Who started both World Wars?

[9/11-investigator]

You owe me ANOTHER irony meter

You finally owe me a coherent post, written by yourself, of at least 10 sentences. Must not necessarily have to do with PH.

A recipy for pancakes will do.

 

[SanityGap]

Looks to me like the American government told that part of the forces to be vigilant where no attack was to be expected anyway. The UG gov wanted a self-inflicted wound to show to the American public.

But now I have a question to you:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=103



It is bloody Congress in the year 2000 itself that admits that the Roosevelt government knew that the Japanese fleet was approaching PH. Kimmel and Short apparently got rehabilitated!!!!

So why should I care what some less than amateur historians like you guys think about PH??!!

I see a familiar name credited as the author of that article, one of the names that also wrote the so called BBC documentary (which was clearly American in origin).
It's always the same names from different cross quoted sites.

So, where was the Enterprise going?

 

[Tolls]

Looks to me like the American government told that part of the forces to be vigilant where no attack was to be expected anyway. The UG gov wanted a self-inflicted wound to show to the American public.

As I keep pointing out to you, it was a general warning. It went to all forces in the Pacific. And (since you are clearly so ill-educated in the Pacific War), the Phillipines were attacked mere hours after the attack on Pearl Harbour.

So, how can Short and Kimmel be a scapegoat (as you say) if they were informed to be on alert? You still have not answered this question.

But now I have a question to you:

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=103



It is bloody Congress in the year 2000 itself that admits that the Roosevelt government knew that the Japanese fleet was approaching PH. Kimmel and Short apparently got rehabilitated!!!!

So why should I care what some less than amateur historians like you guys think about PH??!!

But you care what Congress says...remind me, what are their qualifications again? There is nothing in the intelligence reports available to the Roosevelt administration that shows they knew the Japanese were heading for Pearl Harbour rather than, say, the Phillipines. It would be ever so easy for you to point to those documents that show otherwise. How about the messages that were decrypted that showed where the fleet was?

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It looks like the defenders of the PH official story have backed off.

No surprises here.

Sorry, I've been ignoring you. Whatcha got?

 

[Dave Rogers]

There is nothing in the intelligence reports available to the Roosevelt administration that shows they knew the Japanese were heading for Pearl Harbour rather than, say, the Phillipines. It would be ever so easy for you to point to those documents that show otherwise. How about the messages that were decrypted that showed where the fleet was?

Just a point of clarification: we'd like to see documents that were decoded in 1941, that could have given advance warning of the attack to people who didn't already know where the target was. We don't need to see documents that were archived and decoded in 1944-5 (by which time there was a surplus of both staff and equipment available for decoding) and which could, with the benefit of hindsight, be capable of being interpreted as suggesting where the target might have been.

Dave

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I see a familiar name credited as the author of that article, one of the names that also wrote the so called BBC documentary (which was clearly American in origin).
It's always the same names from different cross quoted sites.

So, where was the Enterprise going?

Enterprise and Yorktown were delivering fighters to wake and Midway. You can see their trips here. Note that Enterprise was almost back to Pearl, she was actually due in on Saturday, but weather delayed her. Of course, FDR ordered that weather so as to save the carriers.

Robert B. Stinnett is a Research Fellow at The Independent Institute in Oakland, Calif., and the author of the book, Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor (Free Press). For further information, see the Pearl Harbor Archive.

Stinnett is a stone cold liar.

 

[9/11-investigator]

The assorted masterminds here clearly don't like Stinnett.

How about Congress?

http://www.kimmelfamily.net/Husband3.htm

Ah, wait you all are government loyalists, not to be confused with Congress, let alone The People.

After all, that would be populist.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The assorted masterminds here clearly don't like Stinnett.

How about Congress?

http://www.kimmelfamily.net/Husband3.htm

Ah, wait you all are government loyalists, not to be confused with Congress, let alone The People.

After all, that would be populist.

Sane minds will find this interesting. The Dorn Report

 

[9/11-investigator]

Sane minds will find this interesting. The Dorn Report

Otherwise I could recommend the works of Euclid.

Seriously, nobody is going to read that amount of text.

What is your point?

 

[TheRedWorm]

I see a familiar name credited as the author of that article, one of the names that also wrote the so called BBC documentary (which was clearly American in origin).
It's always the same names from different cross quoted sites.

So, where was the Enterprise going?

That's the thing about people living in an alternate reality; they almost never answer a direct question directly. Usually you just get waffle, word salad, evasion, and/or dodging in response.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Otherwise I could recommend the works of Euclid.

Seriously, nobody is going to read that amount of text.

What is your point?

I did say "sane", 9/11. You've proven repeatedly you have no interest in the documentary evidence surrounding these events. You don't even quote mine very well.

