Unemployment

I'm not on unemployment. I don't take one dime from the government. We don't even get food stamps and today we aren't sure what we're going to eat next week. I hope that cheers you up some.

Just to be clear again, I didn't say anything about unemployment. In fact I think unemployment insurance is a good thing and I don't have a problem with it. Nor do I have a problem with unemployed people. I was just trying to illustrate how it feels to be picked on because of the GROUP you are in.

I find it disgusting that you think everyone out of a job is getting unemployment benefits. Some of us are getting nothing at all except terrified.

Lots of people don't qualify for unemployment (or workers comp). I totally concede your point. Again I was just giving back the class warfare. Obviously I touched a nerve.
 
There are a couple of things that crack me up about this self-righteous dickishness.

First, no one ever considers that they're lucky. You think that somehow your success is indicative of a normal experience. If course, no one arrogant enough to write that post could ever bring themselves to realize that some factors beyond their immediate control were necessary.

But fine, I get that, it's human nature.

The funny part is that you're arrogant enough to rip on everyone who doesn't share your wealth, and yet you don't attribute the disparity to your skill. What if you're just better?

But TraneWreck, everyone's equal. It's very politically incorrect to say that some people might actually be more capable than others. ;)

I make a lot of money because I attended a top ten law school. I got into that school because I sat down and took the LSAT with tens of thousands of other people and scored in the 99th percentile.

Good for you! I couldn't afford to go to university.

How much do you pay in income taxes every year?

My form of arrogance says that I'm talented (for the sake of this response--obviously I had the great advantage of parents who stressed education...etc.) and that's why I'm well off. I don't expect others to follow my path because they can't, no matter how hard they work.

That's fine. My path however is open to anyone who wants to work hard. I use as evidence the millions of other uneducated small business owners, many of them immigrants like myself.

I have a foolproof system for success. Work hard, very hard. Save your money. Start businesses in areas you've been working in with your saved money. Rinse and repeat. Maybe you'll never make a million dollars but I guarantee you'll survive and likely prosper in a place like the USA.

The funny thing is it's not about skill, it's about attitude and work ethic. There's plenty of millionaires from cleaning carpets or washing windows.

But here you are basically saying that anyone can do what you did. It's not that impressive, you just have to fill out a few bits of paper. If your blind-slandering of everyone going through tough times in the worst job market since the 30's wasn't enough to lose you any respect, the fact that your success is so very uninteresting more than does the job.

I don't expect that everyone will have the same level of success as me. However, people's financials are in their own hands. The average person does as good as job with their finances as they do with their weight. Americans do seem to be learning these lessons right now.

I agree it's completely possible to get caught in a situation not of your own making due to circumstance that makes it very difficult to make a living. These current economic times are certainly like that. I certainly feel bad for people, especially kids, who are having a hard time making ends meet through no fault. Contrary to popular opinion here I do support things like unemployment insurance. However, I also think that a system which is too easy to get on can cause dependency and is bad. I have several relatives who have lived their whole lives on welfare and who work occasionally under the table for extra money. IMHO these people would be productive members of society if they didn't have the crutch.

Lot's of people work hard, not that many are talented.

I see a lot of people claiming they are working hard but strategically they aren't making the right decisions. I suppose strategy is a form of talent as well but there is plenty of ways to learn about business. Some of them are kidding themselves as well about how hard they are working.

However, I do agree that talent is a factor. Most of my rich buddies are fairly smart people. I would argue a talent for working with people is probably more important than advanced technical skill for making money.

Thus, I'm happy that my abilities can help put food on people's tables or make sure they can buy their kids clothes or whatever. It's not a big deal for me to pay a little more. Maybe I just set aside some of the creature comforts that I indulge in. No more Direct League pass, or whatever. It's a small sacrifice and if you really were a macho tough guy, you would shrug it off.

Look, I agree. It's not a big deal to pay a bit more in taxes. To me it's not the taxes, it's how they are spent. If I thought that not extending the tax cuts *would actually solve a problem* I would be all for it. I don't want to give the fools in Washington another dime with their current policies. They will just continue to piss it away on wars (and a lot of other things).


And, of course, the dirty little secret is that by ensuring that the population has money and skills (through education), we ensure that there are people who can afford my services.

I totally agree but you need to show me the big picture on how the government getting more revenue from me actually fixes anything. That's the disconnect here.

Both in an altruistic sense and from pure self-interest, progressive taxation and strong social safety nets are preferable.

I still don't think we need progressive taxation. In fact I would rather see a consumption tax and get rid of income tax completely. I would also be fine with some sort of federal property tax. Income tax to me is unnecessarily invasive. Again, I know I'm in the minority here is having more of a libertarian view on this stuff. I just don't think the fed needs to be as large as it is, period.

