Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[welshdean]

Well I've already responded to the part about man allegedly coming first with regards to animals; you injected the wording "before" and "after" there, when those words were not in the bible. I go into more detail about that in this post:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6660618#post6660618


Now with regard to God making a woman you are injecting the word "simultaneously". You're once again assuming something. I see the author simply (summarizing what happened) in Genesis 1:27 and what happened was that yes God did make man and woman but the bible doesn't say simultaneously - you do. He generalizes here and later he will be more specific in Genesis 2: 21,22.

And we even have evidence of the writer of Genesis doing this kind of summarizing before he gets specific -- where you might ask -- in the very first verse of the bible. He summarizes when he states in Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God Created the heaven and the earth." Later he gets more specific.

This appears to be exactly what the writer is doing above with the creation of man and woman. He summarizes first in Chapter 1, then gets more specific about what happened in Chapter 2. You're twisting this simple act of summarizing to suit your purpose.

One possible reason for the summarizing and some of the difficulty is that these chapters might have been written at different times on different pieces of parchment. It is unlikely the writer wrote all 60 pages of Genesis in one sitting or on one solid sheet of parchment or whatever he wrote on in that era of no paper. He possibly wrote it all in 20 sittings on many different pieces of parchment. And remember Moses was wondering in the desert for many years. He could have wrote one chapter on one piece of parchment, put it away for safekeeping, and then started writing again on another piece of parchment. This could be a reason for some of the difficulties. You just don't keep parchment in your back pocket for a few days while your traveling and then start on the same parchment.

But the bottom line is there is no clear contradiction in my opinion, he was simply generalizing what happened in Genesis 1; 27, and then was more specific the next chapter.

I just...

I mean...

But...

 

[Craig4]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[Helen]

One possible reason for the summarizing and some of the difficulty is that these chapters might have been written at different times on different pieces of parchment. It is unlikely the writer wrote all 60 pages of Genesis in one sitting or on one solid sheet of parchment or whatever he wrote on in that era of no paper. He possibly wrote it all in 20 sittings on many different pieces of parchment. And remember Moses was wondering in the desert for many years. He could have wrote one chapter on one piece of parchment, put it away for safekeeping, and then started writing again on another piece of parchment. This could be a reason for some of the difficulties. You just don't keep parchment in your back pocket for a few days while your traveling and then start on the same parchment.

This is one of the best pieces of satire I have seen.

And I am left wondering as well. Did he have back pockets at all, that Moses guy? Maybe that's the reason nobody wrote fiction in those days, they didn't have any back pockets to keep the parchment in!

 

[nvidiot]

*Moses furiously looking through his tent, upending every cushion in sight*

"Honey!? Have you seen the parchment I had earlier?"

"The one with the scribbles on it or the one with the pictures?"

"Yes! The one with the story about the beginning of the universe!"

"It was in the way when I was sacrificing the goat so I put it in your other toga"

"Bloody heck woman I just washed that toga down at the river! Now how am I supposed to tell everyone about how God created the world?"

"Don't complain to me you lazy old bastard. If you'd written in stone like you did with those 15 commandments you wouldn't be in this spot now would you? Why don't you just write it again? No one will notice."

"I suppose so. Where did you see the parchment with the pictures on it? The one where I drew the images of Eden as our Lord described it to me?"

"I used that for kindling. I've already told you a hundred times that I will not have porn in this tent. I swear you spend way too much time up that mountain. If I didn't know that you were utterly useless in bed I'd think you were cheating on me."

*Moses merely grumbles quietly, realising that even though he's in charge of a patriarchal society, women hold the balls of those in charge.*

 

[Amazer]

*Moses furiously looking through his tent, upending every cushion in sight*

"Honey!? Have you seen the parchment I had earlier?"

"The one with the scribbles on it or the one with the pictures?"

"Yes! The one with the story about the beginning of the universe!"

"It was in the way when I was sacrificing the goat so I put it in your other toga"

"Bloody heck woman I just washed that toga down at the river! Now how am I supposed to tell everyone about how God created the world?"

"Don't complain to me you lazy old bastard. If you'd written in stone like you did with those 15 commandments you wouldn't be in this spot now would you? Why don't you just write it again? No one will notice."

"I suppose so. Where did you see the parchment with the pictures on it? The one where I drew the images of Eden as our Lord described it to me?"

