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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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For Shutlt: There was always the *smoking gun, or *spontaneous* admission of guilt.

And Mary, while you believe in this case, not having being read your rights, or being provided with a lwayer, smacks of getting off on technicalities, rather than having DONE it. Right?
 
No, I didn't know that, so thanks. I believe in this case, the reason Amanda's statements were ruled inadmissible is because they were obtained from a suspect who had not been read her rights or provided with a lawyer.
I've never seen a proper, decently source, explanation of what the rights and rules are around the whole witness/suspect thing in Italy - people assert stuff, but that's not the same. They are clearly very different from the UK/US. I don't recall the Supreme Court saying anything about her rights being read or not being read was an issue... what is your source for this?
 
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Massei's first-rate "reasoning" regarding the ground underneath Filomena's window is on pp50-51 of the translated report. Firstly, it's evident that the court seems to rely (somewhat bizarrely) upon the testimony of Filomena herself, and her boyfriend Marco on the issue of the ground conditions. Furthermore, the Massei report only makes reference to the verbal/written testimony of forensic officer Gioia Brocci (and her assistant) regarding the condition of the wall. There is no discussion whatsoever of any photographs that might have been produced in court to show, close-up, the exact condition of the ground and the wall on 2-3 November. There's no apparent discussion of recorded meteorological conditions in Perugia in the last week of October and 1st November. Given that a major plank of the prosecution's case was that the break-in was staged, they (and the police) appear to have fallen far short in attempting to demonstrate that any assailant would have had to leave marks in the ground and upon the wall. And given that the prosecution has the burden of proof, I'd say that they failed to offer sufficient proof that the break-in was staged, in regard to the condition of the ground and the wall.

Secondly, Massei draws these awesome conclusions about the glass from the window (p51):

"The climber, in leaning his hands and then his feet or knees on the windowsill, would have caused at least some piece of glass to fall, or at least would have been obliged to shift some pieces of glass in order to avoid being wounded by them. Instead, no piece of glass was found under the window, and no sign of any wound was seen on the pieces of glass found in Romanelli's room."

In other words Massei seems supremely confident that anyone breaking in would have (not could have) caused some glass to fall to the outside - for logic that he doesn't care to elaborate upon. Massei also seems very confident that had the assailant instead clambered over the broken glass, he would necessarily have been injured in the process. He appears to be unfamiliar with the concept of gloves and a heavy coat.

Here's his second piece of stellar reasoning regarding the lack of glass on the ground below the window (p51):

"It can moreover be observed that the presence of many pieces of glass on the outside part of the windowsill increases the probability of finding some small pieces of glass on the ground underneath, since there seems to be no reason that so many pieces of glass would all stop just at the edge of the windowsill without any of them flying beyond the edge and falling down to the garden below."

So here, Massei is saying in his inimitable style that there's "no reason" why there should be pieces of glass on the outer windowsill, yet none on the ground. He seems to believe that the glass found on the sill must have been flying backwards with a significant velocity, from his use of the phrase "...would all stop....without flying beyond the edge". In reality, of course, the strong likelihood is that the pieces of glass on the sill had simply fallen vertically down from the pane follwing the impact of the rock, and had merely toppled over upon landing on the sill, to rest in the position on the sill in which they were found. In other words, these pieces of glass were never "flying" backwards to any extent whatsoever.

The police not finding glass under the window really doesn't mean much to me. Heck, these are the same people who couldn't find Amanda's grey sweatshirt which was located on her bed, on top of a pile of clothes. I think they only "found" what they wanted to find.
 
It's a puzzle. Why have Amanda and Raffaele not ever acknowledged that Rudi was the lone killer. Or just the killer. When Raffaele uttered the single word Justice, why didn't he say: The killer is already convicted. It was Rudi, we had nothing to do with it. Strange, that.

My family has been in difficulty with the law a couple of times for defending ourselves against their excessive use of force; their use of force for 'crimes' that didn't happen. Never-the-less, the charges of 4 and 7 years jail time were real.

