Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Dan O.]

Scroll up a few. Justianian2 thinks the Knoxs should have pulled a "Rambo" on the Kerchers. Suggesting violence goes way beyond "misplaced emotion", it borders on mental illness.

I guess you get a pass at parsing English being it's not your primary language. What Justinian2 said is that Mr Knox showed great restraint by not taking the Rambo path.



ETA: this is already OT and will likely be shoveled off to AAH with about 80% or more of the preceding several pages of posts. As a token gesture to the moderators, I will endevor to not reply to any more off topic posts.

 

[platonov]

Straight questions - non answers.

And..... off you go again. You really should learn to stop misrepresenting people. It's misleading at best, and mendacious at worst. Where did I write that I had no interest in what the appeal documents say? Can you show me where?

I thought not.

Here's what I actually said, just to highlight your misrepresentation:



Where in this quote do I represent my interest (or, as you'd like to put it, my lack of interest) in what the appeal documents say?

The fact that you completely ignored the relevant portion* of this post originally [instead going OT & also claiming not to understand links to your own posts] and after being asked again, have yet to respond even on what the 'summaries' ** have to say - preferring to debate your own theories.

*

But lets see the translated appeal docs - ask CW or halides1 to provide them.
The 'summaries' on IIP, which admittedly are probably not trustworthy, have no such certainty on ToD.
Obviously the defence will go again for an early (perhaps earlier) ToD range but that's no guarantee it will be accepted.
And indeed without other evidence being overturned or produced it will make no difference.

** If you believe they are completely untrustworthy (they may well be) say so - otherwise why the refusal to engage even on the basis of their limited value.

But RoseMontague (above) may be able to provide the fully translated relevant sections - so I shall look to that.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

in the parents' shoes

But Chris, you give those words anyway, even if you do not believe they would be welcomed, because it is the right thing to do. And you give those words of sympathy close in time to the death, not three years later. What was written in the recent press release by the Knox family is what should have, and could have been done three years ago.

Christianahannah,

If I were in Raffaele's or Amanda's parents' position, I would want to talk to the Kerchers, but I would hold myself back. It would seem presumptuous to express sympathy so long as my child were under suspicion. By the time Edda arrived in Perugia, Amanda and Raffaele were already detained. I don't especially want to second guess either the Kercher family or the Mellas/Knox/Sollecito families unless I had to walk in the shoes.

 

[Alt+F4]

I guess you get a pass at parsing English being it's not your primary language. What Justinian2 said is that Mr Knox showed great restraint by not taking the Rambo path.

Which is what Justinian2 thinks is the proper path....violence. Keep defending him, I really didn't expect anything different, but you did prove my point.

 

[RoseMontague]

Which is what Justinian2 thinks is the proper path....violence. Keep defending him, I really didn't expect anything different, but you did prove my point.

It is clear to me that Justinian2 thinks the correct path is not violence. He said that would be the first impulse.

Originally Posted by RoseMontague View Post
My opinion on this is that the Knox family has shown remarkable restraint on this subject. If it were my daughter I would be telling Mr. Kercher exactly where he could stick his sympathy.

Originally Posted by Justinian2
I agree. The first impulse would be to become Rambo. The second impulse would be to become Rambo of the verbal insults. It must be very tough to show the restraint the Knox family has.

Why are they restrained? That is a truly great comment because the only logical reason they would have to be restrained is to keep the forum open for logic. Why keep the logical debate going? Because they know they will win if logic and fact prevail.

If the courts embrace logic and fact with no hysteria, the Knox family has a slam dunk case!

If they thought it was hopeless, they could be as nasty as they wanted.

In my opinion, not mind reading I have bolded what I feel he thinks is the correct path.

 

[Alt+F4]

It is clear to me that Justinian2 thinks the correct path is not violence. He said that would be the first impulse.

Well that's two folks defending him.

 

[platonov]

One part of the TOD debate I have not seen discussed much here are the calculations regarding TOD based on body temperature. From Raffaele's appeal:



I would love to see a discussion on this by someone conversant with this and explained to me (being not an expert on this matter). The one question that bothers me is the estimate of Meredith's weight. Had she not seen a doctor recently? Every time I go to the doctor they weigh me, check my blood pressure and temperature. What was her weight as of her last doctor's visit?
Was this discussed in any of the reports?

