Why is there so much crackpot physics?

[AnnoyingPony]

The only difference is that the mainstream has "supernatural dead entities', and some currently existing yet physically impotent on Earth entities. So what?

They're not dead because they were never alive to begin with. And what "entities" are you talking about?

Sure it is. Inflation is certainly just as "supernatural" of an energy source as any "living being" ever proposed.

Supernatural means that it's above nature, that it doesn't occur in compliance with the laws of the natural universe. Everything used to explain the Big Bang is consistent with what we already know about the universe.

Sure they do. They depend on it for their daily bread. If you rock the boat too much you lose your job.

Academia doesn't work that way. They aren't a coherent group with an orthodoxy. If you find enough consistent evidence to back up a claim for a new theory, your name is basically guaranteed to go down in history as a pioneer. For instance, Charles Darwin.

They claim that all observable matter was "created" in a singular event. That's a "creation myth".

Creation myths are just symbolic stories, narratives designed to explain how things are without any evidence to support them. The Big Bang is not a story. It is a scientific theory with evidence to support it.

Were they there and saw it, or is like Genesis where we go "in the beginning the invisible sky entity inflation say "let their be light"?

The assertion that they had to be there to know how it happened is insane troll logic. How do investigators solve murders? Are they actually present at every murder, or do they see the aftermath and come to a conclusion from analyzing the data around them? Is a murder case also a "myth"?

Anyway, I don't feel like wasting my time explaining simple logic and science to Arthur Mann's sock puppet.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Pffftt... so particle physics is just nothing more than religious mumbo-jumbo

Not at all. You skipped that part about particle physics theory having *HOPE* of directly seeing the Higgs here on Earth. When can I expect to see inflation show up in a lab experiment?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Er, no. That isn't an image of inflation, it's an image of the physical universe and a handwave: "Inflation did it". Of course you can't demonstrate *ANY* of those "properties' assigned to inflation in a real lab. They are all "made up" properties, like a theist make "make up" attributes of a deity and then handwave at the sky.

Actually, an analysis of the WMAP data did confirm numerous predictions of Guth's inflationary theory. Try reading the link first.

Btw, I hope you have fun continuing to worship your priestly class of particle physicists and their made up "Quark-gluon gods"

 

[Sideroxylon]

I think you're a little confused, it's the dogmatic establishment where the crackpots find a home, not among its critics. Where else can you suggest "unobservable" stuff like "black hole" or "dark matter" and still get away with calling yourself a "scientist". These people aren't scientists, they're clowns.

"Organized" science is just as fruitless and misguided as "organized religion", once you set up an established structure, that structure will perpetuate itself, even in the absence of conflicting evidence. Look how long the "flat earth" model persisted in the gestalt hive mind, look at ptolemic epicycles, look at spontaneous generation, or any of the uncountable myths that were held as the consensus for ages. Consensus is not the way to do science, that's why there are so many crackpot "physicists" suggesting ridiculous fables like "big bang" or "black hole". They're just going with the flow.

But the good ideas won out in the end though, didn't they? Do you think that conservatism in science can play a valuable role by keeping efforts and resources focused long enough to make new discoveries through the existing paradigm?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Not at all. You skipped that part about particle physics theory having *HOPE* of directly seeing the Higgs here on Earth. When can I expect to see inflation show up in a lab experiment?

So plate tectonics is also merely pseudo-religion since it cannot be shown to occur in a laboratory experiment? Those geologists are just pushing their religion!!!11!1

ETA: Applying Michael Mozina's standards, here are other "religions" posing as "science" because they cannot be replicated directly in the lab...

Weather & climate science
Comparative planetology
Solar physics
All forms of celestial mechanics

... anyone got any others? See how much fun semantic word games can be?

 

[Michael Mozina]

They're not dead because they were never alive to begin with. And what "entities" are you talking about?

Where do I get some "inflation" to put into a real experiment to demonstrate any of it's "assumed" "properties"?

Supernatural means that it's above nature,

What other vector or scalar field in nature experience multiple exponential increases in volume with little or no change in density. It's as "supernatural" an entity as they come.

that it doesn't occur in compliance with the laws of the natural universe.

Where can I go to get 'inflation"?

Everything used to explain the Big Bang is consistent with what we already know about the universe.

No. Only 4% is "known universe". The rest they simply "made up" in a purely ad hoc manner, most recently their dark energy entity that nobody had ever heard of, one magic day suddenly makes up 75% of the universe. They're making this up as they go.

Academia doesn't work that way. They aren't a coherent group with an orthodoxy. If you find enough consistent evidence to back up a claim for a new theory, your name is basically guaranteed to go down in history as a pioneer. For instance, Charles Darwin.

Charles Darwin talked about things that exist on Earth. Where might I go to get inflation to put it under a microscope?