 

[MG1962]

Otherwise I could recommend the works of Euclid.

Seriously, nobody is going to read that amount of text.

What is your point?

Strange, a few pages back you described your dedication to reading history, yet baulk at such a short document - A document that even has a two page summary at the start for those with little time or short attention spans

 

[Tolls]

Just a point of clarification: we'd like to see documents that were decoded in 1941, that could have given advance warning of the attack to people who didn't already know where the target was. We don't need to see documents that were archived and decoded in 1944-5 (by which time there was a surplus of both staff and equipment available for decoding) and which could, with the benefit of hindsight, be capable of being interpreted as suggesting where the target might have been.

Dave

Spoilsport...

 

[9/11-investigator]

Strange, a few pages back you described your dedication to reading history, yet baulk at such a short document - A document that even has a two page summary at the start for those with little time or short attention spans

Anybody can drop a link to 4 meters worth of text.
I first would like to know if the 'dropper' understands what he drops.
Matter of efficiency.

 

[9/11-investigator]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_debate

The U.S. government has had ten official inquiries into the attack – the inquiry by Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox (1941), the Roberts Commission (1941–42), the Hart Inquiry (1944), the Army Pearl Harbor Board (1944), the Naval Court of Inquiry (1944), the Hewitt investigation, the Clarke investigation, the Congressional Inquiry (1945–46) and the top-secret inquiry by Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson, authorized by Congress and carried out by Henry Clausen (the Clausen Inquiry; 1946). The tenth inquiry, the Thurmond-Spence Hearing, took place in April 1995. The Dorn Report resulted from this tenth hearing.

All ten reported incompetence, underestimation and misapprehension of Japanese capabilities and intentions, problems resulting from excessive secrecy about cryptography, division of responsibility between Army and Navy (and lack of consultation between them), and lack of adequate manpower for intelligence (analysis, collection, processing).

No one is seriously expecting that the American state will implicate itself, right?
Hiroshima, destruction of Japanese cities, liquidation of the Japanese empire, all our making.

Sorry for that.

Ridiculous.

Of course not. Good 'ol Uncle Sam was minding it's own business and all over sudden, out of the blue, these gooks attacked. For no reason at all. A nation with a GBP 10 times as small as that of the US. PH was first, Milwaukee next. Everybody knows that!

Sigh.

I like this phrase though:

problems resulting from excessive secrecy about cryptography

Only Roosevelt knew.

 

[Hans]

Denial is very efficient - which is probably why you use it all the time

 

[Dave Rogers]

Seriously, nobody is going to read that amount of text.

Is that a prediction, or an earnestly stated wish? Because if anybody does read that text and then goes on to do a few moments' research, they'll find out that the crucial intelligence that Kimmel and Short never received, referred to by conspiracy theorists as the "Japanese Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot message of 24th September 1941" was in fact nothing of the sort; it is in fact an instruction to a couple of Japanese spies in Hawaii that, as it appeared that war was imminent, they should report on how many ships were present in which sections of PH. Now, of course, with the benefit of 20:20 hindsight, we can see that the reason for this was in part to facilitate the attack; however, without benefit of hindsight, it's anything but clear. In wartime, knowing which enemy ships are in the enemy's main forward base, which have recently arrived, and which have recently left, which are in a state of readiness and which are under repair, is crucially important intelligence whatever naval operations you're planning. In effect, the 24th September message was the null hypothesis, and should have had no particular relevance; spies in an enemy naval base will always be expected to report this exact kind of information, and it doesn't actually point to any specific target or type of attack.

But, if you're lucky, nobody will bother, and you'll be able to get away with making things up and presenting them as established fact. Let's hope everybody sticks to reading the biased commentaries that you favour over actual historical sources, because racism is far more important than reality.

Dave

 

[MG1962]

No one is seriously expecting that the American state will implicate itself, right?

But the same rules do not apply to Germany?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Of course not. Good 'ol Uncle Sam was minding it's own business and all over sudden, out of the blue, these gooks attacked. For no reason at all. A nation with a GBP 10 times as small as that of the US. PH was first, Milwaukee next. Everybody knows that!

Clearly, sinking all the battleships in the Pacific Fleet was really no more than a bit of attention-seeking mischief. FDR should have just chuckled gently, commented "Those little scamps are at it again," and told Cordell Hull to have a quiet word with their parents. After all, that's how civilised nations always behave when other countries kill a couple of thousand of their people in a sneak attack.

Dave

 

[9/11-investigator]

But the same rules do not apply to Germany?

In contrast to Anglosphere let alone Russia, Germany has practised Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung to a sickening level. Sickening, because they deplored acts they did not commit!

But hey, I am here to help you with that deficit, Anglosphere!