It was, but that point is now moot. They don't have the actual weight.
ETA - In any case it only gives ranges & with the lack of an alibi after 9.10 ......

Of more relevance perhaps is what the appeal docs are putting forward as the putative ToD - what kind of ranges.

.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rambo to the rescue

Scroll up a few. Justianian2 thinks the Knoxs should have pulled a "Rambo" on the Kerchers. Suggesting violence goes way beyond "misplaced emotion", it borders on mental illness. Of course, no one that believes in Amanda's innocence will condem this fool, because he thinks they are innocent too.

Yes, the folks over at PMF can be quite mean but stop with the hypocrisy.

Alt+F4,

I interpret the initial impulse to become Rambo as meaning to break Amanda out of prison, not to harm the Kerchers. More generally, I think each person here, at PMF, or elsewhere is responsible for his or her own words. Nor should the lack of a response be construed as either agreeing or disagreeing with comments someone somewhere finds offensive.

 

[Dan O.]

One part of the TOD debate I have not seen discussed much here are the calculations regarding TOD based on body temperature. From Raffaele's appeal:



I would love to see a discussion on this by someone conversant with this and explained to me (being not an expert on this matter). The one question that bothers me is the estimate of Meredith's weight. Had she not seen a doctor recently? Every time I go to the doctor they weigh me, check my blood pressure and temperature. What was her weight as of her last doctor's visit?
Was this discussed in any of the reports?

The weight isn't the only factor at issue. We are looking at an exponential decay of the body loosing heat to the environment. Tenths of a degree difference in the final body temperature or the estimated ambient temperature result in hours of difference in the estimated time of death. Yet Lalli only measured to the nearest degree. The insulation factor changes the time scale and can result in a large error yet this factor was only roughly estimated.

The ambient temperature was measured a couple of times but there was no measure of the temperature in the cottage overnight after the murder. If the heat was turned off, the whole cottage would have cooled off rapidly with the door and window open. If the heat was on, meredith's room would have gotten much hotter as the heat tried to compensate for the draft.

There are calculators online for ToD calculations based on body temperature.
Ie: http://www.swisswuff.ch/calculators/todeszeit.php

If you play with the numbers in the calculator, you soon realize how inaccurate this estimate is.

 

[Fine]

Fine,

The Daily Telegraph article that you cited stated that in the interview on 5 November, “He retracted his previous statement and justified his conduct by say that it was Knox who convinced him to give a false version of events.” This sounds like the police version of his interrogation, and that obviously took place on 5 November, not in front of Judge Matteini. Dempsey said that the police kept telling him words to the effect of, “Don’t give us s***.”

Later the same article stated, “Clearly it is possible to contest that Sollecito Raffaele, in the audience with judge, affirmed that he passed the entire night between November 1 and 2 with Knox Amanda.[…]” I have now seen three versions of Raffaele’s appearance before Judge Matteini, and they all say essentially the same thing, that the two spent the night together.

By final words, I meant those spoken in a courtroom. The diary is a subject for another day. However, it looks to me as if you are making an assumption about the interpolation.

________________________

Well, you are correct, Halides, the article I cited does not explicitly quote Raffaele and so your interpretation is the best one. Judge Matteini, in speaking of Raffaele's "retraction" was referring to his retraction before the cops. I stand corrected. I was also mistaken about the date of his interrogation before Judge Matteini. That happened on November 8, 2007. The judge's REPORT was released on November 9, 2007.

That said, I'll continue to believe that on November 8 Raffaele was still blaming Amanda for persuading him to lie to the cops. How else to explain his statement of November 13---released by his attorney---in which he blamed Amanda for his arrest? If he had lied to the cops about Amanda's whereabouts---using his own "free will"---would he not be blaming himself for his arrest?

I wish I could find some source---in English or Italian---which quotes verbatim Raffaele's statements before Judge Matteini concerning this delicate issue.....whether Amanda is to blame for his lies.

And, yes, Raffaele's "final words" since November 8, 2007 is that the lovebirds spent the night of November 1, 2007 together at his flat. We can agree on that.

