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Superconductivity at room temperature??

You have "argued" that by assertion only, despite multiple posts showing how to trivially prove it false using only Maxwell's equations. The "main stream" theory of superconductivity has no difficulty explaining the experimental fact that currents flow without dissipation in superconductors, even though (like all currents) they flow in regions where B=/=0.
Evidently this simple, basic, and obvious fact was news to you - someone that has supposedly written a book on superconductivity and been studying it for years.
Except that after 99 years it can still not explain the defining characteristic of a superconductor that Onnes had measured: Namely, how is an applied electric field cancelled within a superconducting material as soon as it becomes superconducting. Even when charge-carriers move through a material without dissipating energy within the material, this does not cancel an electric potential. You probably never heard of Newton's laws; since you would then know that when an object does not scatter it can still be accelerated by a potential energy field. The absence of energy dissipation does not on its own cancel a potential energy field.
You don't understand the "main stream" theory even at the level of someone that casually read the first few pages of any introductory primer on the topic. Are you really unable to see the problem there?
And those who think they understand it understands even less, because they are not able to see the myriad inconsistencies within the main stream theories.
You don't understand Maxwell's equations even at the level of a good high school student or average undergraduate. For someone attempting to revolutionize the study of superconductivity, do you not see that there might be an issue there?
Anybody who argues that Maxwell's equations allows that a static circular field caused by a current is actually responsible for generating the current , understands even less about Maxwell's equations than I do.
You made truly basic mistakes regarding conservation of energy in situations as trivial as a particle undergoing acceleration due to a potential gradient.
And you never made stupid and trivial mistakes in your life. Truly remarkable. Should you not have been an angel in heaven?
For someone that thinks that "Physics is Rotting", do you not sense just a bit of tension, just a whiff of irony in the air?
Physics is rotting specifically because main stream physicists are not willing to admit that they and their predecessors could have made stupid mistakes during the past 100 years. You are the a living example why physics has been rotting and is still rotting!
 
Well, engineers don't have to explain quantum effects.
If they have to they will definitely not end up in cloud cuckoo land as Bohr, Heisenberg and Born have done.
As long as they can take advantage of these effects and create incredible pieces of technology.
That is why all the successes which derive from quantum mechanics, like solid state electronics, were generated by people who just ignored the Copenhagen claptrap (people who thought like engineers), while those who believed in it (the physicists) have wasted billions of dollars looking for nonsensical, non useful things like Higgs bosons etc.

Well I am now signing off for my well-earned holiday.
 
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As the resistivity decreases one finds that it takes longer and longer times for the current to settle down to reach the conditions under which Ohm's law is valid. When you make the resistivity zero, the current keeps on increasing to infinity

You're assuming that the voltage never changes. This is a physically impossible assumption. Relax this assumption, and you'll find that there are no problems.

The fact that it seems to be valid for superconduction, does not explain superconduction

In the sense that it doesn't tell us how zero scattering can occur, sure.

The only reason why it will establish is the effect of contact-resistances: Without them, no equilibrium state is possible.

Anything which allows the voltage to drop can do that. A resistance anywhere in the circuit will work (it doesn't have to be at the point of contact), the decrease in separated charges which created the voltage will work (and the current is trying to do exactly that, BTW), whatever.

And I then pointed out that when you accelerate charges around a ring, you have a mini accelerator and must then emit cyclotron, or synchrotron radiation.

Again: ben's answer quite some time ago explained why this assertion is wrong.

You keep on trying to use "inductance" for a DC current. It does not apply.

You keep talking about a current which increases without bound for a DC current. It does not apply.

Your objection in this post is founded on what happens in a non-DC case (and DC here means constant current, not constant voltage). I think inductance is rather relevant to that.

If they accelerate you must measure a voltage: It is, however, the defining discovery that there cannot be such a voltage which Onnes used to identify superconduction. So you must be wrong.

Well, no. His discovery was for the DC case, which meant no acceleration. And if he meant to include time-varying currents (which I doubt), he was wrong. As I said, you cannot simply ignore induction. It's an obvious case where superconductors are MEASURED to have non-zero voltage across them.

The only way in which a current through a superconductor between two contcats can be increased is to increase the rate at which charge-carriers are being injected.

You can't do that without accelerating the charge carriers already in the superconductor, or you will create a net charge in the superconductor. Which (by Gauss's law) will create an electric field within the superconductor, which will then... accelerate the charge carriers already in the superconductor.

You cannot avoid accelerating the charge carriers. Even if you assume they won't, you will find out that they must.

If an electric field were present you would have measured a voltage.