This is the point: The lawers tell you what to say or not say in NO uncertain terms. The lawyers tell you not to think or speak for yourself. The lawyers want to fully control the communication.

No, it is NOT strange, not strange at all.
 
Well, Justinian, Did they tell Amanda to discuss her bunny vibrator? Or, to get snarky in Court? Did she follow instructions at all? In any event, Amanda blamed Patrick? Why have neither Amanda or Raff, blamed Rudi, even when the Court found him guilty?
 
I'm off to bed. I look forward to responses as to why Amanda and Raff haven't reiterated that Rudi has been convicted of the murder, whilst he has accused THEM?
 
Raffaele may have said something to that effect

But now they know he was convicted. They didn't have to be there.

capealadin,

IIRC, Raffaele said that he hoped the true killer would confess (sorry, don't have a citation handy). I imagine that they do not see it as their place to comment on what transpires between Rudy and the legal system.
 
Bizzare, indeed

Massei's first-rate "reasoning" regarding the ground underneath Filomena's window is on pp50-51 of the translated report. Firstly, it's evident that the court seems to rely (somewhat bizarrely) upon the testimony of Filomena herself, and her boyfriend Marco on the issue of the ground conditions.

Oh.... most certainly

That is, as your fact based scientific *opinion* points out to us, indeed, very 'bizzare'.

Here, as you point out, the learned and respected Jurist in his comprehensive 427 page summary of his year long exposure to the evidence, as well as the best available legal talent's arguments against the evidence, relies on the testimony not only of a person who lived in that residence, but *the* very person who lived in *the* room which contains the here overly analyzed window and terrain below.

Yes, of course it would be much more reasonable and much less bizzare to ask Mark Waterbury or Bruce Fisher for another of their (absentee) fact based scientific *unbiased* opinions and quote that for us as a supplement to your above 'argument':rolleyes:

After all, these inordinately and unjustly overly heralded and acclaimed 'experts' on so many facets of the case, must certainly have sometime in their illustrious careers gotten within a few thousand miles of that window and terrain...did they not ???

Your inclusion as opening terminology ( and adorned with apostrophes); 'first rate reasoning' is easily recognized as contributing nothing to the argument, but rather is simply another of your oft included customary thinly veiled derision of opponents; in this instance being the Honorable Judge Massei.
 
Dr. Waterbury's credentials

I'm still waiting for Halides to tell me more about his fondness for "Mark Waterbury." (Is he an amateur blogger/ unemployed materials scientist/ wannbe true crime writer?)

treehorn,

From sciencespheres.com, "some credentials, so you'll know that I know what I'm talking about. I've got 4 science and engineering degrees, including a Ph.D. in materials science and 20 years of experience. I've been a scientist for the Air Force, an engineer for a major engineering firm, and CTO for two companies. I've developed a number of measurement techniques, hold several patents, and have worked on a wide range of scientific projects. I've performed technology reviews for some of the largest companies in the world, sorting through claims of scientists and engineers and communicating the results to lay persons. I've worked in the brand integrity field, what is commonly called, "anti-counterfeiting" for several years. I've recently started my own firm, Perception Development Co., (www.percdev.com) and am now providing consulting services and developing a variety of new products and technologies."

You criticized Dr. Waterbury for writing a book, but you did not do the same for Ms. Nadeau. Hmm....
 
The only way the defense could prove it would be to go back in time and test the soil the night of Nov 1. What else would satisfy you? On the other hand, it would have been just swell if the police had a video of one of the Barney Fife's of the force, I mean a lighter weight fellow, lightly stepping below the window, proving a footprint must be made, and the shoe soiled. Another great thing would be a video of an taller agile police person making an at least half sincere attempt to try to climb in the window using various strategies. Then we could see for ourselves how unlikely success would be.

As things stand we have only the impression left in the memories of a couple of people on the police payroll whose career success may well depend on the quality of their reflections. It's enough for you, and obviously for many others. It is not proof.

You cannot assume the soil was dry, shoe wouldn't carry it, there were unseen and concealed footprints, as long as you don't have a singl shard of evidence to substantiate it, and only testimonies of the opposite.
And you have also common experience against you.

