Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

[tusenfem]

The only way that is going to happen is if a double layer forms between the two 'circuits'. The double layer acceleration process will ultimately result in a rewiring of the circuits.

Double layers cannot accelerate particles in a direction perpendicular to the magnetic field, so next guess please. How about magnetic tension?

How exactly is this double layer going to form between two circuits (and why is circuit in single quote marks, does that mean another mozina redefinition of the word circuit?). And which two circuits are that?

MM, if you have a model of this so called circuit reconnection, than it would be easiest if you would just put it here, so anyone can read and understand it.

Your lack of presenting this model shows you have no model and have to make it up on the go.

Ah well, colour me surprised.

 

[tusenfem]

He does the equations too, but frankly I'm going to let you suffer because it didn't translate well from PDF to html, it will make you want to read the book and maybe you should read it for yourself. I'll warn you it's probably *REALLY* expensive these days since it's now out of print.

Not really, you can get a pdf of the book for nothing.

 

[GeeMack]

Oh for crying out loud....

I found you a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes a solar flare an "electrical discharge", from a guy that works with plasmas at Los Alamos, and the two of you *STILL* want to argue?!?

The quote provided does not make a solar flare an electrical discharge. Reality Check just pointed out within the quote, "The discharge region, or load, encompasses at most a few cubic centimeters of space [...]". A few cubic centimeters of space? A solar flare? Really? As with Lee's paper, it would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest those comments objectively support the claim that electrical discharges are or are the cause of CMEs and solar flares.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Peratt, Anthony L .
Physics of the plasma universe/Anthony L . Peratt .
ISBN 0-387-97575-6

He does the equations too, but frankly I'm going to let you suffer because it didn't translate well from PDF to html,

Please identify the specific equations you consider relevant, and explain why you believe those specific equations are relevant.

it will make you want to read the book and maybe you should read it for yourself. I'll warn you it's probably *REALLY* expensive these days since it's now out of print.

No problem. The passage you've been citing also appears, word for word, in section 3.2 of a paper that's available online:

A.L.Peratt. Advances in Numerical Modeling of Astrophysical and Space Plasmas. Astrophysics and Space Science 242 (1-2), 93-163.
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1996Ap&SS.242...93P/0000093.000.html

That paper also contains 118 numbered equations, plus quite a few unnumbered equations. When you discuss the equations, I suggest you identify them using the numbers in that online paper instead of using the out-of-print book that's expensive and hard to obtain.

Do you see the words "electrical" and "discharge" in there anywhere in yellow?

I see Perratt saying that an electrical discharge occurs when there is a breakdown in "the energy transmission medium". It appears to me that Perratt is referring to a breakdown of the dielectric, so the passage you've been quoting would appear to support GeeMack and RealityCheck's definition of electrical discharge.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I see the words "electrical" and "discharge". I also see an explanation of a discharge,

So are you ready to rescind your ridiculously false claim yet?

There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

Notice what an electrical discharge is:

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

By *DEFINITION* a solar flare is an example *OF* an "electrical discharge" in plasma.

but it appears that Peratt may be a crappy communicator

I don't suppose you read his book either, did you?

and mangled the title of the comment, because nothing in the quote specifies that any electrical discharges are going through any plasma.

Didn't you see that commentary about rapid rises of temperatures, ionization, pinches, filaments, stuff like that?

I'm certainly not responsible for Peratt's deficient language skills

Excuse me? The only "deficiency" around here is your unwillingness to accept reality.

and/or the apparent inability of the electric Sun wackos to understand what they read.

Well, I for one read the work. Did you read his book or is this another installment of "The Clairvoyant Physicist"?

I'm not responsible for the oversights, the ignorance, the misinterpretations, or the dishonest quote mining that crackpots might do to try to support their otherwise unsupportable claims. The burden of proof is on the folks making the ridiculous claims, and when they fail at that responsibility, the arguments have failed.

