Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Charlie Wilkes]

I find the evidence of multiple attackers too compelling to consider a lone wolf scenario. If Rudy was so nervous he could not contain his bowels, would he have not just fled, rather than incur further risk? He seems to transform from petrified petty criminal to a cool, calm hitman in an instant. And somehow he had the presence of mind to clean up, but not flush the toilet... why would he even bother to clean up.. there is broken glass lying around, yet he takes off his socks and shoes and tramps around in the blood... none of this adds up.

And I just think breaking in via Filomena's window has always been a non-starter. It is insistence on the least plausible explanations that has so far really put me off the arguments presented by the pro-innocent.

What is the evidence of multiple attackers?

 

[Dan O.]

My guess is that Rudy broke in through Filomena's window. Started searching around her belongings and his nerves caused him to need a bathroom.

Rudy may have already been through all four bedrooms before the bathroom break. He started in Filomena's room, he knows where both Amanda and Meredith stashed their money and there is an unexplained open drawer in Laura's room.

 

[LondonJohn]

shuttlt,

You are forgetting that the second police officer to handle the knife had just come from the girls' flat; therefore, contamination outside the lab is still a possibility. I think that secondary transfer is not all that likely, but Dr. Kekule mentioned it in a German newspaper article about a year ago. Contamination within the lab is my pick as the most probable, given the factors we have already mentioned.

Yes - wasn't the knife removed from the original container in which it had been placed, in a non-sterile environment? (And wasn't this original container, in any case, not a proper evidence bag, but rather some sort of box from Sollecito's apartment itself?!)

This totally violates chain-of-custody rules, as far as I'm aware. If the police were going to Sollecito's apartment to look for forensic evidence (among other reasons), then it's abundantly clear that they should have taken a number of sterile evidence collection bags of varying sizes with them. What would they have done, for example, if they'd found a blood-stained jacket in Sollecito's wardrobe? What "suitable receptacle" would they have places such a large item in, in order to remove it from the apartment?

The "crack" forensics team quite clearly erred badly again in this instance. The knife should have been placed in a sterile evidence bad in situ at Sollecito's apartment, and this bag should not have been opened until the knife was in the lab and about to be tested. There's no excuse whatsoever for this not to have been the case.

 

[Dan O.]

But I'd suggest that Guede would have expected to be able to creep up to the door, and either open it softly and creep out, or open it with noise and sprint out. And I'd further suggest that he started pulling on the door and rattling the handle when he realised that it wouldn't open easily for him. I think that Meredith would have been alerted by the noise (she was alone in a quiet house and IIRC had no TV or audio gear in her room, and she'd just got in in any case, so the house would have been quiet). She'd have either called out or come out into the hallway to investigate.

The rattling of the door from the inside would be essentially indistinguishable from somebody rattling the door from the outside. Meredith would not have been alarmed and given the thickness of the door, would not have called out to see who is there before first approaching the door because they would probably not hear her and she would not hear their reply. In such a scenario, Meredith would first encounter Rudy face to Face as she steps out of her bedroom and he steps back into the living room from the front door.

 

[billyryan]

I have thought the same too Kevin that judge Hellman has decided to home in on these bits of evidence.If the the knife and the braclip dna evidence dissapears the case can be wrapped up,perhaps a lot of blame can be put on Curatolla for giving false evidence,and its possible for a damage limitation to the Perugian police prosecuters and judges to come into play

I have grave doubt that the semen stain has not already been tested and the prosecution knows who it belongs to,or more importantly who it does not belong too,why else would they object too it been tested last saturday

The lead prosecuter said "it probally belonged to Meredith's boyfriend" I wonder what else did they decide not to test,or denied they tested when they did not like the results

 

[Dan O.]

Yes - wasn't the knife removed from the original container in which it had been placed, in a non-sterile environment? (And wasn't this original container, in any case, not a proper evidence bag, but rather some sort of box from Sollecito's apartment itself?!)

I do believe you have that backwards. The knife was originally placed in a sealed evidence bag. Back at the police station, it was removed from the bag and placed in a box that formerly contained a calendar

 

[loverofzion]

Thats an American legal term. Yet the prosecution and the interrogators aren't telling "the whole truth and nothing but the truth", do you think they should be convicted of murder also?

