Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[Lothian]

And that seems odd for people who are supposed to be unbiased intellectuals not to admit to one speck of evidence in a thread like this. One has to wonder why, why can't some admit to one speck of evidence? People have got to really think about that?

Doc,
We accept many truths in the New Testament. We also accept that you have posted the truth in this thread albeit most of those are when yo give your post count. What we don;t accept is the magic. Water to wine, Walking on water, Resurrection, Virgin birth etc. You have provided zero evidence that the supernatural parts are true.
The fallacies you have presented are not evidence of truth.

....but I am willing to look again. Rather than asking me to look up posts or pointing back to posts that have many claims in them can you simply give again one piece of evidence you have presented. Just one.

 

[carlitos]

I'm going to re-read Revelation next. I would love to see some evidence for the truthiness of that book.

 

[Craig4]

Yes, but it can't be proven that the whole of my position is wrong, therefore people who claim the whole of my position is definitely wrong are wrong based on the facts that are currently in existence.

To falsify your entire thesis all we have to do find one place where they didn't tell the truth. If they didn't tell the truth once then they didn't tell the truth.

 

[John Jones]

DOC,

You have no business impugning anyone's credibility as long as you continue to count the number of your posts as some sort of evidence.

 

[Simon39759]

There's a whole subgenre of historical mystery novels that make actual historical figures into detectives. One series is set in the court of Queen Elizabeth I; another features Jane Austen solving murder mysteries; a third, which may not have reached "series" status, involved Elvis Presley as amateur detective.

Tom De Haven's novel It's Superman!, set in the 1930s, has Lex Luthor being blackmailed by someone who threatens to expose, among other things, photographs of him "with Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker and a representative of a Berlin chemical factory" I haven't noticed the Bush family taking any action -- punitive, punative, or any other sort -- against Mr. De Haven.

I think, Lex Luthor's family would have a better case, actually as the association certainly is more insulting for him...

 

[Craig4]

Doc, if you want to believe this then just believe it. Keep your beliefs in the supernatural. All you do when you drag out your "evidence" is invite scrutiny. As soon as your beliefs enter the real world they become fair game. It's perfectly obvious that you have failed in a most spectacular way at supporting your beliefs with evidence. The logical conclusion here is that you should stop trying. Just say that you're taking a leap of faith and be done with it.

 

[bikerdruid]

Yes, but it can't be proven that the whole of my position is wrong, therefore people who claim the whole of my position is definitely wrong are wrong based on the facts that are currently in existence.

wow....that's a leap of logic if ever i saw one.
people that claim i'm wrong are wrong because i'm right...

 

[Sun Countess]

<snipped>
I posited that they should instead adopt the stance that the sons of Adam married Female Nephilim as described in Genesis 6:1-4.

1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2. the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

Slightly OT, but where did the first daughters of men come from? Obviously Adam could have had daughters, but since it specifies "men," then some of his sons also had daughters which the Nephilim men could seduce at will.

There's a slight implication that if there were any Nephilim women (which isn't stated, and let's face it, god/jeebus were all about hanging out with the menfolk *nudge nudge wink wink*), they weren't as attractive as the human women. There's no indication that Nephilim women would be sexually aggressive enough to start seducing human men, especially in a time when women's sexual services weren't under their own control, but where they could become sexual slaves of neighboring tribes, or auctioned off as slaves or wives by their fathers.

And for the record you have said there is 0 evidence that the NT writers were telling the truth. So that means post 13104 has 0 evidence the NT writers were telling the truth according to your opinion. Since you offered your opinion I'll offer mine. I think it really hurts the credibility of some skeptics to say there is 0 evidence the NT writers were telling the truth. I can see you saying OK there is some evidence, but just not enough to convince me.

Because the evidence is zero. All the evidence points to the writers believing what they wrote is true, or writing what they knew was untrue, but would be enough to convince other gullible people into believing, thus attempting to secure some power for themselves, by gathering followers for their cult.

