Moderated WTC 1 features list, initiation model / WTC 2 features list, collapse model

Never measure the location in space of a moving object from one point only. Triangulate it and get back to us with the results.

Had the pilot of the Lady Be Good bothered to ask for one more radio locator, they might have flown another mission.

This stuff is high school geometry, people.

Please show us your work, or excuse our calling out the dog.
 
You're not supposed to say "high school," lefty, and not because one of them is British. I can't say why, because I'm being intentionally obtuse.
 
TFK post 620: "Ahhhh, let me see if I understand your current indignation.

a. You clowns have been picking apart these videos for about a year...
b. You've been asserting that the antenna is shifting horizontally & vertically with minimal tilt...
c. a dozen or so people here have been telling you that, in order to verify your assertion, you need to analyze a sequenced alternate oblique view and to calculate true 3D motion...
d. both you & femr have insisted that oblique views are unnecessary, but rather, linear displacements with gross, unsubstantiated assumptions as to the axis of rotation are sufficient...

And now you think that "we are lazy" because we haven't done the correct analysis, the analysis we suggested immediately & you rejected, the analysis you now state is necessary, the analysis that you should have done in the first place.

That about cover it...?"


No. The list of features is already complete within itself. That is why you have not been able to debunk squat. You are lazy because you show no capacity to critically fact-check the NIST report. You are not a researcher, you are a groupie.

My challenge as an editor is to present material in such a way that even the most egoistic of minds that show no ability to be skeptical and fact-check information cannot debunk it. One of the biggest problems I will encounter is that many people will "play dumb" or "play 'possum", pretending not to understand even the smallest of things in order to maintain their illusory views.

I do not need to construct any 3-D vector from projections. The information was given to you using the simplest of techniques: Tracking horizontal and vertical movement on flat, 2-D projections. Many times there wasn't even a need to scale the distance because we were looking at timing and the order of events only.

The presentation was kept "Koko the gorilla" simple because of the tendency of people to "play 'possum" in the face of the simplest of graphs to maintain their illusions that south wall failure as the WTC1 initiating event was "proven".

For example, here is the NW corner up to about 1/15th of a second before it begins to accelerate downward at between 0.5 and 1.0g:

nbc-sauret_120-220nwcorner.gif


This is your "tilt phase", folks. As I've mentioned many times, tilt would be visible as observed drop. This simple presentation requires no complex 3-D reconstruction. You simply measure drop at the moment the the downward acceleration shifts from about 0 to 0.5 tp 1.0g. You can see the north wall is not tilting significantly in the interval between frames 120 and 220 as a tilt of only 1 degree produces a drop more noticable that what you see., and you can see from drop measurements that it's acceleration makes a huge, sharp transition around frame 224 (at 60fps).

So let's play 'possum and pretend the north wall tilted significantly before failing anyway. And this is what I have to deal with.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

I have the mathematical tools ready to reconstruct 3-D vectors from two or more 2-D flat projections, but it is not necessary to the argument at all. Think of it as simply one more method presented to an audience in which many people have a short memory and attention span.

For me, 3-D displacement vector reconstruction is just "icing on the cake" as I edit the list into a form that can overcome your mental apathy.
 
Last edited:
I do not need to construct any 3-D vector from projections.

Unless you want us to assume that you have more than a room-temp IQ and a smidgen of integrity.

The presentation was kept "Koko the gorilla" simple because of the tendency of people to "play 'possum" in the face of the simplest of graphs to maintain their illusions that south wall failure as the WTC1 initiating event was "proven".
Actually, I am begining to wonder if you have Koko's capacity for creative thinking.

I have the mathematical tools ready to reconstruct 3-D vectors from two or more 2-D flat projections, but it is not necessary to the argument at all.

Bull flops. You are trying to sell a bunch of nerds with more experience over a wider variety of subjects than you could possible grasp an idea that an old hose-dragger and mess sergeant can identify by smell as having not come out of a rational person's mouth. To locate an object in space, you need an absolute minimum of TWO data points on the same plane and axis.

Think of it as simply one more method presented to an audience with a short memory and attention span.