///

 

[platonov]

Does anybody really believe,even if you believe the two defendants are guilty,Curatolo's evidence that Amanda and Raffaele gave from 9.27 to 11.30 or midnight on November 1 2007 in the carpark watching the cottage. Curatolo is simply "A LIAR FOR HIRE" If kevin is right and I believe he is there is proof of computer activity during between 8.30 and 01.00 on the night of the murder.Should the court not immediatly stop the trial ,release the two defendants and instigate an investigation as to who framed Amanda knox and Raffaele Sollecito

I'm afraid Kevin is not right on this (and you have misinterpreted C's evidence )

See links from this post/exchange.

<snip>

Amanda was questioned all night by a group of twelve detectives without a lawyer or an intepreter bullied into signing a confession,then held up to public ridicule, by being driven through the streets of Perugia in a police convoy with sirens blaring and celebrating police officers,I wonder if a captured Italian soldier in Afghanistan was interrogated like Amanda was and praded through the streets of a Taliban controlled area,how lowd would be the protest of the Italian governament

Get sentimental about the Kerchers if ye like,but if any of ye inocent guilty or dissenter were where the Knox Mellas Sollecito families are ye would be only interested in one thing the saving of your own children

You might need to check some of these 'factoids' - you seem to be stuck on some earlier 'talking points' that have long since been disabused.

OT ? musing - Is there something about the name 'Knox' that lends itself to the popularity of this particular convict.

 

[LondonJohn]

The weight isn't the only factor at issue. We are looking at an exponential decay of the body loosing heat to the environment. Tenths of a degree difference in the final body temperature or the estimated ambient temperature result in hours of difference in the estimated time of death. Yet Lalli only measured to the nearest degree. The insulation factor changes the time scale and can result in a large error yet this factor was only roughly estimated.

The ambient temperature was measured a couple of times but there was no measure of the temperature in the cottage overnight after the murder. If the heat was turned off, the whole cottage would have cooled off rapidly with the door and window open. If the heat was on, meredith's room would have gotten much hotter as the heat tried to compensate for the draft.

There are calculators online for ToD calculations based on body temperature.
Ie: http://www.swisswuff.ch/calculators/todeszeit.php

If you play with the numbers in the calculator, you soon realize how inaccurate this estimate is.

In addition to all this, I still can't understand why it had to take Lalli until late in the night of the 2nd to measure the body temperature in any case. The murder was discovered at 1pm, and I understand that Lalli was on the scene by mid/late-afternoon. The explanation seems to be that the room was crowded with forensics personnel, and that there was no opportunity for Lalli to conduct even preliminary investigations of the body. But surely it wouldn't have taken longer than five minutes to obtain the body temperature using a rectal probe - assuming Lalli could satisfy himself that he wasn't going to contaminate other evidence by taking the temperature.

It's certainly a complete mystery why Lalli didn't weigh Meredith's body as part of the autopsy. It's an absolutely routine part of any autopsy, let alone a forensic one. It's unlikely that Meredith lost much more than 1 litre (= roughly 1kg) of blood outside her body, since the autopsy suggests that a) she choked to death before she died of blood loss; b) much of the blood from the ruptured artery would have remained in her body, since it would have entered the lungs (contributing to the asphyxiation); and c) even somebody who purely dies of blood loss only has to lose around 2 litres of blood for this to happen.

Also, as many have pointed out, the Henssge Nomogram gives pretty exponentially imprecise results the lower the residual body temperate is. At the residual temperature that Lalli finally took, the margin of ToD error for the nomogram is vast - in the order of around 8 hours I think. Had he been able to measure the residual temperature at, say, 3pm on the 2nd - and had he also accurately weighed the body and checked the ambient temperatures more thoroughly - the nomogram would have been able to produce a far smaller time range for ToD

 

[shuttlt]

I don't see where you are going with this question. If A is true, they have an alibi. If A is not true, they also have an alibi.

My original thought isn't important.

There is evidence, in the form of the computer logs, that someone was at Sollecito's house using the computer all night.

Then they are home free and nothing else really matters, so long as this evidence is solid.

Knox and Sollecito claim it was them, and if Curatolo is discounted there is absolutely no time-sensitive evidence putting them outside Sollecito's house on the night of the murder.

Does there have to be any time-sensitive evidence?

DNA does not come with a time stamp. If they were at home at the night of the murder, then that just means that the bra clasp DNA and knife DNA must have gotten there by some other means and at some other time than the prosecution supposed, meaning contamination or falsification are responsible for those results.

Absolutely, if there is proof that they were somewhere else then this follows. This seems to be one of the standard ways that one proves that DNA evidence is down to contamination.