I have provided you with Bruces work. You handwaved at it. I provided you with Lee's work. You did the same. I provided you with Peratt's work, you handwave at it too. I provided you quotes from Alfven explaining that "current carrying" plasmas make "reconnection" completely unnecessary since induction and circuits works perfectly to explain such behaviors.

I have provided you with a direct quote from a plasma physicist from Los Alamos that demonstrates that by definition a flare *IS* an "electrical discharge". All the denial in the world won't make those papers and books go away GM.

 

[GeeMack]

So are you ready to rescind your ridiculously false claim yet?

The claim that nothing in this passage mentions an electrical discharge?...

2 .6.2 Currents in the Solar Atmosphere

The solar atmosphere consists of a highly conducting plasma in which vertical currents of about 10"-1 0 12 A are common in active regions where solar flares occur. For a current of 1= 3 x 10 " A flowing in a filament of radius a 106 m, /z = 0 .1 ? m2. The length of the filament is l =108m and passes mainly thr?ugh the lower corona in a loo?connecting tw? foot-prints in the photosphere. The coronal plasma density and temperature is taken to be n, = 10 16 m3and T=100 eV (1 06 K) (Table 1 .3) and uniformly distr?buted across the filament so that differential kinetic pressure term ? W k (a) is negligible. Hence,

I(a) is roughly = 3 X 10^11 A
N(a) is rough = 6 X 10^28m^-1

...

Nothing in that mentions an electrical discharge.

Notice what an electrical discharge is:

1 .5 Electr?cal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

By *DEFINITION* a solar flare is an example *OF* an "electrical discharge" in plasma.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about solar or flares of any sort, and nothing but a single word in the heading mentions plasma. So no, it doesn't mention solar flares at all, so it can't possibly mean a solar flare is an example of anything. It would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that comment objectively supports the claim that electrical discharges are or are the cause of CMEs and solar flares.

I don't suppose you read his book either, did you?

No comments from the book have yet supported the silly claim that electrical discharges are or cause solar flares and CMEs. I don't see any reason to read a whole book if the very best quotes the cranks can offer fail so miserably to support the crackpot conjectures. Now maybe if there was some compelling reason, like a shred of objective support.

Didn't you see that commentary about rapid rises of temperatures, ionization, pinches, filaments, stuff like that?

Stuff like that? That may be how crackpots and cranks do science, but it's not how legitimate scientists do science. I don't see a couple of words and radically and dishonestly assume they must mean some cockamamie claim is true. That's not how it's done by any real scientist.

Excuse me? The only "deficiency" around here is your unwillingness to accept reality.

The persistent uncivil personal attacks are, as always, noted.

Well, I for one read the work.

Having read something does not support the claim that electrical discharges are or cause CMEs and solar flares. Many people read many things without having the qualifications to understand them.

Did you read his book or is this another installment of "The Clairvoyant Physicist"?

The persistent uncivil personal attacks are, as always, noted.

I have provided you with Bruces work. You handwaved at it. I provided you with Lee's work. You did the same. I provided you with Peratt's work, you handwave at it too. I provided you quotes from Alfven explaining that "current carrying" plasmas make "reconnection" completely unnecessary since induction and circuits works perfectly to explain such behaviors.

Since the reference material provided has been critically refuted as support for the crackpot electric Sun claim, it has not been hand waved, therefore the comment above is a lie.

I have provided you with a direct quote from a plasma physicist from Los Alamos that demonstrates that by definition a flare *IS* an "electrical discharge". All the denial in the world won't make those papers and books go away GM.

It would be ignorance, stupidity, or a lie to suggest that the Peratt comments provided objectively support the claim that electrical discharges are or are the cause of CMEs and solar flares.

So apparently everything the electric Sun proponents have to offer has been provided. If there's anything else, not a repeat, something new that hasn't been brought up, that would be grand. If not, the claim seems to have failed.