Creation myths are just symbolic stories, narratives designed to explain how things are without any evidence to support them. The Big Bang is not a story. It is a scientific theory with evidence to support it.

It's still a "creation myth" that makes them feel good. It gives them comfort to think they know *WHEN* all matter came to exist, down to the last 100,000k years or so. Great. Were they there? Did they see the inflation genie do all this?

The assertion that they had to be there to know how it happened is insane troll logic. How do investigators solve murders? Are they actually present at every murder, or do they see the aftermath and come to a conclusion from analyzing the data around them? Is a murder case also a "myth"?

Ya, but when you claim the murderer was an invisible ghost, I think it becomes "fantasy", not CSI "physics".

 

[Michael Mozina]

So plate tectonics is also merely pseudo-religion since it cannot be shown to occur in a laboratory experiment? Those geologists are just pushing their religion!!!11!1

Oh no, those those occur *HERE ON EARTH* and since I live in California I've personally experienced many land shift.

 

[rwguinn]

This could have been such an interesting discussion...

 

[Michael Mozina]

So plate tectonics is also merely pseudo-religion since it cannot be shown to occur in a laboratory experiment? Those geologists are just pushing their religion!!!11!1

ETA: Applying Michael Mozina's standards, here are other "religions" posing as "science" because they cannot be replicated directly in the lab...

Weather & climate science
Comparative planetology
Solar physics
All forms of celestial mechanics

... anyone got any others? See how much fun semantic word games can be?

You sort of missed a few issues there didn't you? Each of those branches of science can and might directly effect me personally on Earth here today. When might the angry inflation entity have any direct tangible effect on me today?

 

[Michael Mozina]

This could have been such an interesting discussion...

You mean if you met no opposition to calling those who "lack belief" in mainstream theory "crackpots"? Would that have actually been 'interesting'?

 

[MattusMaximus]

Oh no, those those occur *HERE ON EARTH* and since I live in California I've personally experienced many land shift.

I think meant to say that you are an unthinking robot going along with the dogmatic religious belief called plate tectonics. Plate tectonics cannot be shown in lab experiments, therefore it isn't science, it's religion...

... because Michael Mozina said so!

 

[MattusMaximus]

You sort of missed a few issues there didn't you? Each of those branches of science can and might directly effect me personally on Earth here today. When might the angry inflation entity have any direct tangible effect on me today?

But your argument was that inflation wasn't science because it couldn't be shown in the lab. Neither can plate tectonics or any of the stuff I mentioned in that list, therefore - by your own argument - those things are not science, they are religion.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I think meant to say that you are an unthinking robot going along with the dogmatic religious belief called plate tectonics. Plate tectonics cannot be shown in lab experiments, therefore it isn't science, it's religion...

... because Michael Mozina said so!

Earthquakes affect real people here on Earth. When was the last time inflation made the Earth move (or anything move) *OUTSIDE* of your creation mythos?

 

[Michael Mozina]

But your argument was that inflation wasn't science because it couldn't be shown in the lab. Neither can plate tectonics or any of the stuff I mentioned in that list, therefore - by your own argument - those things are not science, they are religion.

Did you miss my whole "Tangible physics", vs. "point at the sky and make up a creation mythos physics"?

 

[Perpetual Student]

This could have been such an interesting discussion...

Yes, I had hoped for a different kind of discussion, but the thread has been hijacked -- as I had feared it might be.

 

[Arthur Mann]

Combine that with a simple understanding that makes sense to them, and there's your recipe.

Yeah, I think this is what happened in the case of "big bang", a belgian priest invented this "let there be light" story, and many scientists were fooled into thinking it made sense.

The same thing probably happened with "black hole", it's an absurd and unscientific notion on its face, yet it has gained wide support among the crackpots.

A similar pattern is seen in the "dark matter" philosophy. This philosophy states that most of the matter in the universe is unobservable. Clearly crackpottery, and yet it remains the consensus view. Combined with "dark energy", these crackpots suggest that about 80% of the universe is utterly unobservable, clearly an untenable position, yet this remains the consensus view among both established, paid researchers and the population as a whole.

 

[Skwinty]

Earthquakes affect real people here on Earth. When was the last time inflation made the Earth move (or anything move) *OUTSIDE* of your creation mythos?

The problem is that not everything is actually here on earth.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Yes, I had hoped for a different kind of discussion, but the thread has been hijacked -- as I had feared it might be.

Sorry if I contributed to that, PS. I just want the lurkers to see how silly the arguments of Michael Mozina really can be.

[/derail]

 

[Michael Mozina]

The problem is that not everything is actually here on earth.

Interested in buying another invisible sky god mythos by any chance?

 

[MattusMaximus]

The problem is that not everything is actually here on earth.

Yeah, like solar physics and most celestial mechanics doesn't take place on the Earth, and neither of those can be shown in the lab; therefore they aren't science, according to Michael Mozina, so they must be religions!