Hard vs Soft Martial Arts

[TubbaBlubba]

My first question is have you ever had any martial arts training before?

If not, I would start with something simple, perhaps basic boxing or kickboxing, or even some karate. It really depends upon what you're looking for. As others have said, some kickboxing & TKD will work on your flexibility quite a lot, but to develop raw stamina I'd go for judo, BJJ, or some kind of wrestling. Pretty much any kind of decent martial arts training will start you off with agility & coordination, because without these everything else is kind of worthless.

When I was a kid I trained some karate and taido. Not very seriously, though.

Kickboxing, Taekwondo and judo seems most appealing at the moment. But it's a while left before I'll even have a shot at having time for it, so I've got time to think.

 

[keale]

If you compete or even get into serious randori and get caught with a drop seoi-nage, it might pop on you again. I'd suggest developing awareness for when you get caught and using ukemi to mitigate the pressure on your arm.

I'd suggest that, but if you get "caught" you probably won't have time to "do" much of anything except admire one or two ceiling tiles on your way down.

I do think that Judo CAN be safer than BJJ, but that can't really even be an absolute statement since it depends on what technique, what person, what surface you're training on, your flexibility, the opponent's form. Though Judo doesn't place as heavy an emphasis on ground-based locks as BJJ, there are still a few of them when you work ne-waza.

Just be aware of your limitations, talk to whoever you're working with, and don't try to be some kind of superhero muscling your way out of locks. You do see people pull it off now and again, but I believe the most typical outcome involves the hospital.

Good luck to ya...I'm a bit jealous. Had to quit all training for school/schedule concerns. I miss the hell out of it, and wish I could get back to it.

I know where your coming from. Finances and life priorities take precedent over all that stuff. As it is right now I only go when I can and now that im getting a bit older I found that I the competitive aspect means very little now I am far more interested in the knowledge of the nuances in the arts. IF your working really hard and muscling everything then your doing it wrong. These arts are from originate from "Ju" and watching the guys who are really good it appears that they arent trying very hard but its because their efficient.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Unfortunately, competition beats "nuance" every time as far as being able to effectively translate your training and apply it on someone who is hell-bent on doing you harm and isn't too keen on just giving you an opening for a choke.

I think more "nuanced" approaches where competition is de-emphasized only increase your ability to defend yourself marginally, and may even harm it a little.

Basically what I'm saying is this: Let's take two different Judoka.

One is a Shodan and a master of form and performing kata. He knows the history and training methods of Judo inside and out, and can effectively demonstrate an enormous battery of techniques.

One the other hand you've got one that isn't nearly as knowledgeable, and may even struggle with some of the advanced techniques. Let's say he's a brown belt, or even a Green. However, he loves to compete. Most of his workouts are "rolling" rather than working on form. He's got two or three solid techniques, and is developing a real flair for being able to take the opponent's balance through either finesse or force.

My money would be on the second guy being able to defend himself significantly better than the first one, all other factors being equal.

And that was one of the hardest things for me to accept about Aikido training. I thought that my excellent form/technique would just automatically "click" when I needed it to. That's what my instructor told me, anyway. (I don't think he'd ever really been in a fight either.) Long story short, I got my ass beat. Bad. That "clicking" where techniques can be relied upon isn't so much a "click" as a foundation laid through hours and hours of frustration, sweat, blood, injury, and effort.

 

[Garrette]

Unfortunately, competition beats "nuance" every time as far as being able to effectively translate your training and apply it on someone who is hell-bent on doing you harm and isn't too keen on just giving you an opening for a choke.

I think more "nuanced" approaches where competition is de-emphasized only increase your ability to defend yourself marginally, and may even harm it a little.

Basically what I'm saying is this: Let's take two different Judoka.

One is a Shodan and a master of form and performing kata. He knows the history and training methods of Judo inside and out, and can effectively demonstrate an enormous battery of techniques.

One the other hand you've got one that isn't nearly as knowledgeable, and may even struggle with some of the advanced techniques. Let's say he's a brown belt, or even a Green. However, he loves to compete. Most of his workouts are "rolling" rather than working on form. He's got two or three solid techniques, and is developing a real flair for being able to take the opponent's balance through either finesse or force.

My money would be on the second guy being able to defend himself significantly better than the first one, all other factors being equal.