 

[Michael Mozina]

The claim that nothing in this passage mentions an electrical discharge?.

Here is Peratt's definition of an "Electrical discharge *IN* (as in inside of, through, etc) Cosmic Plasma*:

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

Which part in yellow do you NOT understand about "electrical discharges" *IN* cosmic plasmas?

 

[Michael Mozina]

As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating,

Rapid heating like plasmas going from a "luke warm" 5700K up to *MILLIONS* of degrees kelvin. There's your sign.

ionization,

Ionization like neon, carbon, iron and nickel that reach *ABSURDLY HIGH* ionization states inside those coronal loops. There's your second sign.

the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels,

AKA "magnetic ropes/magnetic flux tubes/circuits/current flows/pinches/coronal loops". There's your third sign.

particle acceleration,

Flares accelerate charged particles to a high percentage of the speed of light. Forth sign.

and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

You mean like gamma rays, x-rays, iron ions galore? Fifth sign!

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, flies like duck, eat like a duck, and poops like a duck, don't you think that maybe, just maybe it's a duck?

 

[Michael Mozina]

There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

Ready to rescind that claim yet? Whom shall I believe, you or the guy that works with plasma on a daily basis?

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

By Peratt's definition a flare *IS* an "electrical discharge".

 

[Michael Mozina]

Alfven desribes this "threshhold" at the double layer conference.

D. The Energy Situation in Sweden and Exploding Double Layers

In Sweden the waterpower is located in the north, and the industry in the south. The transfer of power between these regions over a distance of about 1000 km was first done with a.c. When it was realized that d.c. transmission would be cheaper, mercury rectifiers were developed. It turned out that such a system normally worked well, but it happened now and then that the rectifiers produced enormous over-voltages so that fat electrical sparks filled the rectifying station and did considerable harm. In order to get rid of this, a collaboration started between the rectifier constructors and some plasma physicists at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm.

An arc rectifier must have a very low pressure of mercury vapor in order to stand the high back voltages during half of the a.c. cycle. On the other hand, it must be able to carry large currents during the other half-cycle. It turned out that these two requirements were conflicting, because at a very low pressure the plasma could not carry enough current. If the current density is too high, an exploding double layer may be formed. This means that in the plasma a region of high vacuum is produced: the plasma refuses to carry any current at all. At the sudden interruption of the 1000 km inductance produces enormous over-voltages, which may be destructive.

That's what Peratt means when he describes a "threshold".

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

 

[Ziggurat]

That's what Peratt means when he describes a "threshold".

No, actually, it's not. In the former case, the transition is from a conducting state to an insulating state with increasing current. In the latter case, the transition is from an insulating state to a conducting state with increasing field. Those aren't the same at all.

 

[Reality Check]

Oh for crying out loud....

I found you a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes a solar flare an "electrical discharge", from a guy that works with plasmas at Los Alamos, and the two of you *STILL* want to argue?!?

Oh for crying out loud....

You found us a direct quote that by *DEFINITION* makes an electrical discharge a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy.
That same quote talks about centimeter volumes for these discharges and lightning.
The context of the text looks like the generation of laboratory plasma using electrical discharges.

Only in your imagination does this make a solar flare an "electrical discharge".

Anyone who knows the definition of a electrical discharge can understand that Perratt has left out the dielectric media part and will *STILL* argue with you.

But you can prove us wrong: Quote the part of the book where Perratt goes on to actually describe electrical discharges in plasmas, e.g. the physical processes and hopefully the mathematics.

 

[GeeMack]

Here is Peratt's definition of an "Electrical discharge *IN* (as in inside of, through, etc) Cosmic Plasma*:

1 .5 Electrical Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

Which part in yellow do you NOT understand about "electrical discharges" *IN* cosmic plasmas?

No part in yellow says anything about "electrical discharges *IN* cosmic plasmas". Nothing. I've read it several times and it still says: "An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy." That's all it says, thirteen words, no cosmic, no plasma. It would be a lie, ignorant, insane, or just plain stupid for anyone with elementary English speaking skills to argue that it suggests electrical discharges cause solar flares and CMEs.