I agree that some sort of social net is necessary but I don't think we've developed a good system yet. Ultimately as productivity increases I think a minimum income type setup could actually work. We may not have a choice as there just may not be the jobs available to keep everyone working in the future. If the choice is starving mobs or higher taxes, I'll take higher taxes every time. But don't expect me to not want to explore alternatives before giving in and accepting a massive government.
 
But TraneWreck, everyone's equal. It's very politically incorrect to say that some people might actually be more capable than others. ;)

[...]


I agree that some sort of social net is necessary but I don't think we've developed a good system yet. Ultimately as productivity increases I think a minimum income type setup could actually work. We may not have a choice as there just may not be the jobs available to keep everyone working in the future. If the choice is starving mobs or higher taxes, I'll take higher taxes every time. But don't expect me to not want to explore alternatives before giving in and accepting a massive government.

When we discuss policy, I often find myself disagreeing with you, but you're reasonable, so the discussions are more interesting than heated.

What I don't understand is this venom aimed at people on the bottom. There really aren't jobs right now. About 90% of start-up businesses fail. It's not just about hard work.

And again, it still baffles me that you're interested in making your success seem so banal. Do you take pride in something that's so easy? It certainly sounds like you're rightly pleased about what you've accomplished, but if it was just something anyone could do, where is the source of that pride? Everyone wipes their ass and it isn't real difficult, thus I don't beam with self-satisfaction every time I flush the toilet.
 
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When we discuss policy, I often find myself disagreeing with you, but you're reasonable, so the discussions are more interesting than heated.

I am a bit of dick but I don't consider myself an extremist. I try to put myself in other peoples shoes and try to think how I would survive. Moving to another country with a suitcase was an awesome challenge that I really enjoyed.

What I don't understand is this venom aimed at people on the bottom. There really aren't jobs right now. About 90% of start-up businesses fail. It's not just about hard work.

The only way you fail is to stop trying. Most people simply don't put a heavy emphasis on winning financially. Those that do tend to do well. Sure everyone has their foul-ups and failures, that's how you learn. Very few entrepreneurs who stick with it fail time after time after time.

And again, it still baffles me that you're interested in making your success seem so banal. Do you take pride in something that's so easy?

It's not easy, it's a ton of hard work. It's just not complicated. The formula for success is easy, but it's not easy to actually do the work. I think it's similar to losing weight. If you can stop eating, you will lose weight! If you work hard at your own business and live frugally eventually something will fall in your favor. Most people don't take their finances seriously which is the first step to building wealth.

Although I'm not a christian or a republican I am a big fan of Dave Ramsey's methods. He pushes a no debt type lifestyle with appropriate living within your means. More people need to do this. Even with my income I could easily get into financial trouble if I overextended myself. Since so many people are stretched to begin with it becomes very very hard to escape the trap of poverty. Then they make bad choices (like getting married when at 20 or having kids before getting financially established). This stuff can be turned around but people really have to work unbelievably hard at it. I don't expect survival to be easy.

It certainly sounds like you're rightly pleased about what you've accomplished, but if it was just something anyone could do, where is the source of that pride?

As I explained about it's not complicated but it's also not easy. There is also some luck involved with anything. But it's the putting in the hard work that's involved that I'm actually proud of.

Everyone wipes their ass and it isn't real difficult, thus I don't beam with self-satisfaction every time I flush the toilet.

Look, we all put our pants on one leg at a time. To me the most precious thing in the world is cuddling up with my woman or spending time with the family. Everyone, including our caveman ancestors, could enjoy the best things in life. The difference between a middle class american lifestyle and a rich lifestyle is really how nice your toys are. We both have indoor plumbing, plenty of varied foods, medical care (for the most part, we could do a lot better) etc. I don't think just because you're rich you should lord it over everyone else. I've just gotten kind of mad at the entitlement mentality that people seem to have these days.

Of course I've been very clear in the past that I don't consider myself rich, merely upper middle class (probably similar to you as a successful lawyer). Everyone else argued with me though and it does seem like the average person would consider my income "rich". Everythings relative. All I know is that modern life in america is unbelievably abundant with opportunity for those willing to step up and take it.
 
Start a business in your area? If not, why not?
Can you troubleshoot TCP/IP when you can't get an internet connection? Recover a borked 4 GB MS Outlook email store using the the Linux 'dd' command? Split a 16 GB USB thumb drive into an 8 GB FAT32 and 8 GB ext3 partition and get the ext3 partition to book knoppix using EXTLINUX? Set up a DNS server for your local LAN and get DCHP to update it so that laptops that connect to the LAN are findable using DNS? Install Linux on a PC that doesn't have a CD or DVD drive by booting it using PXE, so the computer downloads the installation media over the LAN instead of using a DVD?

