Year in the Courtroom.

Sorry if it's been posted before, I don't recall seeing it.

What was quite amusing was that I came across it via PMF, where some genius remarked "It's so close to the style of writing seen by Kevin Lowe on the JREF that I'd be very surprised if they didn't know one another well".

The idea that two unrelated people might both employ the methods of rational inquiry from a well-informed scientific perspective to solve problems seems to be inconceivable to them. We could try to explain to them that there are in facts lots of well-informed rationalists out there, but since they are firing up their incredulity engines at the very idea that two such people could not be close personal friends the idea that there might be more than two of us in the universe is probably too much for them for now.

A rather appropriate quote from that site, which I am having fun browsing:

"Sometimes men come by the name of genius in the same way that certain insects come by the name of centipede; not because they have a hundred feet, but because most people cannot count above fourteen."

-- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
 
Mary_H said:
And Amanda was at Raffaele's during the time the murder occurred.
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And if they had been able to prove that this was where they were, as Filomina was, none of this would have happened. Amanda and Raffaele asserting that they were at home isn't much of an alibi. Perhaps the computer records will help.
 
Yes, it took the Brutes of Perugia a good half hour to reduce Raffaele to babbling that he had been lying to them. They even subjected him to the indignity of forcing him to disrobe and surrender his footgear. The horra.
 
bucketoftea said:
You are suggesting the "pattern" of black men killing whit(ish) women? Also, a man attacking his girlfriend is not the same as 3 people killing one woman together.

What you suggest is utterly meaningless.
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No, what you said I said is utterly meaningless.

Is there a pattern of violence by black men as suggested by their higher incarceration rates in America? That's another debate.

My response to your reply follows:

bucketoftea said:
What does the race of these individuals have to do with anything?
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I will never be afraid to recognize patterns because you tell me they cannot exist.
The victim I described was left in a pool of her own blood. The killer left his bloody fingerprints on the car window. Sound familiar?

Also, the killer was known to have treated female acquaintances roughly.

There are many 'lone wolf' precedents.​

My emphasis was about 'lone wolf' cases.
 
shuttlt said:
And if they had been able to prove that this was where they were, as Filomina was, none of this would have happened. Amanda and Raffaele asserting that they were at home isn't much of an alibi. Perhaps the computer records will help.
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It may be that the judge feels it is enough that the prosecution has not been able to disprove the alibi as they have asserted they have done with Curatolo's testimony. I guess we will probably get to that before the results of the DNA review are in.
 
I just noticed where all the replies to my JREF comments are. They're over on the PMF site - the site that banned me after five quotes from Mark C. Waterbury.
 
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