Iran and the Nazis

Here's a nice little rebuttal to the legitimacy of the term "Islamofascism":

The term, "Islamofascism" has been criticized by some scholars[11] and journalists. Historian Niall Ferguson[12] and international relations scholar Angelo Codevilla consider it historically inaccurate and simplistic.[13] Author Richard Alan Nelson criticized the term as being generally used as a pejorative or for propaganda[14][15] purposes. Tony Judt argued in a September 2006 article in the London Review of Books that use of the term was intended to reduce the War on Terror to "a familiar juxtaposition that eliminates exotic complexity and confusion", criticising authors who use the term Islamo-fascism and present themselves as experts despite not having previous expertise about Islam.[16]

Critics such as former National Review columnist Joseph Sobran, and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman argue that "Islamofascism is nothing but an empty propaganda term." used by proponents of the "War on Terror".[14][17][18] Security expert Daniel Benjamin, political scientist Norman Finkelstein and The American Conservative columnist Daniel Larison, highlight the claim that, despite its use as a piece of propaganda, the term is inherently meaningless, since as Benjamin notes, "there is no sense in which jihadists embrace fascist ideology as it was developed by Mussolini or anyone else who was associated with the term."[19][20]

Cultural historian Richard Webster has argued that grouping many different political ideologies, terrorist and insurgent groups, governments, and religious sects into one single idea of "Islamofascism" may lead to an oversimplification of the phenomenon of terrorism.[21] In a similar vein the left-wing National Security Network argues that the term dangerously obscures important distinctions and differences between groups of Islamic extremists while alienating moderate voices in the Muslim world because it "creates the perception that the United States is fighting a religious war against Islam."[22] Daniel Larison attributes proponent Hitchen's support of the phrase to his anti-religious stance.[23] Conservative British historian Niall Ferguson points out that this political use of what he calls a "completely misleading concept," is "just a way of making us feel that we're the 'greatest generation' fighting another World War."[12] Reza Aslan claims the term "falls flat" when describing groups like al-Qaeda, noting that they are anti-nationalist while fascism is ultra-nationalist.[24]

Commenting on the claimed incongruity between the "Muslim World" and "industrial state fascism," US journalist Eric Margolis claims that ironically the most totalitarian Islamic regimes, "in fact, are America's allies."[25]
The public use of the term has also elicited a critical response from various Muslim groups. In the aftermath of the 2006 transatlantic aircraft plot, George W. Bush described his policies as a battle against "Islamic fascists... [who] will use any means to destroy those of us who love freedom". The Council on American-Islamic Relations wrote to him to complain, saying that the use of the term "feeds the perception that the war on terror is actually a war on Islam".[19] Ingrid Mattson of the Islamic Society of North America also complained about this speech, claiming that it added to a misunderstanding of Islam. Mattson did acknowledge, however, that some terrorist groups also misuse "Islamic concepts and terms to justify their violence."[26]

The controversy surrounding this neologism is not only confined to the critical commentary of media figures, academics and Muslim groups. In 2007, the conservative writer and activist David Horowitz launched a series of lectures and protests on college campuses under the title of "Islamofascism Awareness Week.".[27] Several Muslims and non-Muslims on different college campuses aware of the event came out in opposition to it.[28][29][30][31][32][33] The Muslim Student Group at Penn State University, for instance, said it feared "that this Islamophobic program will have hazardous consequences on the Penn State community."[34] The Harvard Republicans have also gone on record to distance themselves from the event.[35]

In April 2008, Associated Press reported that US federal agencies, including the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security, were advised to stop using the term 'Islamo-fascism' in a fourteen-point memo issued by the Extremist Messaging Branch, a department of another federal body known as the National Counterterrorism Center. Aimed at improving the presentation of the "War on Terrorism" before Muslim audiences and the media, the memo states: "We are communicating with, not confronting, our audiences. Don't insult or confuse them with pejorative terms such as 'Islamo-fascism,' which are considered offensive by many Muslims." [36]

One of the world's leading authorities on fascism, Walter Laqueur, after reviewing this and related terms, concluded that "Islamic fascism, Islamophobia and antisemitism, each in its way, are imprecise terms we could well do without but it is doubtful whether they can be removed from our political lexicon.[37]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism#Origins_of_.22Islamofascism.22
 
nice. now how about you link me to a REAL historical website, one not driven by bigoted and delusional ideology.

I said I would check in every day or so. I did not say I would hover over you like a mother hen, acceding to your every petulant demand.