"I used that for kindling. I've already told you a hundred times that I will not have porn in this tent. I swear you spend way too much time up that mountain. If I didn't know that you were utterly useless in bed I'd think you were cheating on me."

*Moses merely grumbles quietly, realising that even though he's in charge of a patriarchal society, women hold the balls of those in charge.*

Nominated

 

[Akhenaten]

He hasn't posted for some time, but he has been reading posts.

How can he read the shoite from DOC and remain silent, has he smashed his keyboard up in complete frustration?

Metaphorically, yes.

Unfortunately, it seems that these days every sub-forum has its own DOC, or rather a collection of them, and I'm frankly tired of arguing the toss with people who have absolutely no interest in thinking critically about the vapid, agenda-driven nonsense that they post and are simply here to either preach or troll, knowing full-well that they are sheltered from anyone daring to point out that they are simply here to either preach or troll.

I'm sure we all know who they are.

 

[DOC]

This is fascinating.

this post perfectly illustrates the weaknesses of DOC's position. No counter argument is needed...

Anybody can say something like this, even a troll who has not read one word of this thread, although I'm not saying you're a troll.

 

[nvidiot]

*basks in Aberhaten's glorious presence*

There's always at least one isn't there?

 

[Aepervius]

Anybody can say something like this, even a troll who has not read one word of this thread, although I'm not saying you're a troll.

Yep and anybody can say what I quoted. The difference is, you are one man, and we are a huge number of people, from various countries, various backgrounds. And we all say you are spouting BS first grade. That alone should , maybe, make you treflect upon yourself a bit.

But people which came to a conclusion by non rational mean (you) are unlikely to change their mind when presented with rationala rguments (ours).

 

[DOC]

Moses is a mythic character. There is no evidence of him having existed...

Well the famous Jewish/Roman historian Josephus certainly believed he existed and Jesus certainly believed he existed. And the author who wrote the well known book "The 100 - the hundred most influential people in History" listed Moses as the the 10th most important influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson). And on a personal note, if the historical person Jesus believes he existed (according to several verses in the bible), then I believe he existed.

 

[DOC]

Yes, he is.

He will deny it, but that is exactly what his post that you quoted says: The authors of the bible made mistakes.

Actually I didn't say this.

 

[Akhenaten]

This is fascinating.

this post perfectly illustrates the weaknesses of DOC's position. No counter argument is needed...

Anybody can say something like this, even a troll who has not read one word of this thread, although I'm not saying you're a troll.

Post Counts |
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Doc|2,273
joobz and Akhenaten|2,789

You lose, DOC.

 

[Akhenaten]

Moses is a mythic character. There is no evidence of him having existed...

Well the famous Jewish/Roman historian Josephus certainly believed he existed and Jesus certainly believed he existed.

Millions of children believe that Santa Claus exists. Is it beyond you to grasp that this is not evidence?

Do you really expect to be allowed to cite one mythical character as a witness for the existence of another mythical character?

Really???

And the author who wrote the well known book "The 100 - the hundred most influential people in History" listed Moses as the the 10th most important influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson).

The author who wrote The Two Towers lists Gandalf as the third most influential person ever to live (ahead of Aragorn and Saruman).

Explain why your author should be regarded as more believable than mine.

And on a personal note, if the historical person Jesus believes he existed (according to several verses in the bible), then I believe he existed.

Your unfounded and fanciful beliefs count for absolutely nothing, DOC. Stop preaching and show us some evidence or hie thee back to Sunday School.

 

[Akhenaten]

Yes, he is.

He will deny it, but that is exactly what his post that you quoted says: The authors of the bible made mistakes.

Actually I didn't say this.

No, you didn't, because in your typical wilburish fashion you labelled the bible's glaring internal inconsistencies not as the mistakes that they most certainly are but as "some difficulties".

And while we're mentioning that drivel about Moses and the parchment in his back pocket, you still haven't bothered to answer my question, raised months ago, about the claimed lack of paper in Ancient Egypt. Have you looked up the etymology of "paper" yet, DOC?

And are you able to explain why a mere slave like this alleged Moses character was in possession of enough parchment (a valuable asset) to write the book of Genesis (and others) on it?

While you're at it, you might like to explain what language he was using.

 

[DOC]

Utter garbage. The Earth is around 4.54 billion years old, and the earliest oceans are estimated to have formed 4.4 billion years ago at the very earliest. This gives the Earth around 140 million years of being a volcanic wasteland being battered by meteorites. Please try again.