You can't neither decide yourself that offficers are on payrolls and their career would depend on satysfying some particular unknown request and thjat they are criminals in a conspiracy, all this without a shard of element to support it.

This position would be the weakest in a trial. This point of evidence exists. And it is only one of many steps in a series, accumulated i a heap pointing in the same conclusion of a staged burglary.

If you had a video and you believe in a conspiracy, the video could be a bogus and part of a conspiracy. If you want somebody to attempt the climbing, the defence could have had their man do it. If theyu want to show "dry" soil not caried away, they could walk around at 22:00 and show their shoes. A number of things can be done to substantiate things.
But also the sheer number of burglaries that judes had already seen matters.
 
admirable restraint

I'm off to bed. I look forward to responses as to why Amanda and Raff haven't reiterated that Rudi has been convicted of the murder, whilst he has accused THEM?

Perhaps it is because Rudy told multiple versions of what happened, or because for him to have named them is blatantly self-serving. I think that Amanda and Raffaele are showing admirable restraint in not saying anything.
 
expert witnesses

Is this another one of Frank S' facts as opposed to opinions ?
[Not that I'm overly concerned with the actual topic at hand]

I'm still not quite clear on the distinction [which you made earlier]

platonov,

The distinction I drew earlier was between using Frank as a source for what happened at the trial and using him as an expert witness on forensics. I have often quoted his reporting, but I have never offered him as an expert witness on the knife wounds, DNA profiling, or other such matters.

You also alluded to the Johnson/Hampikian letter in a recent comment, but I was not sure what your question or point was. I cannot add anything to what I have already said about who might or might not be called as a witness. Was that your question, or did you have another?
 
Well, Justinian, Did they tell Amanda to discuss her bunny vibrator? Or, to get snarky in Court? Did she follow instructions at all? In any event, Amanda blamed Patrick? Why have neither Amanda or Raff, blamed Rudi, even when the Court found him guilty?

I don't know exactly, but AK and RS were without lawyers before they were in jail and with them after they were in jail.

I'm off to bed. I look forward to responses as to why Amanda and Raff haven't reiterated that Rudi has been convicted of the murder, whilst he has accused THEM?

He said he saw a male figure in the dark. Rudy's lawyer probably told him to say that. (My lawyers would have told me to say something like that.)

Also, any statement that "Rudy did it" would have placed AK or RS them at the scene of the crime when the murder took place. It is because they are innocent that they didn't and couldn't accuse Rudy.
 
No, I don't consider it consistent because the (first) 13 points I made remain still to me. (I have also another 3 or 4 points in addition).

Hello, Machiavelli! I believe I answered all of your points. If you think I was wrong somewhere, feel free to point it out. E.g. what is wrong with the window measurements and possible ways to open it end enter?
I assumed you quietly accepted most of my points so far. If it's not the fact, I'd love to see where I'm wrong.


The question of incredulty and inconsistency i see it as total difference. I don't see any distinct definition by which you should dismiss my "incredulty" and not consider thay depend from aspects of reality that lack consistency.

By consistent I meant simply that every piece of evidence is taken into account by my hypothetical scenario, nothing is left out that would logically contradict it. I also think that every aspect of my hypothesis is probable, but probability is more subjective, while logical consistency is objective.

In guilt theories OTOH there are inconsistencies, like failure to incorporate the objective evidence of Meredith's phone activity.


I don't see in fact any reason why I should credulous or dupe, open to accept any sequence of improbable scenarios and do as if this belief was perfectly normal. It is not normal to believe an undeterminate series of unrealisic events.
What you said above is in fact beautiful, as it exactly explains my problem with the guilt theory. Other problem is that no one so far presented a comprehensive series of events, however unrealistic they may be, without leaving out some of the evidence.

As to my sequence of entering the window, I don't think any element of it is improbable on itself. We have arrived at a conclusion that climbing that wall is perfectly feasible, opening the window is easy, there are powdery traces that although not tested very well fit the scenario of climbing that wall.
Others pointed out traces on the wall like scuff marks and missing nails that were overlooked by ILE, but very well could be connected with the break in.