And that was one of the hardest things for me to accept about Aikido training. I thought that my excellent form/technique would just automatically "click" when I needed it to. That's what my instructor told me, anyway. (I don't think he'd ever really been in a fight either.) Long story short, I got my ass beat. Bad. That "clicking" where techniques can be relied upon isn't so much a "click" as a foundation laid through hours and hours of frustration, sweat, blood, injury, and effort.

I think you're right. My own revelation came before I had to suffer a beat down when I went through my own habit of visualizing possible scenarios (usually in a security setting). I almost always ran up against a mental brick wall when I pictured someone just slightly bigger and stronger than me (not hard to do) who simply bullrushed me in a semi-competent stance. Most thought-experiments along those lines ended in failure for me.

As an aside, in reading your post I was struck by a similarity with magicians. The old chestnut is that professionals perform only a few tricks, but they do them expertly and for differing groups of people; amateurs perform hundreds but all poorly and always for the same people, usually family. My addendum to that chestnut is that it usually the amateurs who
are more vocal about what they allegedly know.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The main reason I stopped BJJ and went to Judo is because I kept getting injured.

I find that funny, because I've always gotten banged up more doing Judo than BJJ.

 

[George II]

In my teens I began training Shotokan Karate, admittedly to learn how to fight. It was pretty worthless though, the basic techniques were very powerfull and looked good if you did them right, but they also took a very long time to complete. You would probably be knocked out before you even had started to defend yourself.

I was assaulted a few years later and realized that nothing I had learned in Karate class could help me, so I took a pretty bad beating. I later tried Ju Jutsu, and even though I did that for only a year or so, I felt like I learned more about self defense i one week than I did during two years of Karate. I think that the Ju Jutsu may have helped me a bit during that assault, but ultimately I don't know of course. All sorts of nasty things can happen during fights. Luckily, I have been able to avoid them since that time.

 

[keale]

I find that funny, because I've always gotten banged up more doing Judo than BJJ.

Yeah I thought that too but our style of Judo is a bit more old school where we have done what feels like a bajillion ukemis. Plus it helps that the class was small and the guys know not to get crazy on my right arm.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I find that funny, because I've always gotten banged up more doing Judo than BJJ.

A tai-otoshi you're not ready for will do that.

Also, whatever the technique is that sweeps uke's knees from left to right, usually banging them together and resulting in a side-fall that's tough enough to land correctly from in kata practice, let alone randori/competition.

ETA: Here they are.


Okuriashi Harai (Following Foot Sweep)

Seems like whenever I got hit with this one it was right on the knee following the side-to-side motion. You can see it coming for days, but I could never stop it.

It's not one that you see very often in matches, though. If you watch world-class Judo matches, you don't really see all that many techniques. I kinda geeked out and watched the world championships after noticing that they were available on the new XBOX360 ESPN3 app. Russians are damn good - so are the Turks.

 

[keale]

A tai-otoshi you're not ready for will do that.

Also, whatever the technique is that sweeps uke's knees from left to right, usually banging them together and resulting in a side-fall that's tough enough to land correctly from in kata practice, let alone randori/competition.

ETA: Here they are.


Okuriashi Harai (Following Foot Sweep)

Seems like whenever I got hit with this one it was right on the knee following the side-to-side motion. You can see it coming for days, but I could never stop it.

It's not one that you see very often in matches, though. If you watch world-class Judo matches, you don't really see all that many techniques. I kinda geeked out and watched the world championships after noticing that they were available on the new XBOX360 ESPN3 app. Russians are damn good - so are the Turks.

Vladamir Putin is a black belt judoka. Im always amazed at how wide spread Judo is world wide.

 

[keale]

Unfortunately, competition beats "nuance" every time as far as being able to effectively translate your training and apply it on someone who is hell-bent on doing you harm and isn't too keen on just giving you an opening for a choke.

I think more "nuanced" approaches where competition is de-emphasized only increase your ability to defend yourself marginally, and may even harm it a little.

Basically what I'm saying is this: Let's take two different Judoka.

One is a Shodan and a master of form and performing kata. He knows the history and training methods of Judo inside and out, and can effectively demonstrate an enormous battery of techniques.

One the other hand you've got one that isn't nearly as knowledgeable, and may even struggle with some of the advanced techniques. Let's say he's a brown belt, or even a Green. However, he loves to compete. Most of his workouts are "rolling" rather than working on form. He's got two or three solid techniques, and is developing a real flair for being able to take the opponent's balance through either finesse or force.

My money would be on the second guy being able to defend himself significantly better than the first one, all other factors being equal.

