Hard vs Soft Martial Arts

[Arthur Mann]

Good story. Yeah, people who are attracted to Aikido generally fail to realize that Uesheba was basically a Japanese version of a flower child cultist, stopping short of taking on a name like "Moonbeam".

I've trained aikido for many decades, I'm uninterested in the history and philosophy of it.

Uesheba took the same techniques and filtered them through a sieve of pacifist philosophy and other religious nonsense.

This might explain why it's so easy to subdue with aikido.

Kano's method was akin to sharpening a sword with a rock whereas Uesheba's approach was more like beating the sword against the rock until it was blunt and useless.

I'm not sure how appropriate this metaphor is. Aikido strikes are all based on sword strikes, but...striking is for suckers. Aikido is a fine discipline if you want learn to subdue people without hurting them. Of course if you're a sadist, once you've have somebody subdued you can do whatever you like to them, so as a fighting style subdual seems to be the optimal strategy. It requires less force than lethal combat, generally, and afford the opportunity of unchallenged lethal force.

 

[Arthur Mann]

And "Judo" Gene Lebell literally made him crap his pants.

I'd like to see video of that. Or is it just a rumor?

[ETA -

I was just thinking about this, and it occurred to me, as a practitioner of aikido I've choked out guys who could have literally torn me limb from limb, some real gorillas I would never get in a boxing match with, and I'm as big as Seagal. Ironic that Seagal could have been choked out by a judo practitioner. Is choking common in judo?

]

 

[Phrost]

This might explain why it's so easy to subdue with aikido.

Subdue who? A compliant training partner? A "sparring" partner who's being unconsciously compliant, participating in a manner that's basically the same as moving a ouija board?

How many Judo black belts have you earnestly sparred with? How many Wrestlers? Hell, how many kickboxers? Have you ever actually been in a fight with a skilled opponent where you had to rely on your own skills?

The vast bulk of Aikido is trained in an unrealistic manner, hence why it's a substandard style of Martial Arts. In fact, it barely qualifies as a Martial Art in that it is entirely against Martialism.

 

[MattusMaximus]

I'm not sure how appropriate this metaphor is. Aikido strikes are all based on sword strikes, but...striking is for suckers. Aikido is a fine discipline if you want learn to subdue people without hurting them. Of course if you're a sadist, once you've have somebody subdued you can do whatever you like to them, so as a fighting style subdual seems to be the optimal strategy. It requires less force than lethal combat, generally, and afford the opportunity of unchallenged lethal force.

As both an aikido practitioner and a former karate/TKD man (and someone who has trained continuously for 20+ years), I have to disagree with you on this point. There are a lot of strikes which can be incorporated into aikido training which do not have a basis in sword technique. I'm not saying that many of the sword-origin strikes are bad, but I do think to limit your training to only those techniques is kind of stupid.

Personally, I think that many an aikido practitioner can learn a thing or two from getting some basic boxing/kickboxing training and spending some time hitting a heavy-bag. You have to train sometimes as if your opponent is not going to take the proper ukemi to protect themselves, because in real life the thug on the street who attacks you won't know one damn thing about ukemi. And in that situation, you had better known damn well how to hit them, and hit them hard in the right spot so as to bring the confrontation to a halt quickly. I have found myself in situations where my application of a good, solid, non-sword like atemi-waza ended the situation rather abruptly. On the other hand, I once had to - as you say - subdue someone with a rather unpleasant joint lock. It all depends upon the scenario.

In addition, I also think that many aikido practitioners could benefit from getting some basic ground training via judo or BJJ. I have some of these basic skills that I've learned from some very nice BJJ guys who train in my dojo. It's more than reasonable to assume that you won't always end up on your feet; hell, much of aikido training is protecting yourself when you fall down, so knowing how to recover or deal with someone who jumps on you while you're on the ground isn't a bad idea.

I understand that you are defending aikido technique here, and I applaud that (so long as it isn't the foo-foo "spiritual energy" crap too many in aikido practice). But in your desire to defend your art, please also have the humility to understand its limitations as well. A good martial artist knows both, I think.