The prosecution and interrogators are not on the stand, they are not the accused.

We look for the truth from the convicted criminals appealing; so far we have not seen anything close to it coming from the convicted pair of murderers.

 

[loverofzion]

Who knows what Filomena would have done if she were in Amanda's circumstances. Possibly something even MORE suspicious than - gasp - a cartwheel.

What did you have in mind?

filomena was honest about her whereabouts, visibly distraught about her flatmate's murder and trying to be her most helpful and cooperative with the police.

On the other hand, amanda turned cartwheels and bought a pair thong panties (telling her paramour "we're going to have wild sex later" in the store), before the "kids" opted to have a pizza dinner instead of going to Meredith's memorial.

No, I don't think Filomena would have come near amanda's level of insensitive, boorish actions then.

 

[LondonJohn]

Ever cell phone I have (or have ever seen) gets turned off by the power button, which is clearly indicated.

Now, if one is too stupid to find a clearly marked button, then simply remove and replace the battery, as this will also turn off any phone.

It's really not difficult.

Assumption can be a dangerous thing sometimes.

Have a gander at page 7 of this pdf. It's the instruction manual for Meredith's UK phone:

http://www.sonyericsson.com/cws/download/1/228/345/1193010474/K700i_UG_R2a_EN.pdf

You'll see that the on/off button is not the "call end" button - as is the case with most mobile handsets - but instead it's a small button on top of the phone. It's not unlikely that the position and usage of this button would have erased (or at least eroded) the "on/off" symbol on it. And the act of removing the battery from many mobile handsets is not immediately intuitive either. This particular model had a "click and slide" rear cover.

I suspect that someone in a heightened state of arousal and fear would have been fumbling with the phone, probably with somewhat shaky hands. It's easy to contemplate how one might turn off the phone from the comfort of one's calm armchair, but to me it's totally reasonable that Guede (if it were he) would have been panicking and pressing random buttons to try to turn off the handset.

 

[LondonJohn]

I do believe you have that backwards. The knife was originally placed in a sealed evidence bag. Back at the police station, it was removed from the bag and placed in a box that formerly contained a calendar

Ah, thanks. I remembered that it had changed containers, but you're right. So at least the collecting forensics team can be absolved on this one. But the police back at the station most certainly cannot. There can be no excuse whatsoever for removing the knife from a sealed. sterile evidence bag in a completely non-sterile environment, then inexplicably placing it in a totally inappropriate container for onward transportation to the lab. Incompetence is only one of the two explanations for such an action. I'm sure people can guess what the other explanation might be......

 

[loverofzion]

Filomena is just as plausible as Amanda, and her alibi is that she spent the night with her boyfriend. The only difference between Amanda and Filomena is that Amanda found the situation at the cottage and Filomena didn't share a bathroom with Meredith.

And that Filomena's alibi actually CHECKED OUT.

Pity amanda's never did.

 

[loverofzion]

nopoirot,

I suspect that the police put the thoughts about Amanda's fidelity into his head. She only had two boyfriends while she was in Italy, contrary to early rumors.

Did that include the strange man on the train?

 

[LondonJohn]

Where does he refer only to Meredith's room? "Blood everywhere" does not mean blood in Meredith's room only.

Again watch out for your distortions- the truth is unvarnished, needs no help to shine through.

I'll provide the relevant quote from the article again, to help you out:

Raffaele Sollecito, 23, relived the horror of finding the body of the pretty brunette who died when her killer broke into her home and cut her throat as she lay in her bed.

"It is something I never hope to see again," he said. "There was blood everywhere and I couldn't take it all in.

Follow the logic: Sollecito relived the horror of finding the body. He wasn't at this point reliving the feelings he felt upon entering the cottage long before Meredith's door had been broken down. He's quoted directly below that line as saying "It (i.e. the actual scene of the murder where Meredith lay in a pool of her own blood) is something I never hope to see again".

