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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Justinian2 said:
The recording of the 'confession' should have proved what we are talking about. Once again, it is the lack of professionalism a.k.a. ability of the police and prosecutor that is exasperating us all.

There are as many reasons to throw this case out as there are pieces of 'evidence'.
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Does anybody else actually think what Amanda went through was similar to what would have happened if the KGB had arrested you and decided to get a confession out of you in the mid 50's? Can we have a poll or something?
 
shuttlt said:
Does anybody else actually think what Amanda went through was similar to what would have happened if the KGB had arrested you and decided to get a confession out of you in the mid 50's? Can we have a poll or something?
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Who needs the KBG? The USA did illegal interrogations in Guantanimo Bay. Illegal interrogations happen almost everytime an innocent person is incarcerated. The rest of the world is probably worse than the USA, it's just that Americans are NOT sued for slander everytime they question the police. Had Amanda been sexually raped by the Perugian police (I am NOT implying she was sexually raped), they would have likely sued her for slander if she brought it up. You have to assume the worst in Italy because their ability to cover their tracks with slander charges.
 
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Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested:

This is very strange, I know, but really what happened is as confusing to me as it is to everyone else. I have been told there is hard evidence saying that I was at the place of the murder of my friend when it happened. This, I want to confirm, is something that to me, if asked a few days ago, would be impossible.

I know that Raffaele has placed evidence against me, saying that I was not with him on the night of Meredith's murder, but let me tell you this. In my mind there are things I remember and things that are confused. My account of this story goes as follows, despite the evidence stacked against me:

On Thursday November 1 I saw Meredith the last time at my house when she left around 3 or 4 in the afternoon. Raffaele was with me at the time. We, Raffaele and I, stayed at my house for a little while longer and around 5 in the evening we left to watch the movie Amelie at his house. After the movie I received a message from Patrik [sic], for whom I work at the pub "Le Chic". He told me in this message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at my work.

Now I remember to have also replied with the message: "See you later. Have a good evening!" and this for me does not mean that I wanted to meet him immediately. In particular because I said: "Good evening!" What happened after I know does not match up with what Raffaele was saying, but this is what I remember. I told Raffaele that I didn't have to work and that I could remain at home for the evening. After that I believe we relaxed in his room together, perhaps I checked my email. Perhaps I read or studied or perhaps I made love to Raffaele. In fact, I think I did make love with him.

However, I admit that this period of time is rather strange because I am not quite sure. I smoked marijuana with him and I might even have fallen asleep. These things I am not sure about and I know they are important to the case and to help myself, but in reality, I don't think I did much. One thing I do remember is that I took a shower with Raffaele and this might explain how we passed the time. In truth, I do not remember exactly what day it was, but I do remember that we had a shower and we washed ourselves for a long time. He cleaned my ears, he dried and combed my hair.

One of the things I am sure that definitely happened the night on which Meredith was murdered was that Raffaele and I ate fairly late, I think around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner I noticed there was blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that it was blood from the fish. After we ate Raffaele washed the dishes but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded the floor. But because he didn't have a mop I said we could clean it up tomorrow because we (Meredith, Laura, Filomena and I) have a mop at home. I remember it was quite late because we were both very tired (though I can't say the time).

The next thing I remember was waking up the morning of Friday November 2nd around 10am and I took a plastic bag to take back my dirty cloths to go back to my house. It was then that I arrived home alone that I found the door to my house was wide open and this all began. In regards to this "confession" that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion. Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.

However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.

But the truth is, I am unsure about the truth and here's why:

1. The police have told me that they have hard evidence that places me at the house, my house, at the time of Meredith's murder. I don't know what proof they are talking about, but if this is true, it means I am very confused and my dreams must be real.

2. My boyfriend has claimed that I have said things that I know are not true. I KNOW I told him I didn't have to work that night. I remember that moment very clearly. I also NEVER asked him to lie for me. This is absolutely a lie. What I don't understand is why Raffaele, who has always been so caring and gentle with me, would lie about this. What does he have to hide? I don't think he killed Meredith, but I do think he is scared, like me. He walked into a situation that he has never had to be in, and perhaps he is trying to find a way out by disassociating himself with me.

Honestly, I understand because this is a very scary situation. I also know that the police don't believe things of me that I know I can explain, such as:

1. I know the police are confused as to why it took me so long to call someone after I found the door to my house open and blood in the bathroom. The truth is, I wasn't sure what to think, but I definitely didn't think the worst, that someone was murdered. I thought a lot of things, mainly that perhaps someone got hurt and left quickly to take care of it. I also thought that maybe one of my roommates was having menstral [sic] problems and hadn't cleaned up. Perhaps I was in shock, but at the time I didn't know what to think and that's the truth. That is why I talked to Raffaele about it in the morning, because I was worried and wanted advice.