Oh, here's the problem. You're treating us like members of AE911Twoof.

For me, 3-D displacement vector reconstruction is just "icing on the cake" as I edit the list into a form that can overcome your mental apathy.

That is because you are incapable of thinking outside the AE911Twoof compost bin.

Grow up and do your homework. Verify your findings from another reference point or admit that the nerds caught you being lazy.
 
For example, here is the NW corner up to about 1/15th of a second before it begins to accelerate downward at between 0.5 and 1.0g:

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_misc/nbc-sauret_120-220nwcorner.gif[/qimg]
Bigfoot? Ward Connally's arm? A UFO?


ETA - What Myriad said:
Myriad said:
Also, I've been waiting for someone else to say it but: the repeatedly posted animated GIFs of that throbbing antenna are changing my perception of the psychology of the Truth Movement, and not in a good way.
 
Last edited:
Leftyseargent post 625: "Oh, here's the problem. You're treating us like members of AE911Twoof."

In so far as being cultish and propagandistic, I see little difference between you. If the subject wasn't about mass murder and rewriting American and world history, I wouldn't mind so much. Because it is, I find the tendency to play very loose with the facts of both debunkers and AE911T to be morally repulsive.

LS, do you need to track the NW corner in 3-D to estimate the amount of north face tilt between the two frames shown?

nbc-sauret_120-220nwcorner.gif


So what is your excuse for not understanding the relation between drop and north face tilt angle?

LS: "Bull flops. You are trying to sell a bunch of nerds with more experience over a wider variety of subjects than you could possible grasp an idea that an old hose-dragger and mess sergeant can identify by smell as having not come out of a rational person's mouth"

That is your illusion. You do not understand how easily you can be fooled and how easily you have been fooled. Wrapped in the soft blanket of egoistic certainty, you can't even measure an angle correctly yet fancy yourselves intellectual gods.

If you had the capacity to understand the contents of this thread, you wouldn't write such a silly post.
 
Last edited:
In so far as being cultish and propagandistic, I see little difference between you. If the subject wasn't about mass murder and rewriting American and world history,

Nobody on the debunker side is stupid enough to believe that Little Dickie proved anything with his box-dropping game, other than the fact that his is a simpleton. Nobody on this side thinks that the dust cloud in anyway resemebled a pyroclastic flow. Nobody on this side is stupid enough to think that it is possible to use explosives or thermite surreptitiously.

Nobody on this side will give an instant of respect to a blithering idiot who would host the opions of a lunatic who thinks a nuclear weapon was in any way involved.

And here I am adressing the difference only between us and the least psychopathic of our opponents.

LS, do you need to track the NW corner in 3-D to estimate the amount of north face tilt between the two frames shown?

Only a total dimbulb thinks you don't.

So what is your excuse for not understanding the relation between drop and north face tilt angle?

You don't get to do that. What is your excuse for not grasping the concept of "triangulation."

You do not understand how easily you can be fooled and how easily you have been fooled. Wrapped in the soft blanket of egoistic certainty, you can't even measure an angle correctly yet fancy yourselves intellectual gods.

Stop that. You do not have the chops to re-write the principles of simple geometry. The Babylonians would have known this stuff better than you do.

If you had the capacity to understand the contents of this thread, you wouldn't write such a silly post.

Had you any integrity, you would go home.
 
Major Tom:
You said that the upper west wall pulled in around the same time the antenna dropped and shifted. You also claim that the antenna drop is an indication of core failure. Look at this schematic and explain how you came to this conclusion





Did you detect any outward movement around the 107 floor?
 
Last edited:
Leftysergeant post 628: "Nobody on the debunker side is stupid enough to believe that Little Dickie proved anything with his box-dropping game, other than the fact that his is a simpleton. Nobody on this side thinks that the dust cloud in anyway resemebled a pyroclastic flow. Nobody on this side is stupid enough to think that it is possible to use explosives or thermite surreptitiously."

Nobody on my "side" either. Just whose "side" do you think I represent?

There are independent researchers that have gone beyond "both sides" a while ago. I called the two sides Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum earlier.

It is not a football game. I try to find out what really happened. You feed fake, illusory puppet show debates between Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum.