This is, I think, why Massei and the prosecution had to concoct a reason to have absolute faith in Curatolo and a story to fit with Curatolo's testimony. Without Curatolo to magic them out of Raffaele's house and on to the streets of Perugia there's no real case at all.

Unless they have evidence, like rock solid computer logs, that they were home then they have no meaningful alibi for significant parts of the evening. If they have physical evidence that they can prove that they were at home, then that trumps Curatolo. If they can't, it hardly requires any magic to suppose they might have left the house.

 

[Alt+F4]

Unless they have evidence, like rock solid computer logs, that they were home then they have no meaningful alibi for significant parts of the evening. If they have physical evidence that they can prove that they were at home, then that trumps Curatolo. If they can't, it hardly requires any magic to suppose they might have left the house.

Even rock solid computer logs could only provide an alibi for one person. Could his defense be going separate from hers?

 

[Onofarar]

That was the intended implication. I guess Machiavelli did not pick up on that.

Gee .. I thought he missed that your tongue was pressed firmly into your cheek.

 

[Onofarar]

Bingo!!

 

[RoseMontague]

The weight isn't the only factor at issue. We are looking at an exponential decay of the body loosing heat to the environment. Tenths of a degree difference in the final body temperature or the estimated ambient temperature result in hours of difference in the estimated time of death. Yet Lalli only measured to the nearest degree. The insulation factor changes the time scale and can result in a large error yet this factor was only roughly estimated.

The ambient temperature was measured a couple of times but there was no measure of the temperature in the cottage overnight after the murder. If the heat was turned off, the whole cottage would have cooled off rapidly with the door and window open. If the heat was on, meredith's room would have gotten much hotter as the heat tried to compensate for the draft.

There are calculators online for ToD calculations based on body temperature.
Ie: http://www.swisswuff.ch/calculators/todeszeit.php

If you play with the numbers in the calculator, you soon realize how inaccurate this estimate is.

Thanks, Dan_O. I am still interested in the answer to my question if anyone has seen anything on this. However there are so many variables that you mention I am not sure it matters much. It is clear that the testimony of the experts seem to indicate they use the stomach contents to attempt to narrow this TOD down to a more precise number. What the body temperature evidence does seem to accurately indicate is (again) the general incompetence of those responsible for handling these matters.

 

[shuttlt]

Even rock solid computer logs could only provide an alibi for one person. Could his defense be going separate from hers?

If one of them has a solid alibi then I suspect they both get off, but that's just my opinion based on no great expertise. It also assumes that they stick together and the one with the alibi doesn't drop the other in it. That doesn't strike me as very likely though.

 

[Dan O.]

Unless they have evidence, like rock solid computer logs, that they were home then they have no meaningful alibi for significant parts of the evening. If they have physical evidence that they can prove that they were at home, then that trumps Curatolo. If they can't, it hardly requires any magic to suppose they might have left the house.

Why do the computer logs change the evidentiary value of Curatolo's testimony? Curatolo had no effect on the logs and the computer was not dictating Curatolo's testimony.

If the logs existed but were erased, would that have somehow made Curatolo's testimony factual?


"Might have left the house" is not good enough for a murder charge. The concept of "Presumption of Innocence" requires us to assume that Amanda and Raffaele were not present at the time of the murder. It is the prosecutions duty to prove otherwise.

 

[LondonJohn]

Even rock solid computer logs could only provide an alibi for one person. Could his defense be going separate from hers?

No. There's no way things would have got this far already, if Knox had indeed left Sollecito in his apartment that evening. What conceivable motivation would Sollecito have to take the joint rap for a murder he had nothing to do with - decades in prison versus 6 days' relationship with a temporary foreign student...

On the same subject, I also believe it's unthinkable that Sollecito - if he had nothing to do with the murder on the night of the 1st - might somehow have been persuaded to knowingly help to clean up the murder scene the following day. I can hardly imagine his girlfriend of six days rushing in breathless at 1am saying something like: "Erm, something weird just happened at my place - Rudy and I were fooling around with Meredith, but somehow she ended up stabbed to death. Would you please help me to conceal my involvement by helping me to clean up and stage a break-in in the morning?" And I can even less imagine Sollecito replying something like "Oh sure, honey. No biggie. How about a nice hot chocolate to calm you down?".....