It looks like everything the electric Sun proponents have to offer has been provided. If there's anything else that isn't a rerun, something new that hasn't been brought up, that would be great. Otherwise the claim that electrical discharges cause CMEs and solar flares remains unsupported.

 

[Michael Mozina]

No part in yellow says anything about "electrical discharges *IN* cosmic plasmas". Nothing.

Let's try again then:

1 .5 Electrical Discharges in Cosmic Plasma An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

Which part in yellow do you *NOW* not understand?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Second question:

Do you think that all "discharge" processes magically stop the moment *SOME* material is ionized by an arc discharge?

Third question:

Have you ever used an arc welder before?

Forth question:

What *DO* you do for a living that somehow makes you an "expert" on the proper application of MHD theory *WITHOUT* having to have even bothered to read Alfven's work, or Peratt's work?

Fifth question:

What did Alfven mean by the term "circuit" in reference to events in space?

 

[Michael Mozina]

There is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

Are you ready to rescind this false claim yet?

 

[Reality Check]

Where are Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges

Are you ready to rescind this false claim yet?

GeeMack and I have nothing to rescind.

By definition it is impossible for an electrical discharge to occur without the breakdown of a dielectric media. Plasmas are conductive and not dielectric media. It is impossible for an electric discharge to happen with plasma. Thus there is no electrical discharge processes involved in solar filament eruptions and CMEs.

Even Anthony Peratt agrees with us as you quoted.

1 .5 Electrical Discharges in Cosmic Plasma
An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation.

Also see Advances in numerical modeling of astrophysical and space plasmas (PDF)where he seems to repeat that page from his book.

1. "An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy".
2. "This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium."

The first sentence is what happens during the discharge.
The second sentence is what is required, i.e. the breakdown of the "energy transmission medium". Breakdown in electrical engineering means the transition of an insulating medium to a conducting medium. Conductive medium like plasma cannot break down since they are already broken!

The page never mentions electrical discharges inside plasmas. The closest to that is the section title above. It does mention

• the generation of particle beams, X-rays and microwaves
• lightning is noted as "the discharge mechanism at work"!
• aurora

He seems to be describing the role of electrical discharges in plasma physics, i.e. to generate plasma.

The confirmation of this is the fact that this section is only one page in his book Cosmic Plasma. The table of contents has no other reference to electrical discharges.
So Micheal Mozina:
First Asked 7 December 2010
Where are Anthony Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges within plasma?

I think he is still alive - maybe you can contact him to ask him to cinform that he meant electric discharges in plasma, why his book ignores then except on that one page (according to you MM) and why he ignored such an Nobel Prize winning discovery.

 

[Michael Mozina]

GeeMack and I have nothing to rescind.

So you have some special knowledge that allows you to *KNOW* with absolute certainty that no discharge processes are involved in flares? Please provide evidence to support that *CLAIM* of knowledge. YEC'er tend to handwave away tons of evidence of evolutionary theory. What they *NEVER* do is produce evidence to support their claims of knowledge.

By definition it is impossible for an electrical discharge to occur without the breakdown of a dielectric media. Plasmas are conductive and not dielectric media.

That statement is not true according to Alfven:

If the current density is too high, an exploding double layer may be formed. This means that in the plasma a region of high vacuum is produced: the plasma refuses to carry any current at all. At the sudden interruption of the 1000 km inductance produces enormous over-voltages, which may be destructive.

Which part of that statement did you not understand?

 

[Ziggurat]

Which part of that statement did you not understand?

The part where a vacuum is a plasma.

Oh, and the part where the transition is from insulating to conducting, not conducting to insulating.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Please answer this question too RC....

Do you think that all "discharge" processes magically stop the moment *SOME* material is ionized by an arc discharge?