Did Joseph Smith believe what he wrote was true? Or did he write what he did so that he could start his own little cult and gather up multiple wives in the process?

You still haven't clearly stated why there's more evidence that the unknown NT writers told was the truth, while what the Qu'ran writers and Joseph Smith wrote was not the truth. I mean, you've given reasons, but they're all entirely prejudicial.

Or would you agree that there's some slight bit of evidence that either Joseph Smith or the Qu'ran writers told the truth? If you think their evidence is zero, then please explain your reasoning.

 

[Craig4]

Here's what I get:



That link goes to 404

Oh sorry. You have to delete everything after org in the URL. Then click the science link on the left. I guess including that would have been helpful. It links to a creationist museum website and the content is more or less on par with Answers in Genesis. I didn't see anything there that hasn't already been falsified expect one bit about new protein strands which I didn't read all the way through.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Over 18,000 posts for a subject that has a one word answer.

 

[bikerdruid]

Over 18,000 posts for a subject that has a one word answer.

i'll guess that word is 'none'.
(doc's 2000+ posts notwithstanding.)

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

i'll guess that word is 'none'.
(doc's 2000+ posts notwithstanding.)

/thread

 

[pizzadeliveryninja]

Doc,
....but I am willing to look again. Rather than asking me to look up posts or pointing back to posts that have many claims in them can you simply give again one piece of evidence you have presented. Just one.

I think Lothian makes a good point here.

DOC, you must surely be aware that this thread is going nowhere. You haven't convinced a single person of the veracity of your OP (and please - if there are any of those lurkers so beloved by DOC, now is your time to come forward). The only conversion recorded on the thread so far is someone so disgusted with your evasions, half-truths and frankly cack-handed attempts at reasoning that they decided you were evidently wrong.

Not a good record of success, I would posit.

The thread has been going on for over 2 years, large parts of it sustained purely by people laughing at the stupidity displayed in the thread. It is now a joke, a training ground to demonstrate the lamentable lack of understanding of simple logic, evidence and honesty that can be displayed by the worst of those who arrogantly take on the defence of their religion.

So, let's draw a line. I'm fully aware you are not willing to concede you have failed in the slightest degree to prove your OP. In fact, I'm fully aware that you lack the simple understanding that you have anything to concede on that score. I'm almost in awe of your magnificent ignorance.

But let that slide and let's propose to start again.

The OP has been demolished. Frequently and satisfactorily reduced to intellectual rubble. It lies in tatters, valued only by those who have neither the ability or honesty to see that is the case. It is a dead horse. Flogged by 2600 posts or 26 posts, it is still dead.

Still, let's try to give you a chance. I do sympathise to an extent in that it must feel as though it is you trying to defend your point against an army of others. With - I think - one exception, every single poster on this thread has disagreed with you. Clearly, it isn't possible to respond to all of this barrage of argument, reason, sense and rationality. Especially when you are trying to defend many different points.

So, as I said. Let's draw a line.

Post your single best argument/proof/evidence in support of the OP. And let's see how we get on. You only have to defend the one point and we can all talk about what you think is the strongest point in favour of that which you so earnestly believe.

It saves you time and it saves everyone else time. Surely a good idea?

Please do adopt my suggestion.

 

[X]

And please don't simply post a link back to an earlier post.
All your points thus far have been soundly refuted. There is only one participant in this thread unable to see that.

 

[joobz]

... but it can't be proven that the whole of my position is wrong,...

Why?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Evidence for why we know the Old Testament writers told the truth

Evidence #1

The Old Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves

In Deuteronomy, authored by Moses himself, Moses is described as "meek above all men".

Reason #2
The Old Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of God

For example, in one passage, God is described as "jealous", and in many others portrayed as a genocidal maniac.