If you want me to teach you, then you will read what I tell you to read. And now, as a bonus assignment, you are required to read Cleon's link in addition to the one I provided. After you've finished, you will be given another assignment in due time.

How kin ya have any puddin if ya won't eat yer beets?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_bvT-DGcWw
 
Have you ever seen the cat-dog cartoon? The cat-dog was neither cat nor dog. It was both cat and dog. Cat on one end, dog on the other. It was appropriately labeled "cat-dog". It was not deemed necessary to re-define the meaning in "cat" and "dog". In fact, the amalgam of the two terms created an entirely new term: "cat-dog".

Actually, it's more like looking at Vulpes vulpes, and saying "Huh...it kind of has some catlike characteristics and behaviors, and also some doglike characteristics and behaviors, and also a bunch of characteristics and behaviors that aren't catlike or doglike...what shall we call it?" Calling that animal a "catdog" would be absolutely wrong, since that falsely implies it's a direct mixture of the two animals, and ignores the differences between that animals and both cats and dogs. Instead, you should call it by a third label entirely, "fox", to make it clear that it's not simply a straight mashup between the two animals, even though it shares similarities.

And so it is with IslamoFacism. It's an appropriate label for a strange mish-mash of ideologies which is not exactly Islamism or Fascism, but a mish-mash of both.

Except it's not, not really. At least in Iran's case (since we should at least nominally stay on topic here). Iran's ruling ideology, both today and in the past, has had similarities with fascism, but was not fascism, and had similarities with Islamism, but was not Islamism, and had a large component that had similarities to neither. As a result, labeling it "Islamofascism" doesn't help with either explaining or understanding what it really is, not any more than calling Vulpes vulpes a "catdog" will help you explain or understand what a fox really is.

This is not rocket science. And you are beginning to embarrass yourself.

I'm still not sure what your entire objection is. Yes, the Nazis were bad, but Iran not being "Nazi" does not suddenly imply that Iran then is good.

The Iranian regime, since a long time back, has been authoritarian, militaristic, xenophobic, and ethnosupremacist. It shared some similarities with Hitler's Nazism, as well as ur-fascism (in a fashion more akin to a Venn diagram than a direct correspondence), and currently is in bed with Neo-Nazis (though that's more a matter of a shared anti-Semitism than anything else). It also, currently, is heavily Islamic Fundamentalist in addition to that, albeit of a type different from other Islamic Fundamentalists (and Islamist Fundamentalists) like the Muslim Brotherhood and al-Qaeda, and is actually an ideological and religious enemy of the Islamists.

It's vile, oppressive, racist, anti-Semitic, probably imperialist, and blindered by religion in that way only brutal theocracies can be. But it's not Nazi, it's not fascist, and it's not Islamist.

Yes. What does that have to do with my use of Ahmadinejad as an example of an IslamoFascist? Does he not dance as his puppeteers command?

His puppeteer has been the same man since 1989. And yet his puppets have not all been like Ahmadinejad.

Do you know why he was elected, and why the Council of Guardians approved not just him, but all the candidates for the presidency?
 
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I said I would check in every day or so. I did not say I would hover over you like a mother hen, acceding to your every petulant demand.

If you want me to teach you, then you will read what I tell you to read. And now, as a bonus assignment, you are required to read Cleon's link in addition to the one I provided. After you've finished, you will be given another assignment in due time.

How kin ya have any puddin if ya won't eat yer beets?

I've seen this writing style before.
 
If you want me to teach you, then you will read what I tell you to read. And now, as a bonus assignment, you are required to read Cleon's link in addition to the one I provided.

You might want to read it yourself.

Especially where it explains, in exhaustive detail, the specifically Fars/Persian supremacist nature of Iranian national identity, and how it differed from both Hitler's Naziism and the idea of the ummah. Also pay attention to the section where it talks about how Reza Shah's embrace of Hitler had more to do with the 19th century concept of early European history (which, of course, pre-dated Hitler and his ideas), and how the postwar decolonialist delinking of "Aryanism" from the ethnolinguistic idea of "Indo-Europeans" caused Iranian Fars/Persian ethnosupremacy to decouple from Naziism and allowed it to not only survive but thrive in the post-Revolutionary Islamic Republic of Iran.
 
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And, as I pointed out, they're a wee bit hampered by the religious divides within Islam itself. Iran and Saudi Arabia have as much chance of uniting under a pan-Islamic umbrella as Utah and the Vatican have of uniting under a pan-Christian umbrella. The Iranians don't want to spread Islam if it means Sunni Islam (and, likewise, the Sunni Islamist groups don't want Islam to spread if it means Shia Islam).

