Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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The plasma cosmology thread is thataway --->. This is the electric Sun thread. Please try to avoid derailing it.
As maybe, but since the electric sun is part of plasma cosmology it's fair game.

From Alfven's perspective that was the E component, particularly in light (atmospheric) plasmas. Here's a link to the first few chapters of Alfven's book by the way, along with a link to his opinions on this topic.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZjwoGlIxvLUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Hannes+Alfven+Cosmic+Plasma&source=bl&ots=XQJG8AfYon&sig=Ujoerr0NiBUZOA2q-ZO9a86aCs8&hl=en&ei=SGP5TKPYMougsQOn-fTxAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Hannes%20Alfven%20Cosmic%20Plasma&f=false

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14160914/...-Field-Lines-and-Field-Line-Reconnection-1976



Well in that case your "antenna" is a spinning, current carrying plasma filament like you might find in an ordinary plasma ball, but scaled to size of course. :)



I doubt I'd do his answer justice, but if you like the first few chapters of Alfven's book, PM me and I'll send you my copy so you can finish reading it for yourself.
I'll have to peruse those this weekend. Thanks.
That's partly because the variety of antenna shapes is so huge that you can find an antenna that vaguely resembles almost anything.

I know that EMI guys have their own 'special' relationship with antennas, but even I have found myself debating whether my Christmas tree is shaped more like a conical spiral or a log-periodic . . .
Well, that would depend on how you hang you lights, wouldn't it? Personally, I tend to hand the lights to recreate a yagi. :p
 
As maybe, but since the electric sun is part of plasma cosmology it's fair game.


Well so is the solid iron surface of the Sun, so it's a free-for-all!

ETA: And that claim you've made hasn't actually been supported. Looks like it's to you to demonstrate that they are the same subject. Show us the evidence that either is true, kmortis. Explain the science, quantitatively and objectively, that shows they're the same subject or integrally related. You're on.
 
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MM cites evidence that MM has been misrepresenting Alfvén

From Alfven's perspective that was the E component, particularly in light (atmospheric) plasmas. Here's a link to the first few chapters of Alfven's book by the way, along with a link to his opinions on this topic.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Zj...onepage&q=Hannes Alfven Cosmic Plasma&f=false

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14160914/...-Field-Lines-and-Field-Line-Reconnection-1976

Double Layers
in Astrophysics
Edited by
Alton C. Williams and Tauna W. Moorehead
NASA George C. Marshall Space Flight Center
Marshall Space Flight Center, Alabama
Proceedings of a workshop sponsored by
the National Aeronautics and Space Administration,
Washington, D.C., and the Universities Space Research
Association, Washington, D.C., and held at
George C. Marshall Space Right Center
Huntsville, Alabama
March 17-19, 1986
Thank you. That last citation was for Alfvén's keynote address, which kicked off a workshop he and four others had organized. The full proceedings of that workshop are available online at
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19870013880_1987013880.pdf

Note that the captions for the first three figures are permuted.

In section III.A. of his keynote address, Alfvén admits his share of the blame for introducing and promoting the "frozen-in" simplification, and admits that this simplification leads to a definition of "magnetic field line" that is at odds with Maxwell's equations. Alfvén also writes:
Alfvén said:
If the current system which produced the field changes, the magnetic field changes and field lines can merge or reconnect.
Alfvén followed that sentence with several technical observations that could easily be misinterpreted by someone who is unfamiliar with Maxwell's equations or with the mathematics of time-varying vector fields. His real point, however, is that he had come to believe that his "frozen-in" simplification had become an impediment to progress.

In section III.B., which Michael Mozina quoted in its entirety, Alfvén explains that his "frozen-in" simplification leads to absurd results when magnetic reconnection is modelled by "merging" of frozen-in magnetic field lines. My reading of that section is that Alfvén felt guilty about his role in promoting the "frozen-in" model, was dismayed by its continuing popularity, and used this keynote address as an opportunity to denounce the textbooks and papers that had attempted to model magnetic reconnection using the broken model that Alfvén had formerly promoted.

That interpretation is supported by the other paper to which Michael Mozina has drawn our attention. Its abstract:
Alfvén said:
It is shown that `frozen-in magnetic field lines' and `magnetic field-line reconnection' are unnecessary and often misleading concepts.
That may sound like a rejection of magnetic reconnection, but it is only a rejection of the broken concept of magnetic reconnection that is based on the misleadingly simplifying notion of frozen-in magnetic field lines. It is not a rejection of magnetic reconnection with respect to the magnetic field lines of Maxwell's equations. You can see how someone who doesn't understand Maxwell's equations might have been misled by that abstract.