Yes. Now try to figure out how large an electric field you need for that.

It's pretty damned small.

Onnes's discovery that a voltage does not manifest over two points to superconductor while a current is flowing is incontrovertible proof that the charge-carriers are not accelerated by an electric field within a superconductor. Please stop contradicting impeccable experimental evidence.

It's not impeccable evidence. In fact, it's fundamentally limited. You can never prove zero resistance, all you can ever do is establish an upper bound. If that upper bound is sufficiently small, we assume it's zero, but that step is still an assumption. And in the case of the electric field needed to make a superconducting current bend, well, the required field is damn tiny, so the inability of Onnes to measure it is of no consequence.

What you think is "direct observation of superconductors" is a misinterpretation of what you are seeing. If you cannot measure a voltage, there cannot be acceleration

That's simply not true. Our sensitivity to voltage in circuits is not unlimited. In fact, it's kind of crappy.

Ben is wrong: If he were correct that acceleration of charges without scattering cannot generate EM we would not have had synchrotron radiation.

Synchrotron radiation uses pulsed currents, so obviously his argument, which was formulated specifically to describe constant currents, doesn't apply.

I agree I made a booboo on this one by not being very clear about what I was trying to say when it comes to a superconductor and the presence of a magnetic field under these conditions. What I was trying to say, is that if there is any net magnetic field present within any region of such a material, that region cannot be superconducting.

Maxwell's equations, the region which contains the current MUST have a magnetic field, unless that region has zero volume. And a zero-volume current is not physical. So the obvious implication of what you're now arguing is that the current-carrying region of a superconductor is not superconducting. Which is a rather strange conclusion, don't you think?

What the main stream scientists are arguing is that a superconducting current flows through a surface layer (at a penetration depth lambda) in which the magnetic field is not cancelled. Now if this is so, why does superconduction stop in its tracks when a magnetic field is present within the whole superconducting layer. It just does not make experimental sense.

You have the sequence backwards. The superconducting phase always screens the field to a depth lambda. When the superconducting phase is destroyed because the field within that depth is too large, then the material stops superconducting and stops screening. You kill the superconducting phase, and THAT leads to a lack of screening. You cannot GET a magnetic field penetrating the entire sample until after you hit the critical field within the screened region.

Since there is a magnetic field energy within this layer, this region is not superconducting anymore; and the current must flow beneath it, within the region where there is no magnetic field.

Again, this is not possible: whatever region the current flows through will have a field.
 
This is not just "a current" around a "bent wire", but a mini-accelerator that you are describing; and accelerators do radiate EM radiation.

No, no, no. "Accelerators emit EM radiation" is not an ironclad law you can downscale to small systems. It's a consequence of Maxwell's Equations in the particular case of the EM fields in an actual accelerator, and the comparatively large spacing between these particles (and their very high kinetic energies) is important.

Maxwell's Equations in a bent wire, taking into account the very low kinetic energies and small spacings between the particles, tells you that this kind of acceleration emits no radiation.

Read my explanation again.
 
Except that after 99 years it can still not explain the defining characteristic of a superconductor that Onnes had measured: Namely, how is an applied electric field cancelled within a superconducting material as soon as it becomes superconducting.
Even when charge-carriers move through a material without dissipating energy within the material, this does not cancel an electric potential.

What? Movable charges always take E towards zero, even in an ordinary conductor---the mechanism is one of the first things undergrads learn about (say) metals.

Anybody who argues that Maxwell's equations allows that a static circular field caused by a current is actually responsible for generating the current , understands even less about Maxwell's equations than I do.

I didn't argue that, nobody did.
 
this extra energy must be radiated not to violate energy conservation.

As you still haven't managed to walk us through your idea of the energy budget in a simple Josephson junction circuit, you still haven't shaken my suspicion that you don't understanding voltage and/or energy.

My suspicion is getting stronger and stronger.
 
I am sorry Ben, but you are wrong in this case:

You do not have to first turn the applied magnetic field off before the current appears. It does appear as soon as you cool through the critical temperature: A fact that can easily be verified experimentally. Furthermore, if you turn off the magnetic field at a constant rate you will have a DC E-field, and you will still end up with the same situation than you will when not using a constant decay rate for the magnetic field.

Sorry, Johan, this is not a theoretical argument---I've done this experiment. My graduate lab had a meter or so of YBCO wire, wound carefully into a loop about the shape of a coffee can. We would cool it down and it would just sit there. With the exception of the Meissner effect in the "bulk" of the superconductor (not important for us, since it was a very thin tape) the current around the coil behaved just like you expect from Faraday's law. (We were trying to develop a new junior-lab experiment involving this coil.)