I don't have a "group". I don't need one.
 
Leftysergeant post 628: "Nobody on the debunker side is stupid enough to believe that Little Dickie proved anything with his box-dropping game, other than the fact that his is a simpleton. Nobody on this side thinks that the dust cloud in anyway resemebled a pyroclastic flow. Nobody on this side is stupid enough to think that it is possible to use explosives or thermite surreptitiously."

Nobody on my "side" either. Just whose "side" do you think I represent?

There are independent researchers that have gone beyond "both sides" a while ago. I called the two sides Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum earlier.

It is not a football game. I try to find out what really happened. You feed fake, illusory puppet show debates between Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum.

I don't have a "group". I don't need one.

Tom,

Here's something explainable in a way you'd understand:

You admit that you have no idea what happened on 9/11, ok.

You admit that 9/11 was some "Government cover-up, red flag, inside job", alright.

You agree with the Truthers about the "Inside Job" theory, alrighty then.

Then you're guilty by association! You've chosen a side, the Truther side. Kind of like the "Dark Side of the force" of Reality, it's called Stupidity.
 
Leftysergeant post 628: "Nobody on the debunker side is stupid enough to believe that Little Dickie proved anything with his box-dropping game, other than the fact that his is a simpleton. Nobody on this side thinks that the dust cloud in anyway resemebled a pyroclastic flow. Nobody on this side is stupid enough to think that it is possible to use explosives or thermite surreptitiously."

Nobody on my "side" either. Just whose "side" do you think I represent?

There are independent researchers that have gone beyond "both sides" a while ago. I called the two sides Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum earlier.

It is not a football game. I try to find out what really happened. You feed fake, illusory puppet show debates between Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum.

I don't have a "group". I don't need one.

You represent a tiny group of people who do not seem to understand what experts from around the world do, and in fact imply that they are incompetent.
 
=Major_Tom;6653802]Leftyseargent post 625: "Oh, here's the problem. You're treating us like members of AE911Twoof."

In so far as being cultish and propagandistic, I see little difference between you. If the subject wasn't about mass murder and rewriting American and world history, I wouldn't mind so much. Because it is, I find the tendency to play very loose with the facts of both debunkers and AE911T to be morally repulsive.

Oh lets be honest,this thread has nothing to do with "mass murder and rewriting American and world history", it only is a outlet for your insane preoccupation with the exact mechanics of the failure of WTC1.

You imagine that because you discover a minor flaw in NISTs report you make the whole report null and void.

Sorry but the real world doesn't work like that.............they know that the exact modeling of such a event is impossible because there is so many unknowns that there will be errors. You finding one will occasion nothing more than a yawn.

And until you write a peer reviewed paper and get it published in a real building industry journal you are not even going to get a yawn!

Can't you grasp that it doesn't matter! Unless someone finds actual evidence of another initiation method other than impact and fire (and after nine years of FAIL on that.....good luck!) then NOBODY CARES OR SHOULD CARE.:boggled:
 
In this first example, we look from the Sauret projection at the whole building above floor 92, flashing between frames 120 and 220 (just over 1.5 sec interval). Remember that the NW corner starts to accelerate downwards around frame 224.

In order to see the degree and direction of local deformation at any point, just hold your pointer still over that point and notice the degree of wiggle.

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_misc/sauret_120-220.gif

Notes:

1) The east corner of the building stays pretty still. The whole portion below floor 98 stays pretty still.
2) The NW corner window washer actually wiggles east-west. Almost no downward displacement, but observable eastward displacement.

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_misc/nbc-sauret_120-220nwcorner.gif[/qimg]

3) Notice that the whole west corner above floor 98 is being pulled inwards. The pull-in first becomes noticable just above floor 98 and grows much stronger in the top few floors.
4) From this projection, the antenna is moving downwards and hooking to the east. It is as if it is falling and slightly pivoting. It seems as if it's eastward angle increases slightly over this interval.

[qimg]http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911_misc/nbc-sauret_120-220ant.gif[/qimg]

Notice how the antenna fall seems directly related to the pull-in of the window washer on the NW corner. As if the building is being pulled downward from the eastern side of the core, pulling the antenna down with a slight pivot and the NW corner with it.