They may align in the short-term to face a "greater enemy", but even that isn't always a given (as shown by the Saudi government preferring to side with the US against a nuclear Iran).


I think you're probably making the mistake of thinking I am talking about governments which I'm not, really. Particularly not in the case of Saudi Arabia - the house of Saud is about as religious as me.

It's the Islamist movements within those countries that are the danger. The governments let them have power to keep the populace happy, but the danger is it breeds the ideology and allows it to spread - Saudi's Wahhabism is being taught in over half of all Madrassahs in the world.

The Saudi government under the House of Saud would never willingly turn its back on the US and ally with Iran, but Islamic groups within Saudi Arabia - Islamic groups that are happy to deride the western capitalism of their rules - would eagerly do so.

And you're right, the moment Islam actually managed to conquer the world it would turn on itself and butcher itself - just like Christianity did. I have no doubt of that. The various fractured versions of Radical Islam could never rule side by side. But they'd happily put aside their differences until they'd exterminated everyone who was non-Muslim, and that's my concern.


That has more to do with anti-Semitism. That is, the common ground between Islamic Fundamentalism and Neo-Naziism is not based on a shared religious interpretation, but in common geopolitical and some very specific ideological goals.

I think you're missing my point. I wasn't saying Nazis and Islamic Radicals had a religious link. I was saying that the things that tied Radical Islam to Nazism were religious. Yes, it was Anti-Semitism and conquest of "everyone else" that brought them together. For the Nazis that was solely about eugenics, ethnic supremacy, and politics. But for the Islamic Radicals it's inherently and undeniably about religion.


Yes, I admit that the admixture of religion and state in most of these Muslim countries makes a direct separation of their various goals and ideologies difficult at best. But it should also be said that there's no one shariah, and that the combination of religion and politics in Iran is not the same as it is in Saudi Arabia, which is not the same as it is in Egypt. The contrasts are far more informative in this regard than the similarities.

Absolutely. But again, it's the groups within these countries that should be of concern, rather than the state itself. These groups don't necessarily have the same ideologies either, but ultimately the goals that are the same - the common ground where they can work together - is what should be of concern. It's not like any of this is new - otherwise disparate Islamist groups have a long, long history of joining together to address some central common goal.

Heck, that's exactly how Al Qaeda came into being.


And, as I also noted, specifically in Iran's case, there's a history to its authoritarian ethnosupremacist ideology that far predates the veliyat-e faqih of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and especially in the early years of Iranian nationalism (the mid 19th century to the early 20th century) it centered almost entirely on the Persian and Iranian identity and culture as distinct and superior to even their fellow Muslims who were not Fars/Persians. That ethnic identity, language, and history was far more important to the Iranians than their religious identity.

Sure. But that's not true any more. Seriously. Listen to what the Iranian leadership actually say to their people. The message is pretty consistent. Islam will rule the world. Islam will kill all the Jews. Islam will destroy America. Islam will conquer the west. Not Iran. Not the Fars/Persian people. Islam.


In other words, when Reza Khan embraced Hitler's Naziism, it was because he felt the Iranians were to the rest of the Middle East and West Asia (Muslim and non-Muslim alike) what the Germans were (or, rather, considered themselves to be) to the rest of Europe, not just because of a similar racist authoritarian militarism, but because of the shared "Aryan" self-identification. It wasn't "We're following you now!", but "Hey, we both came from the same place and are going down similar paths!"

Sure, I agree completely. And I think the same is true of all the other Islamic Fundamentalist groups that jumped on the Nazi bandwagon. Heck, the ideologies we're talking about date back to the 18th Century - none of this is remotely new. It certainly pre-dates Nazism.

The point, really, is that everyone pretty much agrees Nazism was evil. Everyone is quite comfortable denouncing it, and if necessary waging a horrendously costly war to try stamp it out.

I'm saying that an equally evil and unacceptable ideology has existed in the Islamic world for centuries, still exists today, and yet now in the west it's considered racist and unacceptable to even point it out, let alone suggest maybe we should do something about it.

If Nazism - which existed only in one country - was evil enough to fight the most atrocious war in human history - what is it acceptable to do to halt the spread of what is arguably a more evil ideology now growing in dozens and dozens of countries? Radical Islam hasn't exterminated the numbers that Nazi Germany has, sure, but it has certainly killed far, far, far more than Nazism had when we decided to put a stop to it.