If, as you are reasoning, the current can only manifest after cooling and after the magnetic field is switched off, then it means that before you switch the magnetic field off, there would be a net magnetic field within the superconducting ring which is not cancelled. The Meissner effect will then not manifest in such a case. I find this highly unlikely.

The Meissner effect expels B field from the volume of the superconductor itself. A superconducting loop has a big empty space in the middle of it---that's why we keep using words like ring, loop, toroid (rather than slab, puck, block, brick, etc.). I hope you were reading carefully enough to notice this.

The Meissner effect does NOT expel flux from the open space near a superconductor, or enclosed by a superconductor, etc.

Again, Johan, this is not me repeating some untested textbook factoid. This is me reporting the behavior of (admittedly very casual) experiments with a YBCO coil, a strong permanent magnet that we could move around by hand, a Hall probe, and a dewar of nitrogen.
 
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The papers I have casually read about superconductivity all state that superconductors have the following characteristic and I quote:

"From a classical point of view, the superconducting state is characterized by two distinctive properties: perfect electrical conductivity (ρ = 0) and perfect diamagnetism (B = 0 inside the superconductor, where B is the magnetic field)."


Here is the definition of diamagnetism:

"Diamagnetism is the property of an object which causes it to create a magnetic field in opposition to an externally applied magnetic field, thus causing a repulsive effect. Specifically, an external magnetic field alters the orbital velocity of electrons around their nuclei, thus changing the magnetic dipole moment. According to Lenz's law, this opposes the external field. Diamagnets are materials with a magnetic permeability less than μ0 (a relative permeability less than 1).
Consequently, diamagnetism is a form of magnetism that is only exhibited by a substance in the presence of an externally applied magnetic field. It is generally quite a weak effect in most materials, although superconductors exhibit a strong effect.
Diamagnetic materials cause lines of magnetic flux to curve away from the material, and superconductors can exclude them completely (except for a very thin layer at the surface)."
 
I found this paper of Johans.
Perhaps this is the root of his argument?

Here is the abstract:

http://prb.aps.org/abstract/PRB/v31/i4/p2472_1

Onset of hopping conduction in carbon-ion-implanted diamond

Nuclear Physics Research Unit, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa 2000
Received 13 September 1984; published in the issue dated 15 February 1985

The conduction of diamond implanted with carbon ions, at a target temperature of 250 °C, was studied as a function of ion energy using the electrical sheet resistance of these implanted layers as a probe. It was found that ion doses at which the onset of hopping conduction occurs increases with range straggling ΔRp as (ΔRp)3/2. This result may be explained by a simple model if it is assumed that the interstitial atoms formed in the collision cascades are mobile, but not the vacancies. Accordingly, those interstitials which do not recombine with vacancies diffuse out of the implanted layer leaving behind a surplus of vacancies. When a certain critical vacancy density is reached, this layer relaxes to a state in which hopping conduction is possible. At implantation energies below about 100 keV, the results seem to indicate that a force exists which attracts the mobile interstitials to the surface.

© 1985 The American Physical Society
 
The papers I have casually read about superconductivity all state that superconductors have the following characteristic and I quote:

"From a classical point of view, the superconducting state is characterized by two distinctive properties: perfect electrical conductivity (ρ = 0) and perfect diamagnetism (B = 0 inside the superconductor, where B is the magnetic field)."

That's wrong. If it were really true, superconductors couldn't conduct.

Here is the definition of diamagnetism:

"Diamagnetism is the property of an object which causes it to create a magnetic field in opposition to an externally applied magnetic field, thus causing a repulsive effect. Specifically, an external magnetic field alters the orbital velocity of electrons around their nuclei, thus changing the magnetic dipole moment. According to Lenz's law, this opposes the external field. Diamagnets are materials with a magnetic permeability less than μ0 (a relative permeability less than 1).
Consequently, diamagnetism is a form of magnetism that is only exhibited by a substance in the presence of an externally applied magnetic field. It is generally quite a weak effect in most materials, although superconductors exhibit a strong effect.
Diamagnetic materials cause lines of magnetic flux to curve away from the material, and superconductors can exclude them completely (except for a very thin layer at the surface)."

With the last caveat, that's correct.
 
Is it just B=0, implying perfect diamagnetism that is incorrect or is there an issue with perfect electrical conductivity as well?

In the real world nothing is ever truly perfect... but the resistivity is so close to zero that currents can persist for thousands of years and more. So the perfect conductivity part is fine.