 

[MattusMaximus]

Is choking common in judo?

Yes, it is a perfectly valid training method in judo. Some of the best advice I've learned on chokes have come from judo guys.

 

[Bikewer]

Judo always differentiated between chokes (directed at the windpipe/larynx) and strangles (directed at the blood supply to the brain).
Chokes are immediately painful, and can be very dangerous as the larynx can easily be collapsed.
Strangles are pretty safe if applied until the individual looses consciousness and no more.

We utilize this technique in police work, calling it rather more euphemistically a "vascular neck clamp". It's quite effective, and about the only way to take out a PCP-fueled individual without severely damaging him.

One characteristic of a good strangle is that the individual may think he is fighting back for all he's worth... But in fact he's doing little or nothing.

 

[Arthur Mann]

Yes, it is a perfectly valid training method in judo. Some of the best advice I've learned on chokes have come from judo guys.

I'll keep that in mind if I ever tangle with anyone I know is trained in judo. I've never engaged anyone with a choke who was trying to do the same thing, typically I use it on strikers.

 

[Arthur Mann]

It's quite effective, and about the only way to take out a PCP-fueled individual without severely damaging him.

A better strategy would be to just avoid people on PCP.

 

[Garrette]

Subdue who? A compliant training partner? A "sparring" partner who's being unconsciously compliant, participating in a manner that's basically the same as moving a ouija board?

I'm far from a martial arts expert, but I have--with the help of others--adapted both Aikido and Jiujitsu for use in healthcare security settings.

Non-violent subduals are quite possible when the person you're dealing with is not really out to harm anyone--for instance some drunks in the ER or some attention-seeking psychiatric patients along with others.

That said, whenever there was any doubt at all, the preferred method was dogpile, and when I trained people how to do it I always emphasized that I was not training them how to win a real fight. In fact, I told them that if they relied on what I taught them in a real fight they would likely get their asses kicked even if their opponent was untrained.

Disclaimer: This makes it sound as if I and my security officers frequently intervened physically. That isn't the case, but over many years in many settings, it happened often enough to learn it was valuable.

 

[Arthur Mann]

which can be incorporated into aikido training

These techniques that "can be incoporated into" aikido are not "aikido proper", unless I'm too much mistaken. I have always been taught that aikido strikes are all based on sword strikes, and those are the only strikes I've ever been taught.

but I do think to limit your training to only those techniques is kind of stupid.

I think striking in general is stupid, unless you're using a weapon. The human hand is a fine instrument, not a club, the feet less so but still not clubs. To really be effective with strikes you need extreme precision in most cases, or extreme speed, not everyone has that.

Personally, I think that many an aikido practitioner can learn a thing or two from getting some basic boxing/kickboxing training and spending some time hitting a heavy-bag.

It's definitely useful to train with strikers if you want to get good at subduing them.

And in that situation, you had better known damn well how to hit them, and hit them hard in the right spot so as to bring the confrontation to a halt quickly.

This is one option when somebody has the drop on you, hit them hard, hit them fast. But of course if they have the drop on you they have the advantage. Most armed attackers aren't prepared to grapple, so take away their advantage.

I have found myself in situations where my application of a good, solid, non-sword like atemi-waza ended the situation rather abruptly.

I'm more worried about hurting people than keeping myself safe, and as big and strong as I am, hurting people isn't difficult.

I understand that you are defending aikido technique here, and I applaud that (so long as it isn't the foo-foo "spiritual energy" crap too many in aikido practice).

I'm not really defending my training, it's just my personal choice to subdue instead of fighting. Some people aren't capable of some of the brute-force subdual I can engage, some people can't strike effectively and never will, nobody can really tell you how you should train if you are training to your own goals.

Another big part of the reason I don't strike is because I broke my hand hitting people many years ago, before I had any kind of training.

 

[Baylor]

I'm far from a martial arts expert, but I have--with the help of others--adapted both Aikido and Jiujitsu for use in healthcare security settings.

About the only effective move I found in Aikido was the wrist locks. And that would only be effective if the belligerent was smaller and less skilled than me. And I'd only choose that if punching him in the face or an O-soto-Gari would be too violent. Not a situation I find myself in a lot.