Those observations that might be interpreted differently - like for example the white crumble of varnishing in place of whitewash - are also independant from each other.
I'm not sure what you mean by it.


I have intrinsic reasons for each point, reasons that do not depend from my idea that the defendants are guilty (albeit I have this idea also independently from the issue of Filomena's window). I take in account that some of these conclusions regarding a single piece could have a more or less reasonable chance to be a wrong assessment. But I am not ready to consider as reasonable that all conclusions are wrong on all elements.
Some of your elements constitute necessary conditions. It's enough that the powdery white tracks come from the external wall, and the break in is proven to be real. So it's sufficient for you to be wrong on that one element.

It is the accumulation of elements that creates a critical mass. And reasonable doubt on proving single parts of the scenario - like the staged break in - are not even needed.
Yes, but it works the other way, too. There are elements forming "critical mass" and they indicate miscarriage of justice.

But we can also point out the elements in favor of the real break in.
1. Distribution of glass only possible when the rock came from the outside.
2. Rock position indicate throwing from the outside.
3. Traces indicating someone climbed the wall and through the window.
4. Evidence that someone snagged the TV cable going under the window - presumably when stepping into the room.
5. Someone cleared parts of the window frame from shards, to access the latch.
6. The window is perfect target for a rock throw. It is possible one of the shutters were left open by Filomena, as she testified once.
7. The window is on the side of the building not illuminated be the street lights, it is hidden from sight by the trees.
etc. etc.
(Then come the points about other break-ins Rudy was connected with)

It's interesting how the real break in element influences that "critical mass", there's important difference here.
The real break-in is a sufficient condition for AK and RS innocence. If the break-in is real, there is no way you can incorporate AK and RS into the crime.

Some objections, moreover, are totally inconsistent in my view, like the idea that Filomena window could be a "logical" point of entry on the arguments you brought forward. Or that the sweater fell from the top of the paper bag. I don't see these arguments about the staged break in as disproven.

I see we have at least two points to discuss further, I will get back to them and I hope we will clarify them soon.

About inconsistencies, I have never seen and cannot imagine somebody trying to put together the inconsistencies I see in Amanda's declarations, for example.
That's interesting and I'd love to discuss that inconsistencies, too. For me her declarations are consistent with innocent person targeted by police.

I think all these claims about false memory and coercion fail to explain the actual facts and are inconsistent on so macroscopical and diffuse level that, to me, gullibility on these stuttering attempts goes beyond belief.
It would be great if you could list those macro inconsistencies. That's something I saw many colpevolisti were asked about repeatedly.


The lack of possible explanation for the luminol footprints is also devastating, as well as the lack of any reasonable explanation for the bra clasp, and the evidence of cleanup and alteration of the bathmat print, and the features of the bathmat print bring a further element against.
That's another topic we disagree on that we can revisit, too.
 
Perhaps it is because Rudy told multiple versions of what happened, or because for him to have named them is blatantly self-serving. I think that Amanda and Raffaele are showing admirable restraint in not saying anything.
I don't want to twist your words here, but I'm struck by the constant interviews, articles, statements etc... from her family and associated supporters. It rather undermines her admirable restraint that they have been responsible for keeping a constant stream of new stories going the whole time. I don't particularly blame them, they presumably believe it will help.

What is there for her to say that isn't being said over and over on her behalf?
 
You cannot assume the soil was dry, shoe wouldn't carry it, there were unseen and concealed footprints, as long as you don't have a singl shard of evidence to substantiate it, and only testimonies of the opposite.
And you have also common experience against you.

I cannot agree with that, as I pointed out earlier.
You saw in the climbing lawyer's photo, that his shoes are definitely not soiled.
You have no evidence (not even testimony) that the ground was wet on Nov 1 night.
Common experience suggests that stepping on dry fallen leaves and vegetation doesn't result in soiling your shoes.
 