But B simply isn't zero near the surface of a superconductor, even an ideal one. One way to think about what happens is that the photon acquires a mass inside the superconductor. If the photon had a mass, electromagnetic fields would fall off exponentially at a certain characteristic radius (proportional to the inverse mass) from a charge or current. That is, close to a charge or current things would look normal, but after a certain critical distance you'd see that the EM field strength was decreasing exponentially.

Inside a superconductor, the photon effectively has a (fairly large) mass. Even without that electric fields are perfectly cancelled, because the resistivity is zero (and so charges can flow to cancel any applied E field). But in an "ordinary" zero resistance conductor there's no analogous effect for B fields (since there's no magnetic charge that can flow). However since the photon is effectively massive in a superconductor, the B field generated by any currents or external applied B field damps exponentially. The characteristic length is called the skin depth or London penetration depth.
 
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In the real world nothing is ever truly perfect... but the resistivity is so close to zero that currents can persist for thousands of years and more. So the perfect conductivity part is fine.


Ok, but here comes another question.

If it is acceptable to set conductivity or resistivity p=0, why can you not set B=0

They are both close a dammit to 0.
Or, is it just that p is a lot lot smaller than B.

If you were to set p=0 and B=0, would the accuracy of any derivation be unacceptable, or are you stressing the incorrectness for conceptual reasons?
 
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Ok, but here comes another question.

If it is acceptable to set conductivity or resistivity p=0, why can you not set B=0

They are both close a dammit to 0.
Or, is it just that p is a lot lot smaller than B.

If you were to set p=0 and B=0, would the accuracy of any derivation be unacceptable, or are you stressing the incorrectness for conceptual reasons?

Both. If you set B=0 you set the current to zero (or at least force it to flow in an infinitely thin layer, which is singular, unpredictive, and unphysical).

Even in a mathematically ideal superconductor, where the resistivity is exactly zero, B will not (in general) be zero.

Understanding exactly how B is non-zero turns out to be essential to understanding what happens when you apply a strong external B field to the superconductor. It's the most important factor that differentiates between type I (low Tc) and type II (high Tc) superconductors, for example.
 
Understanding exactly how B is non-zero turns out to be essential to understanding what happens when you apply a strong external B field to the superconductor. It's the most important factor that differentiates between type I (low Tc) and type II (high Tc) superconductors, for example.

So if a type I is exposed to high external B, superconduction will be impaired.
A type II superconductor does not suffer from high external B quenching the charge.

Have I understood this correctly?
 
So if a type I is exposed to high external B, superconduction will be impaired.
A type II superconductor does not suffer from high external B quenching the charge.

Have I understood this correctly?

No, not quite (Zig or Ben can correct me if I'm wrong on something).

When you apply a very strong B field, you entirely destroy the superconducting phase in any type of superconductor. The energy cost of expelling the field is larger than forcing the superconductor into the ordinary phase and keeping the field as is.

When you apply a weak field, the B field is expelled in the sense we've been discussing.

When you apply an intermediate field, one of two things can happen: either the B field lines bunch together a bit and form a large ordinary (non-superconducting) region surrounded by some superconducting regions (that's type I), or they form a kind of lattice (type II). The vertices of that lattice are flux tubes carrying a specific amount of magnetic flux. You never find any fraction of that amount, but also you never find larger amounts, because unit flux tubes repel each other.

The core is non-superconducting, but in between the tubes the field damps exponentially as usual. However if the tubes are close enough together, it might never get really small. Nevertheless, the regions in between can be superconducting. If you pack the tubes too closely by increasing the field, at some point you transition to a normal phase everywhere.
 
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*bump*

What B field would be generated by a superconductor in a Faraday cage?

ie, no external magnetic field applied.

Would B=0 and if so, why would the characteristic of perfect diamagnetism for a superconductor be incorrect?

"From a classical point of view, the superconducting state is characterized by two distinctive properties: perfect electrical conductivity (ρ = 0) and perfect diamagnetism (B = 0 inside the superconductor, where B is the magnetic field)."
 
Hi Skwinty, the question is a bit garbled.

What B field would be generated by a superconductor in a Faraday cage?
ie, no external magnetic field applied.

First, Faraday cages block external E-fields, not B-fields. (To block a B-field you use something like a mu-metal shield---or a superconductor, in fact.) It's fine to say "no external magnetic field applied" though.

Would B=0 and if so, why would the characteristic of perfect diamagnetism for a superconductor be incorrect?

Superconductors don't "generically" generate B fields, not just by virtue of being superconducting. Did someone turn on a current through your superconductor? If so, B != 0. If not, B=0.
 

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