Reason #3

The OT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of God

For example, Leviticus 1

The Burnt Offering

1 The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting. He said, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the LORD, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.
3 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, you are to offer a male without defect. You must present it at the entrance to the tent of meeting so that it will be acceptable to the LORD. 4 You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you. 5 You are to slaughter the young bull before the LORD, and then Aaron’s sons the priests shall bring the blood and splash it against the sides of the altar at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 6 You are to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 9 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

10 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, you are to offer a male without defect. 11 You are to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the LORD, and Aaron’s sons the priests shall splash its blood against the sides of the altar. 12 You are to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange them, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 13 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of them and burn them on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

14 “‘If the offering to the LORD is a burnt offering of birds, you are to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop and the feathers[a] and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not dividing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is burning on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

Reason #9

The Old Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.

If they made it up they would most likely describe things like manna raining from heaven, the plagues, and rains of fire and brimstone using bland and extravagant images. Moses even describes his own funeral in a matter of fact almost bland way.

Reason #10
The Old Testament Writers were so convinced of their beliefs that they gladly slaughtered anyone who they perceived God as ordering them to, even through systematic ethnic cleansing, even with the inherent danger of doing so.

 

[Rincewind]

Tubba/Blubba remindes us that:

Moses even describes his own funeral in a matter of fact almost bland way.

So Moses also must have come back from the dead?

How else could he have done this?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Oh - and good post, too!

 

[Lothian]

Evidence for why we know the Old Testament writers told the truth
......

Tubba we did that for Islam in another thread. Apparently those 'reasons' are only 'evidence' when it is Christianity being discussed.

 

[Gandalfs Beard]

Evidence for why we know the Old Testament writers told the truth

Evidence #1

The Old Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details About Themselves

In Deuteronomy, authored by Moses himself, Moses is described as "meek above all men".

Reason #2
The Old Testament Writers Included Embarrassing Details and Difficult Sayings of God

For example, in one passage, God is described as "jealous", and in many others portrayed as a genocidal maniac.

Reason #3

The OT Writers Left in Very Demanding Sayings of God

For example, Leviticus 1

The Burnt Offering

1 The LORD called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting. He said, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When anyone among you brings an offering to the LORD, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock.
3 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the herd, you are to offer a male without defect. You must present it at the entrance to the tent of meeting so that it will be acceptable to the LORD. 4 You are to lay your hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on your behalf to make atonement for you. 5 You are to slaughter the young bull before the LORD, and then Aaron’s sons the priests shall bring the blood and splash it against the sides of the altar at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 6 You are to skin the burnt offering and cut it into pieces. 7 The sons of Aaron the priest are to put fire on the altar and arrange wood on the fire. 8 Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall arrange the pieces, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 9 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

10 “‘If the offering is a burnt offering from the flock, from either the sheep or the goats, you are to offer a male without defect. 11 You are to slaughter it at the north side of the altar before the LORD, and Aaron’s sons the priests shall splash its blood against the sides of the altar. 12 You are to cut it into pieces, and the priest shall arrange them, including the head and the fat, on the wood that is burning on the altar. 13 You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to bring all of them and burn them on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

14 “‘If the offering to the LORD is a burnt offering of birds, you are to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop and the feathers[a] and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not dividing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is burning on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

Reason #9

The Old Testament Writers Describe Miracles Like Other Historical Events: With Simple, Unembellished Accounts.

If they made it up they would most likely describe things like manna raining from heaven, the plagues, and rains of fire and brimstone using bland and extravagant images. Moses even describes his own funeral in a matter of fact almost bland way.

Reason #10
The Old Testament Writers were so convinced of their beliefs that they gladly slaughtered anyone who they perceived God as ordering them to, even through systematic ethnic cleansing, even with the inherent danger of doing so.

Nominated. For the Satire.

GB

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Tubba we did that for Islam in another thread. Apparently those 'reasons' are only 'evidence' when it is Christianity being discussed.

No, that's just because we are biased