The outer columns of the building provide an excellent grid that allows us to see how the whole upper west side is being pulled over to the east, but the east side of the building remains still.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

This simple visual tool allows you to verify that the tendencies documented in the drop and drift curves shown to you represent very real movement that grows into visible deformations. Movement from as early as Sauret frame 140 is visible to the naked eye.


Here's your problem with the Koko version using the Sauret video.

Assume the upper block tilts along with the antenna as one rigid body. Assume the axis of rotation of the tilt is along the north wall at the 95th floor. Assume we are observing from the north side, so the tilt is directly away from the camera. Assume we are observing from a distance and from approximately horizontal, so that the influence of perspective is minimal and can be disregarded in the first pass.

s1 is the height of the upper block, from the hinge to the north roof line.
s2 is the lateral offset of the base of the antenna, from the hinge
s3 is the height of whichever feature of the antenna we are observing, from the base of the antenna.
a is the angle of rotation
t1 is the vertical component of the displacement (that is, the "sink") of the roof line at angle a
t2 is the sink of the base of the antenna (not directly visible) at angle a
t3 is the sink of the chosen antenna feature at angle a

t1 = s1 * (1 - cos (a))
t2 = t1 + s2 * sin (a)
t3 = t2 + s3 * (1 - cos (a))

Now some numbers (distances in feet)

s1 = 240
s2 = 100
s3 = 140 (approximately)

at a = 0.5 degrees:

t1 = .01 ft
t2 = .88 ft
t3 = .89 ft

at a = 1 degree:

t1 = .04 ft
t2 = 1.79 ft
t3 = 1.81 ft

at a = 2 degrees:

t1 = .15 ft
t2 = 3.64 ft
t2 = 3.58 ft

Thus we see that at small angles, the expected observed "sink" of the north wall for a small angle of rotation is very small, about half an inch at one degree. And it is much smaller (by a factor of about 40 at one degree!) than the expected observed "sink" of any part of the antenna.

The reason for that is that the vertical component of the rotational movement increases (for any given angle of rotation) as a linear function of horizontal distance from the axis of rotation (or "hinge"). The north wall top edge starts out aligned with the hinge and moves only a few feet away from it as a result of the rotation, while the antenna starts out 100 feet from the hinge. As the angle increases, the wall's drop increases as the complement of the cosine of the rotation angle (very slowly, at small angles), while the antenna's drop increases as the sin of the rotation angle (more rapidly, at small angles). Look up graphs of those two functions to see the difference in their slopes at small angles.

So, apparent (and actual) vertical antenna movement much greater than the vertical NW corner movement is exactly what we would expect to see with a rigid rotating upper block hinged at the north wall, early in the rotation when the angle is small.

Perspective corrections to the vertical drop (the plane of the antenna is a bit farther away from the camera than the plane of the north wall, so antenna movements measured in image pixels would represent a greater real distance moved than wall movements measured in image pixels) would affect the numbers a little bit, but would not even begin to change the overall result shown above.

Of course we cannot see the north wall drop very much at the start of rotation. Of course the drop of the antenna is much greater. Of course for any given method of detecting displacement, of limited sensitivity, we will first detect the antenna movement before we can detect the wall movement that is over an order of magnitude less. This is exactly what we would expect for an initial rotation phase.

The difference between wall movement and antenna movement in your "Koko" images seems to be closer to 20-fold than 40-fold, which probably means that the mean axis of rotation was not exactly precisely aligned or square with the north wall. That misalignment and resulting twisting accounts for the lateral movements seen in your Koko gifs, and is also not at all surprising.

At this point a more thorough analysis in 3D from multiple angles is your only hope, because the gorilla isn't supporting your argument.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
And until you write a peer reviewed paper and get it published in a real building industry journal you are not even going to get a yawn!