Any rational person would (I believe) easily conclude that Sollecito (if he ever even said this quote) is referring specifically and exclusively to Meredith's room. And, as I said before, this conclusion is further supported by "Sollecito's" quotes from later in the article, which do deal specifically with how the apartment looked when he first arrived that morning (i.e. before Meredith's door was broken down).

I don't believe I'm guilty of distortions here. I believe this is an objective assessment of the meaning of "blood everywhere" within this article. And I think that almost everyone would agree with my interpretation. But feel free to make your own interpretation based on your own beliefs - it's your prerogative.

 

[TomCH]

Assumption can be a dangerous thing sometimes.

Have a gander at page 7 of this pdf. It's the instruction manual for Meredith's UK phone:

http://www.sonyericsson.com/cws/download/1/228/345/1193010474/K700i_UG_R2a_EN.pdf

You'll see that the on/off button is not the "call end" button - as is the case with most mobile handsets - but instead it's a small button on top of the phone.

What assumption?

The on/off button on my old Sony/Ericsson 810i is also a "small button on top of the phone", and I've had several other phones like that.

 

[LondonJohn]

Did that include the strange man on the train?

If she'd had sexual intercourse with this "strange man on the train", she would have had every reason to include the event in her list of sexual partners which she wrote in her diary. In fact, she'd have had a particularly strong reason to include it, since these sorts of encounters tend to be the most potentially risky of all in terms of contracting STDs. But a quick perusal of her list reveals no such reference - not even to "stranger on a train". Here's the list:

1. Kyle-also a virgin
2. James-checks regulary and always used a condom
3. Ross-a 1 night stand, pull out
4. DJ-condoms, Mom is a nurse, he would know
5. Elis-pull out-1 night stand
6. Daniele [sic]-condoms, 1 night stand
7. Raffaele-condoms, 1 time w/o."

Note that she includes her one-night-stands, including that with Daniel in Italy. Daniel and Sollecito are the only people whom she lasts as having had sex with whilst she's been in Italy.

I think it's reasonable to suggest, therefore, that she did not actually have sex with this "strange man on the train"

 

[LondonJohn]

What assumption?

The on/off button on my old Sony/Ericsson 810i is also a "small button on top of the phone", and I've had several other phones like that.

The assumption that the button would be easily visible and/or readily identifiable.

 

[TomCH]

The assumption that the button would be easily visible and/or readily identifiable.

And it is!

 

[LondonJohn]

And it is!

If you say so.

I say that to a frightened and highly-agitated person who's just committed a hugely serious crime, and who might never have owned a mobile handset which turned on and off via a recessed button on top of the handset (which may well have had the "on/off" symbol degraded or even erased), it's incorrect to assume that the button would be easy to locate.

So we'll have to agree to differ on this point.

 

[Chris C]

The prosecution and interrogators are not on the stand, they are not the accused.

We look for the truth from the convicted criminals appealing; so far we have not seen anything close to it coming from the convicted pair of murderers.

"The whole truth and nothing but the truth" is an American legal term. I'm not sure that when someone sits down to testify in an Italian court, if they place their hand on the bible and swear that oath? Its an oath that if violated you get charged with perjury. Its also something that lawyer/prosecutors can't break while in court. If they do they get disbarred.

 

[LondonJohn]

What did you have in mind?

filomena was honest about her whereabouts, visibly distraught about her flatmate's murder and trying to be her most helpful and cooperative with the police.

On the other hand, amanda turned cartwheels and bought a pair thong panties (telling her paramour "we're going to have wild sex later" in the store), before the "kids" opted to have a pizza dinner instead of going to Meredith's memorial.

No, I don't think Filomena would have come near amanda's level of insensitive, boorish actions then.

1) Did Filomena go to the vigil for Meredith?

2) Did Filomena need to buy underwear and other basic clothing items after the cottage was sealed as a crime scene (or did she run back into the cottage and scoop up lots of clothing - as she did with her laptop - thus compromising the investigation)?

3) What exactly did the shop assistant hear in the somewhat noisy shop? Could it be that the assistant....embellished....the story? Is that conceivable?

4) Is it true that amongst Filomena's first thoughts were a) to lawyer up, and b) to wonder about what the rent liability was and how to get out of the contract?