Think of all the effort we put into trying to stop Communism - an ideology that was arguably evil in practise but is inherently self-defeating.

Meanwhile, not only have the west not done a single thing to combat Islamic Fundamentalism, but the leaders of the west are (publicly, at least) in total denial of its existence.
 
30 years after the Revolution, tens of thousands of Jews still live in Iran.

And the land does not have swastikas all over. That's some Nazi influence.

There's about 25,000 Jews in Iran, and at the end of WW2 there were about 15,000 Jews left in Germany (reduced from comparable populations with 1939 Germany and post Revolution Iran). Considering the Germans were actively rounding up Jews and exterminating them that's hardly an impressive Jewish population left in Iran. Particularly given Iran's population as a whole has more than doubled in that time.
 
Correct. It doesn't have anything to do with blaming a name on the Nazis. It has to do with the ongoing influence of Nazism among the Iranians, as evidenced by the Nazi studies and the Iranian president's holocaust denial and Jew-elimination advocacy. Not to mention the brutal demonstration suppression and naziesque kangaroo court system.

And of course the list of similarities between today's Iran and Nazi Germany could go on. However, there are still only 24 hours in a day.

Nice trying to change the topic, but what you actually said, and this is a direct quote from message #6: "Persia changed it's name to Iran after the Nazis took over Germany. "Iran" is Persian for "Aryan"."

Furthermore, you don't back down from that even after AntPogo pointed out that they've been calling themselves that for centuries. In message #23 you insist: "Right. The love affair between Iran and Nazi Germany had nothing to do with it.:rolleyes:"

Can you actually support that claim
Edited by kmortis: 
Removed personal attack
?

All wrong. I would have been right surprised it you hadn't used the same tired old tactic as always, resorting to hostile domineering rhetoric in a lame attempt to make it look like you've refuted my position (when in fact you've done nothing but ineffectively nitpicked on minor details), and are now triumphantly gloating over your ersatz "victory". You still doing that BS instead of actually refuting my position seems to be the real universal constant.

I was picking on a piece of BS evidence you presented to that claim. And it's clearly bogus. And, yeah, I get it, asking you to actually support your delusional propaganda claims is "hostile domineering". Only someone hostile would ask you to actually use proper logic or learn history, right? ;)
 
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Nice trying to change the topic, but what you actually said, and this is a direct quote from message #6: "Persia changed it's name to Iran after the Nazis took over Germany. "Iran" is Persian for "Aryan"."

Furthermore, you don't back down from that even after AntPogo pointed out that they've been calling themselves that for centuries. In message #23 you insist: "Right. The love affair between Iran and Nazi Germany had nothing to do with it.:rolleyes:"

yup. its pretty sad.
 
Nice trying to change the topic, but what you actually said, and this is a direct quote from message #6: "Persia changed it's name to Iran after the Nazis took over Germany. "Iran" is Persian for "Aryan".";)

And I went on to post a link and make some other statements. But you latched onto the first bone of contention you saw, and have continued to chew on it since.

You seem happy with the bone you've seized. You may continue to chew on it until doomsday. I don't care. I'm just annoyed by your domineering hostility. As you've pointed out, I haven't even tried to take your precious bone away, and yet you're still growling and snarling.

Furthermore, you don't back down from that even after AntPogo pointed out that they've been calling themselves that for centuries. In message #23 you insist: "Right. The love affair between Iran and Nazi Germany had nothing to do with it.:rolleyes:"

Did the Shah, or did the Shah not officially change the name of the country to Iran after the Nazis took over Germany? Or did the world simply spontaneously begin to call the country "Iran" in recognition of the ongoing love affair with their northern Aryan cousins?

Was there, or was there not a love affair between the Iranians and their northern Aryan cousins?

These are simple questions, which I predict you will either refuse to answer, or spin a lot of obfuscatory rhetoric around.

Edited by kmortis: 
Removed personal attack in quoted material and post

My "claim" is largely self-supporting. Everyone stopped calling the country "Persia" and started calling it "Iran" after the Nazis sprang up in Germany for some reason. I suppose I did assume it was an official name change, rather than a spontaneous one generated by telepathy. Was I wrong?

It is apparently very important to you that everyone believe this happened spontaneously and independently of the rise of the northern Aryan supremists. Have you supported this? Not that I care. Frankly, you are far too domineering and hostile to generate much in the way of a cooperative response from me. Far too much bother to go through all the various refuse of this thread to see if anyone has adequately supported the "spontaneous re-naming" claim. Perhaps the Iranians had always called the country "Iran", and everyone else just spontaneously stopped calling the country "Persia and started calling it "Iran" for no particular reason. But I doubt it. I think there was probably a reason.