And that was one of the hardest things for me to accept about Aikido training. I thought that my excellent form/technique would just automatically "click" when I needed it to. That's what my instructor told me, anyway. (I don't think he'd ever really been in a fight either.) Long story short, I got my ass beat. Bad. That "clicking" where techniques can be relied upon isn't so much a "click" as a foundation laid through hours and hours of frustration, sweat, blood, injury, and effort.

Dont get me wrong I agree with you. That being said its no longer practical for me to train like that and risk injury anymore. I literally cant afford to be injured because I wont be able to do anything to generate money and im teetering on the brink.

I use the same analogy when I debate the firearms issue. The mere fact that you have a gun does not mean you know how to use it in a real scenario. Making the correct decisions under duress requires training.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

I use the same analogy when I debate the firearms issue. The mere fact that you have a gun does not mean you know how to use it in a real scenario. Making the correct decisions under duress requires training.

And, I might add, learning how to handle duress through experience helps.

 

[imjohn]

As a teenager I took Tae Kwon Do, spent time doing some kick boxing type sparring with a buddy that studied kung fu, and was on the wrestling team. The wrestling team had the highest effect on me in physical conditioning and actually knowing how to take and dish out physical punishment -- and we worked hard at not killing each other by accident.

 

[Garrette]

As a teenager I took Tae Kwon Do, spent time doing some kick boxing type sparring with a buddy that studied kung fu, and was on the wrestling team. The wrestling team had the highest effect on me in physical conditioning and actually knowing how to take and dish out physical punishment -- and we worked hard at not killing each other by accident.

I've said this a few times on this board, and many times off it: As a general rule, the class of people I would least like to actually fight, all else being equal, is that class of people who are accomplished wrestlers. In my experience, having known a few very accomplished wrestlers, they are the ones most immune to pain and the ones who have the highest degree of "Never Quit" in them.

 

[Bikewer]

When straightforward wrestlers began showing up in the earlier UFC matches, they were tossing the other fighters around like rag dolls.
Unfortunately, they often did not have any finishing or submission moves, as that sort of thing is not part of normal wrestling competition. They'd take the other guy down, and control him, but they couldn't get the tap-out.
From the standpoint of speed, strength, and endurance they were stellar.

Didn't take folks too long to pick up some essential finishing moves. However, I watched a match just last week with a young fellow from a wrestling background who thoroughly dominated his opponent. He ended up winning on points as a result of his numerous takedowns, but he passed up chance after chance at simple armbars or chokes.
A couple of weeks in a BJJ studio would help.....

 

[Wudang]

By the way, since there seems to be a lot of knowledgeable people here:

I'm going to start a strength training regimen next year in order to build up strength, tighten up ligaments, etc. I was thinking of later on taking some martial arts as a complement. What would you recommend if I mainly want to train agility and coordination?

Boxing. No question. Boxing conditioning combined with some time on a speed ball will meet those goals far better than the martial arts I favour.
For fighting I like the close range grappling of wu tai chi chuan but my time in a boxing club is some of the most useful time I have ever spent. Broken nose aside etc.


Oh - and nothing compares with checking the actual club out. Some clubs in my style are a total waste of time and some will leave you as a puddle of sweat on the floor. And if you don't enjoy the class at some level you won't go back. Horses for courses.

 

[Phrost]

If you do try to find a Tai Chi Chuan place, make sure you look for one that spars full contact, perhaps even sends people fight in local MMA events or grappling tournaments.

Because there's a lot of garbage Tai Chi out there that's little more than standing yoga for hippies and senior citizens.

 

[keale]

If you do try to find a Tai Chi Chuan place, make sure you look for one that spars full contact, perhaps even sends people fight in local MMA events or grappling tournaments.

Because there's a lot of garbage Tai Chi out there that's little more than standing yoga for hippies and senior citizens.

Just as an aside I do know several senior citizens that swear by tai chi saying it keeps them healthy.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Just as an aside I do know several senior citizens that swear by tai chi saying it keeps them healthy.

I've heard the same thing about Wii Bowling.

 

[keale]

I've heard the same thing about Wii Bowling.

I would imagine any type of activity would generally help. Whatever it is though if they enjoy it and it keeps them going I say rock on gramps!

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Boxing. No question. Boxing conditioning combined with some time on a speed ball will meet those goals far better than the martial arts I favour.

Hrm. Are most boxing clubs fine with just sparring? I'd rather not end up with a concussion.