Yes, of course, end of story

treehorn,

Frank Sfarzo was there, and he heard "Forte, Raffaele." End of story.

If the never in error in anything he has written and/or said about the case; the hearer and reporter extrordinaire, Frank Sfarzo, heard something different than someone else (who was also there)....of course; as you dogmatically declare...'end of story'.:covereyes

Additionally every courtroom picture that includes this impeccable and not to ever be questioned source that you here exalt as the concluding expert for us, shows Mr Sfarzo either next to, or in very close proximity to the admirably and respectfully attired Mellox extended Family.;)

This constant proximity of course is not to be in any way any indication for my here evidence based scientific readers of the underlying personal motivations for what Mr Sfarzo 'heard here', or for any of his other very voluminous, 'unbiased' reports, comments and opinions about what he hears, sees, or thinks.:rolleyes:
 
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I was doing a bit of thinking based on the LessWrong article linked to previously, and the demands that the burglary, knife etc... need to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Say you have a bunch of individual, independent claims, "the burglary was faked" for example, each of which, if true make the claim "Amanda and Raffaele committed the murder" true.

If the odds of each of the claims being true is 0.3333... I think the odds of "Amanda and Raffaele committed the murder" being true is greater than .95 if you have 7.4 such sub claims. If the odds of the sub claims being true is 0.5, then you need 4.32 subclaims.

Clearly this is simplistic and the defense has similar claims, like the alibi, which would need to be factored in, and in any case there are other problems like what odds to assign, what defense/prosecution claims to include and exclude..... My purpose in posting was to underline the fact that the individual elements of the case, whether supporting the defense or the prosecution, don't even have to be better than 50% probable to provide support for a case.
 
There was discussion yesterday about Guede's innocence. I couldn't find any mention of Guede's fingerprints in the Massei report yesterday, but I did find this with a search of 'handprint' today.

From pgs 43 and 44 of the Massei translation:

Multiple elements collected and analysed by the Scientific Police give further secure indications that Rudy was present in the house at via della Pergola 7, and in Meredith'ʹs room, when Meredith was killed.

The handprint found on a pillow in the room, on which the lifeless corpse of Meredith was found placed, turned out to have been made by Rudy Guede; the vaginal swab of the victim contained the DNA of the victim and of Rudy Guede; the DNA of Rudy Guede was [30] also found on the cuff of Meredith'ʹs sweatshirt found in her room, and on a strap of the bra that she was wearing, found cut off and stained with blood; the DNA of Rudy Guede was also found on Meredith'ʹs purse, which was also in the room that she occupied. Further biological traces of Rudy Guede were found on the toilet paper taken from the toilet of the larger bathroom. The faeces present in the toilet of that bathroom did not, however, yield any results, and Dr Stefanoni, the biologist of the Scientific Police, explained that the presence of numerous bacteria easily destroys what DNA might be found in faeces. Finally, in the corridor leading to the exit from the house coming from Meredith'ʹs room were found prints from a shoe stained with the blood of the victim. At first, these prints were held to be compatible with the shoes of Raffaele Sollecito. Later tests (as we will see subsequently) finally ruled out this compatibility, showing that they were in fact actually from shoes of the same brand, type and size as a pair of shoes that might have been contained in a shoebox found in the home of Rudy Guede in via del​

There is quite a bit of evidence that links Guede to the crime scene.
 
They are not. The bottom of his shoe looks to me like a white powder similar to that found inside the room that was broken into. Look at the wallwithnail high resolution pic at the bottom of his foot.

Did the defense provided, 'staged' photo you proclaim as evidentiary and irrefutable per chance include a visible time and date and recent meteorological conditions ??

Was the ground moisture/mud below from recent rain or even from morning dew still present ?

Was the grass below 'undisturbed' as cited previously being significant?

Rose, cognizant of your elaborate accumulation of some very accurate facts of the case, forgive the possible parsing/nitpicking of this query.
It is something that I try to avoid, but just seems customary, appropriate and endlessly utilized here to argue this type of detail.:(
 
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