Ever hear of "old earth creationism"?

The the Hebrew word "yom' does not necessarily mean a 24 hr. day.

From the article "Old Earth Creation Science
Word Study: Yom
By Greg Neyman

"Moses Other Uses of Yom

Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

1. Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
2. Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for ever." Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
3. Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever." Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
4. Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever." Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..." Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
6. Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever." Again, Yom is translated as eternity
7. Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..." Here, Yom represents a lifetime. As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity."

http://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm

 

[Akhenaten]

Ever hear of "old earth creationism"?

Yes, it's a fairytale brewed up in the same crock that produced drivel like resurrections and walking on water.

The the Hebrew word "yom' does not necessarily mean a 24 hr. day.

From the article "Old Earth Creation Science
Word Study: Yom
By Greg Neyman

"Moses Other Uses of Yom

Moses, the author of the first five books of the Bible, and of Psalm 90, used Yom in many different ways.

1. Genesis 4:3 "And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord." In this instance, Yom refers to a growing season, probably several months.
2. Genesis 43:9 "...then let me bear the blame for ever." Here, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
3. Genesis 44:32 "...then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever." Again, Moses uses Yom to represent eternity
4. Deuteronomy 4:40 "...that thou mayest prolong thy days upon the earth, which the Lord thy God giveth the, for ever." Here Yom represents a physical lifetime
5. Deuteronomy 10:10, "Now I stayed on the mountain forty days and nights, as I did the first time,..." Here, Yom is a "time" equal to forty days.
6. Deuteronomy 18:5 "...to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for ever." Again, Yom is translated as eternity
7. Deuteronomy 19:9 "...to love the Lord thy God, and to walk ever in His ways..." Here, Yom represents a lifetime. As long as we live we are to walk in his ways

Blah, blah, blah.

As you can see, Moses used the word Yom to represent 12-hours, 24 hours, the creative week, forty days, several months, a lifetime, and eternity."

How would we be able to see any such thing when not one of the quotes you've provided includes either the word "day" in its application as a period of 24 hours or the word "yom" in its original context?

Are you seriously proposing that we take your word for it as a scholar of the ancient Hebrew language? As if.

Just as a test of your scolarship in this area, and more-or-less following on from a previous post of mine, perhaps you'd care to explain to us where Moses learned to write in Hebrew.

http ://www.answersincreation.org/word_study_yom.htm

You quote a site named "answers in creation" to provide evidence that creationism is true?

You can't even see why that's a problem, can you?

 

[nvidiot]

Whichever of these myths you quote doc, they have absolutely no basis in scientific fact.

I'm starting to think you're an Illogibot 2000. It's almost a compulsion for you to use fallacy after fallacy.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Metaphorically, yes.

Unfortunately, it seems that these days every sub-forum has its own DOC, or rather a collection of them, and I'm frankly tired of arguing the toss with people who have absolutely no interest in thinking critically about the vapid, agenda-driven nonsense that they post and are simply here to either preach or troll, knowing full-well that they are sheltered from anyone daring to point out that they are simply here to either preach or troll.

I'm sure we all know who they are.

All hail the return of the Pharaoh!

And, on this note, I'm taking the liberty of fulfilling another duty I have and asking all of you basking in the radiance of the Pharaoh's presence to PM Wolfman and volunteer to be a Secret Santa.

 

[Akhenaten]

Whichever of these myths you quote doc, they have absolutely no basis in scientific fact.

I'm starting to think you're an Illogibot 2000. It's almost a compulsion for you to use fallacy after fallacy.

It's got to be something along those lines. Even the most adept at critical thought, logical reasoning and the rules of debate will find themselves occasionally guilty of employing a logical fallacy, but with DOC it's every single assertion in every single post to the extent that his body of work is a kind of reverse text book for presenting arguments.

 

[ddt]

Well the famous Jewish/Roman historian Josephus certainly believed he existed and Jesus certainly believed he existed.

Evidence of both claims?

And the author who wrote the well known book "The 100 - the hundred most influential people in History" listed Moses as the the 10th most important influential person ever to live (ahead of Washington and Jefferson).

Are you sure? Here is the list. Moses is in 15th place. Care also to tell who is first? (more evidence that you're actually advocating Islam here). And what's the relevance of the place of Washington and Jefferson on someone's list?

And on a personal note, if the historical person Jesus believes he existed (according to several verses in the bible), then I believe he existed.

Evidence for the historicity of Jesus?