2. I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

3. I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think.

[illegible section]

I'm trying, I really am, because I'm scared for myself. I know I didn't kill Meredith. That's all I know for sure. In these flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrik as the murderer, but the way the truth feels in my mind, there is no way for me to have known because I don't remember FOR SURE if I was at my house that night. The questions that need answering, at least for how I'm thinking are:

1. Why did Raffaele lie? (or for you) Did Raffaele lie?

2. Why did I think of Patrik?

3. Is the evidence proving my pressance [sic] at the time and place of the crime reliable? If so, what does this say about my memory? Is it reliable?

4. Is there any other evidence condemning Patrik or any other person?

3. Who is the REAL murder [sic]? This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning testimone [sic] in this instance.

I have a clearer mind that I've had before, but I'm still missing parts, which I know is bad for me. But this is the truth and this is what I'm thinking at this time. Please don't yell at me because it only makes me more confused, which doesn't help anyone. I understand how serious this situation is, and as such, I want to give you this information as soon and as clearly as possible.

If there are still parts that don't make sense, please ask me. I'm doing the best I can, just like you are. Please believe me at least in that, although I understand if you don't. All I know is that I didn't kill Meredith, and so I have nothing but lies to be afraid of.
End of Amanda's note.
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Some confession...
 
shuttlt said:
True, but it's taken us this long to get copies of the two statements. I'm not holding my breath for Charlie, or any of the others, to release any more documentation relating to her arrest.


But not a legal requirement?
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Some quick research reveals that significant witnesses in murder cases and complainants in rape cases are recorded in the UK across all police forces.
 
shuttlt said:
<snip>

Originally Posted by Kestrel
The basic process of solving a crime in Perugia hasn't changed much since the days when they were prosecuting witches.
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Again, this is overly emotive. It isn't like the burning of witches, it isn't like the D-Day landings and it isn't like the KGB in the 1950's in anything but the most sweepingly melodramatic terms. If we're comparing this to witches, why not to the martyrdom of Christ?
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This actually has been done already (in a qualified form) - see post :)

There's not much new under 'this' sun.
 
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shuttlt said:
True, but it's taken us this long to get copies of the two statements. I'm not holding my breath for Charlie, or any of the others, to release any more documentation relating to her arrest.


But not a legal requirement?
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Not quite - they were never actually posted (supposed links to FOA perhaps) here, one wonders why ? but were available on PMF since summer IIRC (via FOA)
Nor have they been 'verified' - they came from FOA and as such ...well Errors and omissions may be expected. The link to the 'gift' on the FOA site that halides1 used a while back doesn't inspire confidence.

ETA Nor are they openly posted there (FOA) either AFAICS ?? Mary H got them from PMF it appears. I'm not the only one 'allergic' to downloading zip files from FOA it seeems :)
 
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shuttlt said:
Do interviews with witnesses?
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The police had four hours from the point where she went from witness to suspect to record the interrogation with Mignini at 5:45. Their excuse that they weren't prepared sounds like a blatant lie. What were they doing for those 4 hours? At the least, the 5:45 interrogation should have been recorded (but probably was).
 
Fontenot

shuttlt said:
Man, there is too damn much to read. :-) The case looks confusing and as yet unresolved. In any case, I'm not denying that people can make false confessions and false statements in interrogations, sometimes in pretty short order. As we both know there are even people who seek the police out in order to do so.

Was he of normal intelligence, and did he have false memories?

In any case, the post that you responded to was intended as a response to using examples of KGB interrogation techniques from the 50's, which I presume you would agree aren't a very good fit for what happened in Perugia?
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Fonenot was 20, and John Grisham describes him as impressionable. He confessed in less than two hours.
 
shuttlt said:
True, but it's taken us this long to get copies of the two statements. I'm not holding my breath for Charlie, or any of the others, to release any more documentation relating to her arrest.


But not a legal requirement?
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Shuttlt, Charlie Wilkes posted the original documents back in May and again a couple months ago. He made photocopies of the original Italian documents available as well as translations. The statements have been available here for quite some time.