Not to derail... but I'm going to derail to go all pedantic on everyone. :D

Getting a legit paper published in a legit journal is actually just the start of the knowledge being validated in the field. It still must be accurate and robust enough to survive any criticisms that come after publication and it has to have sufficient utility to be referenced by other papers. Mere publication of the knowledge does not in and of itself validate anything. It can't; no matter how big the research team, they're still only representing a view from their limited perspective. That's why we see a multiplicity of studies, as well as the occasional meta-analysis take place. Anyway, as an illustration of what I'm getting at, take a look at a pair of randomly chosen published articles (which, BTW, have zero to do with truther proposals) that were written to refute either a hypothesis forwarded by other papers, or a specific accumulation of knowledge:
The first paper directly cites other, specific published papers it claims to refute. The second is more tackling an existing body of works. But my point is that both of these illustrate what I'm saying. Any conclusion drawn in any paper will either stand up to further scrutiny when the findings from other studies get published, or they'll be shown to be erroneous due to the light shed by further research. But the knowledge generation process is ongoing; it doesn't halt in its tracks with the publication of one work. And that's the mistake that's been made with the truthers: The thought that the publication actually "proves" that they're right.

No, it doesn't. What it is is the starting point for that information to be used by others to conduct further knowledge generation. And that leads to the second point I made: A study must also provide enough knowledge to be used by other studies, whether those other studies are supportive or refutative. Again, look at the above papers. I'm not even sure they're correct in their refutation of previous works (I'm not an expert in the fields those papers and the previous works cited within exist in). For all I know, those two links are the aberrations, and the knowledge they purport to refute is what's correct. But the point is, the studies conducted are done well enough for one to build on the other. And in turn, some others will build on these. But that can only happen if the knowledge documented is sufficiently accurate (and as a side note, sufficiently honest, so as to give later researchers a solid platform from which to analyze and/or critique) to test via further studies.

And that's why the critiques of the Bentham paper, as well as any other "studies" that truthers and other pseudoscientists/woo peddlers in any other field of woo/quackery/whatever are so damning: It's because they don't understand this process, and what peer review and journal publication actually represents. Yes, all that conspiracy myth making is being criticized because it's factually wrong. But it's also being criticized because it illustrates just how dead wrong woo peddlers get the whole process of knowledge generation. That's the point that conspiracy fantasists miss, and it's also the reason that the specific critique against Steven Jones was so harsh: He knows what the valid process is. Yet, he circumvents it, then tries to sell people that his alternative is legitimate. He commits a double mockery in comitting pseudoscience and trying to legitimize the illegitimate. Which is why I characterize him as a fraud rather than a misled fool: As a published university scientist, he does know the difference. Yet he takes the route through Bentham Open, commits lousy methodology in the process, and messes up his conclusions by drawing ones unsupported by his data to boot. He operated in a way antithetical to legitimate science. And he's never apologized for it!

But, back on topic: My ultimate point is legitimate publication is only the start of validation. Not the end point.


--------

Can't you grasp that it doesn't matter! Unless someone finds actual evidence of another initiation method other than impact and fire (and after nine years of FAIL on that.....good luck!) then NOBODY CARES OR SHOULD CARE.:boggled:

To change gears from above: I couldn't agree with this more. A sequence of critiques can only travel so far before something must be asserted. The fact of the matter is, no truther has even come close to disproving the currently accepted theory. All they've either tried to do is show that the basis for the conclusions is wrong (and demonstrated utter ignorance regarding what knowledge exists in the first place), or that there's evidence of an alternate possibility for collapse propogation (which actually doesn't address initiation, and which also happens to be fatally flawed). Even if they were more disciplined and academic, their output shows how miserably they've failed.

But, their efforts always aimed at the general population, who tends not to have all the information to begin with. As I've said before, their goal is no longer knowledge generation or narrative validation. It's nothing more than proselytization.
 
t1 = s1 * (1 - cos (a))
t2 = t1 + s2 * sin (a)
t3 = t2 + s3 * (1 - cos (a))