If not, why not?
 
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Can you troubleshoot TCP/IP when you can't get an internet connection?

I would feel comfortable implementing my own TCP stack on the OS of your choice. I'm comfortable both on the software and to some extent the hardware side (I'm on some hardware review boards as an ISV and have participated in some of the latest chip designs).

Recover a borked 4 GB MS Outlook email store using the the Linux 'dd' command?

More than likely although I would have to RTFM a bit. Outlike is a pile btw, we run our company on gmail and it's awesome. I hate exchange with a passion.

Split a 16 GB USB thumb drive into an 8 GB FAT32 and 8 GB ext3 partition and get the ext3 partition to book knoppix using EXTLINUX?

If it's possible I'm sure I could figure it out yeah. It's been a while since I've played around with Linux but our mercurial box runs it.

Set up a DNS server for your local LAN and get DCHP to update it so that laptops that connect to the LAN are findable using DNS?

I setup our domain (we run windows server). I also setup our source code repository. I've also done a ton of programming and management of programming teams, hiring people etc. My programming specialty is graphics but I'm a fairly good generalist. I don't write a ton of code these days though.

Install Linux on a PC that doesn't have a CD or DVD drive by booting it using PXE, so the computer downloads the installation media over the LAN instead of using a DVD?

We do the same thing but with windows. I'm sure I could figure it out.

If not, why not?

Not really fair since I own a tech company. If you were a surgeon I would be screwed because I don't like blood. Computers I love.
 
For every dollar given to people as unemployment benefits, there are $1.61 in economic activity. As a corollary, every $1 given as tax breaks to the rich generates - wait for it - $.32 in economic activity. So giving money to the rich helps the economy how? ....

Supporting evidence?
 
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Not really fair since I own a tech company. If you were a surgeon I would be screwed because I don't like blood. Computers I love.

Good; that was the point of my post. Assuming anyone can start and run a successful business is just as silly as assuming everyone has what it takes to be a successful surgeon, butcher, airline pilot, long distance trucker, rocket scientist, artist, dentist, police chief, etc.

The entrepreneurs are luckier than many in that they have the option available to them of starting a new business when the economy is in bad shape. But being good at it requires a set of skills that not everyone possesses.

For example, your average computer user doesn't like it when geeks lecture them about not knowing their computers very well. The user just wants his computer to work; he or she doesn't want to know about operating systems, TCP/IP, hardware installation, or even anti-virus software. Likewise, the large majority of unemployed people don't want to start a business because it's way outside their comfort zone and more than likely outside their skillset. They just want to work.
 
Good; that was the point of my post. Assuming anyone can start and run a successful business is just as silly as assuming everyone has what it takes to be a successful surgeon, butcher, airline pilot, long distance trucker, rocket scientist, artist, dentist, police chief, etc.

It's just business skill in addition to knowing something about a sector. Business skills can be learned. In fact I recommend people work in the industry they want to build a business in first. Double bonus, you get paid to learn!

The entrepreneurs are luckier than many in that they have the option available to them of starting a new business when the economy is in bad shape. But being good at it requires a set of skills that not everyone possesses.

Not everyone possesses but that everyone can learn. It's not like it requires years of schooling to understand how to run a business. Start small, make mistakes, keep pumping away. Hard work.

For example, your average computer user doesn't like it when geeks lecture them about not knowing their computers very well. The user just wants his computer to work; he or she doesn't want to know about operating systems, TCP/IP, hardware installation, or even anti-virus software. Likewise, the large majority of unemployed people don't want to start a business because it's way outside their comfort zone and more than likely outside their skillset. They just want to work.

True enough. But that doesn't remove the fact that everyone is responsible for their own finances. Learning this stuff isn't optional for anyone. Learning computers is.
 
It's just business skill in addition to knowing something about a sector. Business skills can be learned. In fact I recommend people work in the industry they want to build a business in first. Double bonus, you get paid to learn!

Not everyone possesses but that everyone can learn. It's not like it requires years of schooling to understand how to run a business. Start small, make mistakes, keep pumping away. Hard work.
I'll concede that business skills can be learned. But there are two further hurdles.

First, not everyone has the same capacity for learning new skills. I have attempted to teach simple computer skills to many people who simply did not "get" things like hierarchical file systems (folders within folders), mark / copy / paste, or even the idea that you can have more than one program open at a time on your desktop and switch between them. One of these people is a very nice retired school teacher with a Masters degree in education. She's not stupid, but she simply does not understand computers.