I was picking on a piece of BS evidence you presented to that claim.

Were you now. That's interesting. I hadn't noticed.

And it's clearly bogus. And, yeah, I get it, asking you to actually support your delusional propaganda claims is "hostile domineering". Only someone hostile would ask you to actually use proper logic or learn history, right? ;)

Thank you for all your hostile, accusatory rhetoric. Now I don't need to prove my 'hostile domineering" charge. You've done it for me.

You may now continue chewing your bone. If you still have it. In all the excitement of kneeling before your dramatic, domineering post, I may have inadvertently taken it from you.
 
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Doesn't anyone find it odd that they ban every other website, but the Nazi ones are OK with the government?
 
And to further confuse matters, all these websites keep claiming Reza Shah "officially" changed the name of Persia to Iran. Clearly, they are all liars. Who's a muther to believe these days?

http://www.infoplease.com/sports.html


Reza Shah Pahlevi (rē'zä shä pä'luvē) [key], 1877–1944, shah of Iran (1925–41). He began his career as an army officer and gained a reputation for great valor and leadership. He headed a coup in 1921 and became prime minister of the new regime in 1923. He negotiated the evacuation (1921) of the Russian troops and (1924) of the British forces stationed in Iran since World War I. Virtually a dictator, Reza Khan deposed (1925) Ahmad Mirza, the last shah of the Qajar dynasty, and was proclaimed shah of Iran. He changed his name to Reza Shah Pahlevi, thus founding the Pahlevi dynasty, and in 1935 officially changed the name of Persia to Iran. Reza Shah introduced many reforms, reorganizing the army, government administration, and finances. He abolished all special rights granted to foreigners, thus gaining real independence for Iran. Under his rule the Trans-Iranian RR was built, the Univ. of Tehran was established, and industrialization was stepped-up. In World War II his rapprochement with the Germans was protested by the Allies, and in 1941 British and Russian forces invaded and occupied Iran. Forced to abdicate in favor of his son, Muhammad Reza Shah Pahlevi, he died in exile in South Africa."
 
Define "define "every other website".

Two (or more) can play your little "nitpick, stall, and obfuscate" game.

"every other website", makes it appear that Iran is blocking weather.com, Yahoo, BBC, and even JREF.
 
Pardalis said:
but the Nazi ones are OK with the government?

didn't you read my link p.?

"Iran's Ministry of Islamic Guidance and Culture said it has not recognised a neo-Nazi group that recently claimed its website had been registered "according to the laws of the Islamic Republic of Iran".

"The website was only registered [in the ministry's list of approved websites] by an individual," Mehdi Sarami, an official of the ministry, told the Tabnak news portal on Saturday. There was no mention of the neo-Nazi group in the registration form, he said.

The ministry was criticised last week by Tabnak, which is affiliated with the conservative politician Mohsen Rezaie, for unblocking the group's website (irannazi.ir), which discussed Nazi ideology, principles and beliefs and the "Fuhrer's character, thoughts and speeches" in its various forums.

The ministry's censorship body blocked the neo-Nazi website soon after it was created on August 23, unblocked it a month later and has again blocked access since Monday."




http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...o-nazi-website
 
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didn't you read my link p.?

"Iran's Ministry of Islamic Guidance and Culture said it has not recognised a neo-Nazi group that recently claimed its website had been registered "according to the laws of the Islamic Republic of Iran".

"The website was only registered [in the ministry's list of approved websites] by an individual," Mehdi Sarami, an official of the ministry, told the Tabnak news portal on Saturday. There was no mention of the neo-Nazi group in the registration form, he said.

The ministry was criticised last week by Tabnak, which is affiliated with the conservative politician Mohsen Rezaie, for unblocking the group's website (irannazi.ir), which discussed Nazi ideology, principles and beliefs and the "Fuhrer's character, thoughts and speeches" in its various forums.

The ministry's censorship body blocked the neo-Nazi website soon after it was created on August 23, unblocked it a month later and has again blocked access since Monday."




http://www.thenational.ae/news/world...o-nazi-website

Pah - that just shows that they are Nazis - banning a website, what about free-speech?

(I know you posted this in the expectation that folk would check the facts but don't you realise that you can prove anything with facts... especially when you just ignore the ones that contradict the conclusion you want? ;) )
 

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