Now some numbers (distances in feet)

s1 = 240
s2 = 100
s3 = 140 (approximately)

at a = 0.5 degrees:

t1 = .01 ft
t2 = .88 ft
t3 = .89 ft

at a = 1 degree:

t1 = .04 ft
t2 = 1.79 ft
t3 = 1.81 ft

at a = 2 degrees:

t1 = .15 ft
t2 = 3.64 ft
t2 = 3.58 ft
That last number's a little off (t3 should be larger than t2), but my independent calculations confirmed the other numbers to within roundoff error. My formulas are for a negative angle, just because I drew my picture with the north wall to the left:

t1 = s1 * (1 - cos θ)
t2 = s1 - (s2 * sin θ + s1 cos θ)
t3 = s1 + s3 - (s2 * sin θ + (s1 + s3) * cos θ)

at θ = -0.5 degrees:

t1 = .01 ft
t2 = .88 ft
t3 = .89 ft

at θ = -1 degree:

t1 = .04 ft
t2 = 1.78 ft
t3 = 1.80 ft

at θ = -2 degrees:

t1 = .15 ft
t2 = 3.64 ft
t2 = 3.72 ft

At this point a more thorough analysis in 3D from multiple angles is your only hope, because the gorilla isn't supporting your argument.
 
Myriad post 634: "Assume the upper block tilts along with the antenna as one rigid body."

It is not. Deformation is provable mathematically:

sauret_fieldA_060sm.png


Distance b-r does not contract as a rigid body when compared to r-98 or a-b. It contracts too soon, too much.

There are fixed linear relations between tilt and the contraction of a-b, b-r and r-98 over the first 3 degrees if the rotation is rigid. See the link for more details:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...op=view_page&PAGE_id=176&MMN_position=364:364

Myriad: "Assume the axis of rotation of the tilt is along the north wall at the 95th floor."

It's not. You can see it is the 98th floor in the west and NE viewpoints.

Myriad: "Assume we are observing from a distance and from approximately horizontal, so that the influence of perspective is minimal and can be disregarded in the first pass"

Your not. You are looking about 12 degrees upward. That makes all the difference.

Myriad: "Thus we see that at small angles, the expected observed "sink" of the north wall for a small angle of rotation is very small, about half an inch at one degree. And it is much smaller (by a factor of about 40 at one degree!) than the expected observed "sink" of any part of the antenna."

Incorrect. Linear relations between drop and angle are given in the link above.

Myriad: "At this point a more thorough analysis in 3D from multiple angles is your only hope"

Incorrect. Here is the NW corner of a model of WTC1 rotating only one degree about the 98th floor seen from the Sauret perspective.

The actual NW corner movement is shown behind it:

1degtilt.gif


A one degree tilt would be noticable as you can see. Even one degree tilt drops the NW corner down more than what is witnessed.

And guys, thats only one degree. How many degrees do you imagine the north wall tilted before failure?

All this was included in the links. Did you read them?

>>>>>>>

To be fair, Koko wouldn't be able to do a thing with the Sauret clip.

My mention of the gorilla was in reference to comparing the artwork of R Mackey with the CNN west clip. Koko would be able to tell the difference between 1 degree and 8 degrees better than what I have seen here. I believe that because it requires only a simple learning skill and almost no analytical reasoning at all.
 
Last edited:
Myriad post 634:

It would be really nice if you could learn to use the QUOTE function properly. Sometimes, posts get removed to AAH, for example; then post 634 is ppst 634 no longer, and it becomes harder to navigate the thread.
Thanks.
In the following quotes, I am regrouping your paragraphs a little.

"Assume the upper block tilts along with the antenna as one rigid body."
It is not.
...
Myriad: "Assume the axis of rotation of the tilt is along the north wall at the 95th floor."

It's not. ...

Myriad: "Assume we are observing from a distance and from approximately horizontal, so that the influence of perspective is minimal and can be disregarded in the first pass"

Your not.
...
Myriad: "At this point a more thorough analysis in 3D from multiple angles is your only hope"

Incorrect. Here is the NW corner of a model of WTC1 rotating only one degree about the 98th floor seen from the Sauret perspective.

The actual NW corner movement is shown behind it:

[qimg]http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9973/1degtilt.gif[/qimg]

A one degree tilt would be noticable as you can see. Even one degree tilt drops the NW corner down more than what is witnessed.