Second, not everyone has the passion required to run a small business. It means looking for customers (if you're selling things) or clients (if you're selling services.) It means looking after accounts and inventory. If you need staff, it means understanding employment codes and managing people. If you're doing retail, it means worrying how you're going to pay your suppliers and employees on time. If you're doing consulting, it means building a network of contacts at the same time you're trying to do the work. All that takes time, energy and effort.

Most people don't want to spend the time and energy required to learn how to use Windows effectively, let alone become familiar with the layout of the filesystem, FAT32 vs NTFS, cache vs buffers vs free RAM, or even the difference between an email program and a web browser! And so most people don't want to learn how to run their own business. They're happy to leave that to the entrepreneurs--the ones who have that passion and drive.

True enough. But that doesn't remove the fact that everyone is responsible for their own finances. Learning this stuff isn't optional for anyone. Learning computers is.
Yes, knowing how to manage your finances is a really good thing. But does everyone need to know the ins and outs of fractional reserve banking and international commerce before they open a bank account? Should they need to know how shipping contracts are negotiated before buying a trinket that's made in China? Should they know about electricity generation and the distribution grid before they turn on a light? Or PAL vs NTSC before watching a television program?

Why should everyone be trained up to become a business owner in order to participate in the job market?
 
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A good friend of mine is from Sask originally. What he said is that basically most of the young people move away leaving a shortage of workers.


That was true, but the population here is growing all the time now. There's more people here now than ever before. We definitely need more immigration, though.
 
I'll concede that business skills can be learned. But there are two further hurdles.

First, not everyone has the same capacity for learning new skills. I have attempted to teach simple computer skills to many people who simply did not "get" things like hierarchical file systems (folders within folders), mark / copy / paste, or even the idea that you can have more than one program open at a time on your desktop and switch between them. One of these people is a very nice retired school teacher with a Masters degree in
education. She's not stupid, but she simply does not understand computers.

I get what you're saying here. The average person is too dumb to take of themselves. Is that it?

Second, not everyone has the passion required to run a small business. It means looking for customers (if you're selling things) or clients (if you're selling services.) It means looking after accounts and inventory. If you need staff, it means understanding employment codes and managing people. If you're doing retail, it means worrying how you're going to pay your suppliers and employees on time. If you're doing consulting, it means building a network of contacts at the same time you're trying to do the work. All that takes time, energy and effort.

Fine, then don't start a business. Work for someone and actually live below your means and save money. This way if a depression hits you'll at least have a buffer to fall back on. Of course some people will get caught without this because they are just starting out. Also unemployment insurance would probably cover some gap as well.


Most people don't want to spend the time and energy required to learn how to use Windows effectively, let alone become familiar with the layout of the filesystem, FAT32 vs NTFS, cache vs buffers vs free RAM, or even the difference between an email program and a web browser! And so most people don't want to learn how to run their own business. They're happy to leave that to the entrepreneurs--the ones who have that passion and drive.

That's well and good but if you take that attitude about things that are important (look food and shelter) then you will have some serious problems. When does a persons responsibility to take care of themselves end? Also should people who can't manage their own lives be given a vote? To me this is basic stuff.

Yes, knowing how to manage your finances is a really good thing. But does everyone need to know the ins and outs of fractional reserve banking and international commerce before they open a bank account? Should they need to know how shipping contracts are negotiated before buying a trinket that's made in China? Should they know about electricity generation and the distribution grid before they turn on a light? Or PAL vs NTSC before watching a television program?

Nope, they don't know to know all of that. They do need to know how to balance a checkbook. They especially need a good understand of what debt is, how to use it, how much it costs and when it's bad (hint: almost always when it's consumer debt).


Why should everyone be trained up to become a business owner in order to participate in the job market?

Like I said, work for someone else. I recommend people start out working for others anyway to learn the ropes and save up money for their own shop. If they don't want to start their own shop they can always invest that money. BTW Investing is another thing that the average joe should pay more attention to. Most people seem to have a hard time understanding what a 401k is.

I'd also like to point out that even if you don't want to go into business for yourself that at least it's an option we have here. In some countries starting a business is actually quite difficult due to corruption. I truly believe that anyone has a decent chance of becoming wealthy over their lifetime if they follow some simple principals. Again let me relate this back to the weight thread where they are talking about choices. Anyone can maintain their weight through proper choices, it's just really damn hard to always make the right choice. Same with finances. An awful lot is about discipline.

Anyway I do believe that people are responsible for their own financial house. If you are going year after year constantly having money problems then you are probably doing something wrong and not *just* having bad luck. Of course there will be outliers who hit a bad run and just can't get a break but this isn't the normal case. Most people make their own beds by making bad or immature choices.
 
That was true, but the population here is growing all the time now. There's more people here now than ever before. We definitely need more immigration, though.

I can imagine it's hard to get people to move there. I love Canada but I have to be near a coast to be happy.
 

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