 

[Arthur Mann]

About the only effective move I found in Aikido was the wrist locks.

My experience is much different than yours.

 

[Garrette]

About the only effective move I found in Aikido was the wrist locks. And that would only be effective if the belligerent was smaller and less skilled than me. And I'd only choose that if punching him in the face or an O-soto-Gari would be too violent. Not a situation I find myself in a lot.

Not my experience at all (that it only works if the belligerent is smaller). I grant that it matters if the person is more skilled, and I agree that wrist locks are the most effective. I have, however, quite often used wrist locks on larger, stronger people.

[ETA: I forgot about defensive moves which were the most common of all. Simple instruction in how to stand when speaking with someone who is physically threatening and then how to step back out of the way of a swing along with avoiding/and redirecting a strike proved particularly invaluable]

Remember the environment that I described, though. Healthcare settings in which the belligerent's intent is usually not really to give someone a beat down. It is either a confused attempt to avoid treatment (I have dealt with hundreds of psychiatric patients) or to escape (this includes drunks, overdoses, etc.).

I have on at least one occasion successfully applied an arm bar, but I grant that was rare.

As an aside which I think is somewhat related, I found the following to be consistently true across the literally dozens of hospitals with which I worked including the three standard hospitals (with psychiatric wards) for which I was security director and two psychiatric hospitals for which I was security/safety director:

The security staff is the more successful at talking someone down than are the medical and psychiatric staff, frequently avoiding physical intervention even when other staff are "ordering" us to strap someone down. I speculate it's because we had a dog in the fight and so were more motivated to resolve incidents verbally.

 

[Bikewer]

"A better strategy would be to just avoid people on PCP. " Sage advice, but not an option for those of us in law enforcement.

Mercifully, the PCP craze seems to have abated some years ago locally; though meth use is on the rise.

 

[Someclevernick]

I understand that you are defending aikido technique here, and I applaud that (so long as it isn't the foo-foo "spiritual energy" crap too many in aikido practice). But in your desire to defend your art, please also have the humility to understand its limitations as well. A good martial artist knows both, I think.[/QUOTE]

Hello. As an sceptic i think that energy flow thew body is quite extraodinary claim and so are so called "spiritual powers". Butt what then ueshibas demonstrations are? Totaly ********?

Are all those performings possible only becouse students respect to sensei?

Just asking becouse i am intrested of this kind of things and i believe that this forum can give some new thougts to me.

P.S: English is my seond language, so if you see any spell errors you can ingore them or correct me(would be nice to learn to write in english)

 

[Someclevernick]

And i know that "seond" doesen`t mean anything, so you dont`t need to correct that one

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Hello. As an sceptic i think that energy flow thew body is quite extraodinary claim and so are so called "spiritual powers". Butt what then ueshibas demonstrations are? Totaly ********?

Are all those performings possible only becouse students respect to sensei?

Just asking becouse i am intrested of this kind of things and i believe that this forum can give some new thougts to me.

P.S: English is my seond language, so if you see any spell errors you can ingore them or correct me(would be nice to learn to write in english)

You're asking if the Sensei makes the throws possible because his students respect him?

Pretty much, yes. It's largely a power of suggestion thing.

 

[Bikewer]

This is pretty much what goes on in the "one touch knockout" thing promoted by Dillman and others. The students dutifully fall over when poked in the appropriate "pressure point" by the master, but uninvolved reporters (such as happened during one of these sessions) are quite unaffected.
When Dillman started promoting his "system" some years back, I proposed a protocol for testing his claims to one of the major martial arts magazines.
No one seemed interested.....

 

[Arthur Mann]

I have, however, quite often used wrist locks on larger, stronger people.

Then you must have caught them off guard. You can't really employ some moves on an actively resisting target if they're stronger than you, you have to lay it on them before they realize what you're doing.

 

[Arthur Mann]

Sage advice, but not an option for those of us in law enforcement.

Yeah, it is an option, nobody forces you to do what you do, and if you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail.

though meth use is on the rise.

what's meth