The documents were first posted May 22 here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5957631#post5957631

and again here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6495874#post6495874
 
platonov said:
Not quite - they were never actually posted (supposed links to FOA perhaps) here, one wonders why ? but were available on PMF since summer IIRC (via FOA)
Nor have they been 'verified' - they came from FOA and as such ...well Errors and omissions may be expected. The link to the 'gift' on the FOA site that halides1 used a while back doesn't inspire confidence.
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Your bias is showing. Charlie's zip file includes the original Italian documents which no one has contested the authenticity of since they were posted back in May. Charlie has been an invaluable source of such documents, none of which have ever been proven to have been doctored or falsified in any such way. If you have reason to question any of the evidence documents he has posted then you need to cite actual reasons, not just paranoid bias.
 
I must admit the Shuttlt is correct. The police didn't keep Amanda up until the wee hours on Nov. 3. That is the evening she got a chance to buy some fresh underwear. Which is a for some reason indicates guilt, as if innocent girls never need to change their underwear.

Shuttlt doesn't mind that the police kept Amanda up until 5:30 AM on the morning of Nov. 3, and told her to be back at the station at 11 AM. Then went back to asking the same questions again and again. Trying once more to trip up the suspect and force an admission of guilt.

Amanda was at the police station again on the 4th. With the police asking exactly the same questions again and again. They have real skill at badgering a suspect until they confess to the crime.

On the 5th, they were really nice. They let Amanda go to school and have a bit of a normal day. (It wasn't quite normal, because she hadn't had a full nights sleep in days.) But once they got her into the police station, the gloves came off. Now it was 12 against one. An entire night of screaming, and yelling, and lies and abuse. They needed to roll Amanda that night because in the morning her mother would be in town. Mom would see what was going on and get Amanda a lawyer. Then the game would be over.
 
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I think you made a point about timings (01:45 and 05:45). I think you objected the assertion that Amanda's interrogation, where she made Patrick's name, lasted between 22:40 and 01:45 (less than 3 hours).

Incidentally, Amanda doesn't claimed she well treated after she made the name of Patrick, and this happend by 01:45.
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I correct my typing (this post was full of errors, sorry, too hasty in typing and correcting without reading back). Amanda claims she wasn't treated badly after she made the name of Patrick, while she describes in fact of being treated well from that moment.
And that moment is before 01:45.
 
platonov said:
Not quite - they were never actually posted (supposed links to FOA perhaps) here, one wonders why ? but were available on PMF since summer IIRC (via FOA)
Nor have they been 'verified' - they came from FOA and as such ...well Errors and omissions may be expected. The link to the 'gift' on the FOA site that halides1 used a while back doesn't inspire confidence.

ETA Nor are they openly posted there (FOA) either AFAICS ?? Mary H got them from PMF it appears. I'm not the only one 'allergic' to downloading zip files from FOA it seeems :)
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Platonov, for future reference, I'd prefer you don't waste my time pestering me to give you access to documents Charlie has posted if you're not going to download them anyway for some ridiculous fear of anything that comes from Charlie's site because you don't trust it.
 
shuttlt said:
It could also be that the police looked at what she had said, that she "vaguely remember[ed] Patrick killed her", and thought it reaked of ********.
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Hi, shuttlt!
From your post it's not clear if you mean their doubt was centered on the "vaguely" part or on the "killed her".

Here's what Perugian police chief had to say about it:
"Initially the American gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct and from that we were able to bring them in."

Looks like ILE not only embraced and identified with her statement, but in fact were expecting it.

In my opinion they needed that statement to be detailed enough to justify locking Patrick up.

ILE targeted Patrick from the moment they acquired the cell phone logs, noticed the exchange of texts and subsequent AK and RS phone's inactivity. They noticed immediately that he changed his SIM card. That, in concert with Amanda's inappropriate behavior and the possible black hair they retrieved made them certain they're on the right trail.
After stripping Raffaele of his shoes and noticing the similarity of tracks the confirmation bias kicked in and they were 100% sure they solved the case. The only thing left to do was to lock Amanda and Lumumba. On Raffaele they got the shoeprints and the knife he brought, Amanda was his girlfriend, so she was going down by association, but they got nothing on Patrick apart from their hunch. But this was only a question of pressing Amanda hard enough.

A night of hard work paid well and next day they were all on TV announcing "case closed".
 
shuttlt said:
They are talking about interrogations lasting 50-60 hours. The communists didn't allow people to go home, sleep with their boyfriends/girlfriends (in so far as their worries allowed them), go to college, eat pizza... with 2 hours of questioning here, 3 hours there dotted about.
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One of the things the East European countries used to do was to charge dissidents with "slandering the state", when they said things the authorities didn't like. Ring any bells?

Comparing what happened to Amanda to the Stazi, or the KGB is extremely silly. Please confirm it is a joke.
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"Comparing" doesn't mean "equating". It's perfectly valid to point out parallels, even if the overall situation is very different.
 
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