I think there is a slight misunderstandment of what Myriads assumptions, and the conclusions he draws, mean.
Myriad is not claiming that his assumptions are true. He merely shows you mathematically that your 2D-analysis is prone to missing or misinterpreting geometrical relations. Showing that Myriad's assumptions do not result in movements that match reality doesn't invalidate his point at all.
I am sure none of us believe the entire upper block including antenna was totally rigid throughout the entire tilt. Myriad shows you that, if it were, and if you were looking level and perpendicular, then apparent movement of the antenna would be larger by more than an order of magnitude than movement of the building edge. He just put some real numbers to a simplified model, to show that observations in 2D could easily be misleading. Of course, for a full analysis, you'd need to adjust for real camera position, some non-rigidity, etc., and you'd get somewhat diffetent numbers, but the point still stands: You are likely to get much larger apparent movements of the antenna.

You are looking about 12 degrees upward. That makes all the difference.

No, it doesn't make all the difference. It only makes some of the difference.
Would be nice if you could support that claim, or clarify what you mean by it, by calculating numbers. Stated as you do, I'd discard it.


...
There are fixed linear relations between tilt and the contraction of a-b, b-r and r-98 over the first 3 degrees if the rotation is rigid. See the link for more details:
...
Myriad: "Thus we see that at small angles, the expected observed "sink" of the north wall for a small angle of rotation is very small, about half an inch at one degree. And it is much smaller (by a factor of about 40 at one degree!) than the expected observed "sink" of any part of the antenna."

Incorrect. Linear relations between drop and angle are given in the link above.

I only took a quick glance at your page and the links - it's a little over my head at this time, but my instinct tells me you are wrong about the linear relations, and your idea of what the factor of proportionality is may be off. I'll leave that to Myriad.


And guys, thats only one degree. How many degrees do you imagine the north wall tilted before failure?

Depends on what you mean by "failure". To some, any tilting of the north wall would already constitute failure :p


To be fair, Koko wouldn't be able to do a thing with the Sauret clip.

My mention of the gorilla was in reference to comparing the artwork of R Mackey with the CNN west clip. Koko would be able to tell the difference between 1 degree and 8 degrees better than what I have seen here. I believe that because it requires only a simple learning skill and almost no analytical reasoning at all.

This, after R. Mackey explained what his artwork was, and what it wasn't??
 
There are fixed linear relations between tilt and the contraction of a-b, b-r and r-98 over the first 3 degrees if the rotation is rigid.
False. Your line r is the roof line, not the base of the antenna. As Myriad's simplified calculations demonstrate, the base of the antenna drops much faster than the roof line. That's why b-r decreases much faster than a-b or r-98.

Myriad: "Assume we are observing from a distance and from approximately horizontal, so that the influence of perspective is minimal and can be disregarded in the first pass"

Your not. You are looking about 12 degrees upward. That makes all the difference.
Myriad didn't say his assumption was perfectly accurate. His assumption was close enough to demonstrate several problems with your approach, including your claim above of a linear relationship between three differences.

Myriad: "Thus we see that at small angles, the expected observed "sink" of the north wall for a small angle of rotation is very small, about half an inch at one degree. And it is much smaller (by a factor of about 40 at one degree!) than the expected observed "sink" of any part of the antenna."

Incorrect. Linear relations between drop and angle are given in the link above.
That claimed relationship is incorrect, as Myriad's calculations demonstrate.

Myriad is not claiming that his assumptions are true. He merely shows you mathematically that your 2D-analysis is prone to missing or misinterpreting geometrical relations. Showing that Myriad's assumptions do not result in movements that match reality doesn't invalidate his point at all.
Oystein's right.

I am sure none of us believe the entire upper block including antenna was totally rigid throughout the entire tilt. Myriad shows you that, if it were, and if you were looking level and perpendicular, then apparent movement of the antenna would be larger by more than an order of magnitude than movement of the building edge.
Friendly amendment: Myriad showed that, because the antenna is not in line with the north wall, the actual drop of the antenna would be more than an order of magnitude greater than the actual drop of the building edge.

Major_Tom's claimed linear relationship between a-b, b-r and r-98 is based on his implicit false assumption that the antenna is in line with the wall.
 

Back
Top Bottom