Consider the first sentence of section 2:
Alfvén said:
Much of the discussion of magnetospheric theories is centered on the stationary state, and we shall confine ourselves to this (Figure 1).
If you understand Maxwell's equations, you know that magnetic reconnection cannot occur within a stationary state. Alfvén understood that:
Alfvén said:
In the stationary state we consider, both the electric and the magnetic fields are static. We can depict the magnetic field by drawing the magnetic field lines (Figure 1), but it should be observed that a magnetic field line has the Maxwellian meaning. It is a line which everywhere has the direction of the magnetic field. To ask whether a field line `moves' or not has no sense....
Note that Alfvén has taken the trouble to say quite explicitly that he is now talking about Maxwellian field lines, not the counter-Maxwellian field lines he had condemned in his keynote address. You can see how someone who doesn't understand the mathematics could misinterpret such passages as a claim that magnetic reconnection cannot ever occur.

These last few quotations are from

Hannes Alfvén. On frozen-in field lines and field-line reconnection. Journal of Geophysical Research 81(22), August 1, 1976, pages 4019ff.
 
Note that Alfvén has taken the trouble to say quite explicitly that he is now talking about Maxwellian field lines, not the counter-Maxwellian field lines he had condemned in his keynote address. You can see how someone who doesn't understand the mathematics could misinterpret such passages as a claim that magnetic reconnection cannot ever occur.


So it would show a serious misunderstanding of Alfvén's work, and/or possibly dishonesty, to suggest Alfvén took the position that magnetic reconnection doesn't exist.
 
You two are taking this denial thing to new heights....

Let's recap shall we?

B. Magnetic Merging — A Pseudo-Science Since then I have stressed in a large number of papers the danger of using the frozen-in concept. For example, in a paper "Electric Current Structure of the Magnetosphere" (Alfvén, 1975), I made a table showing the difference between the real plasma and "a fictitious medium" called "the pseudo-plasma," the latter having frozen in magnetic field lines moving with the plasma. The most important criticism of the "merging" mechanism of energy transfer is due to Heikkila (1973) who with increasing strength has demonstrated that it is wrong. In spite of all this, we have witnessed at the same time an enormously voluminous formalism building up based on this obviously erroneous concept. Indeed, we have been burdened with a gigantic pseudo-science which penetrates large parts of cosmic plasma physics. The monograph CP treats the field-line reconnection (merging) concept in 1.3, 11.3, and 11.5. We may conclude that anyone who uses the merging concepts states by implication that no double layers exist.
A new epoch in magnetospheric physics was inaugurated by L. Lyons and D. Williams' monograph (1985). They treat magnetospheric phenomena systematically by the particle approach and demonstrate that the fluid dynamic approach gives erroneous results. The error of the latter approach is of a basic character. Of course there can be no magnetic merging energy transfer.
I was naive enough to believe that such a pseudo-science would die by itself in the scientific community, and I concentrated my work on more pleasant problems. To my great surprise the opposite has occurred; the "merging" pseudo-science seems to be increasingly powerful. Magnetospheric physics and solar wind physics today are no doubt in a chaotic state, and a major reason for this is that some of the published papers are science and part pseudoscience, perhaps even with a majority for the latter group.

In those parts of solar physics which do not deal with the interior of the Sun and the dense photospheric region (fields where the frozen-in concept may be valid), the state is even worse. It is difficult to find theoretical papers on the low density regions which are correct. The present state of plasma astrophysics seems to be almost completely isolated from the new concepts of plasma which the in situ measurements on space plasma have made necessary (see Section VIII).

I sincerely hope that the increased interest in the study of double layers — which is fatal to this pseudoscience — will change the situation. Whenever we find a double layer (or any other E ll # 0) we hammer a nail into the coffin of the "merging" pseudo-science.

Give me a break!
 
Ok Mr. Spock,

Cite a REAL EXPERIMENT for kmortis where "magnetic reconnection/merging" is actually occurring that is not an example of pseudoscience, where *NO* double layers exist, and that involve *NO* pinches in plasma.


Actually the claim is that electrical discharges are or are the cause of solar flares and CMEs. It is despicably dishonest to ask other people, people who didn't make that claim, to support it or to provide alternative explanations. Apparently the claim is unsupportable.
 
Let's recap shall we?

Give me a break!
I guess I should thank you for proving my point. When you read Alfvén, all you see are the words and phrases you highlighted, without any understanding of the context.

For those who care about context, here are a couple of paragraphs from the section that leads into the one Michael Mozina quoted:
Alfvén said:
III. DOUBLE LAYERS AND FROZEN-IN MAGNETIC FIELD LINES

A. Frozen-In Field Lines --- A Pseudo-Pedagogical Concept

In Cosmological Electrodynamics, I tried to give a survey of a field in which I had been active for about two decades. In one of the chapters, I treated magnetohydrodynamic waves. I pointed out that in an infinitely conductive magnetized fluid the magnetic field lines could be considered as "frozen" into the medium --- under certain conditions --- and this concept made it possible to treat the waves as oscillations of the frozen-in medium.

The "frozen-in" picture of magnetic field lines differs from Maxwell's views. He defined a magnetic field line as a line which everywhere is parallel to the magnetic field. If the current system which produced the field changes, the magnetic field changes and field lines can merge or reconnect....

I thought that the frozen-in concept was very good from a pedagogical point of view, and indeed it became very popular. In reality, however, it was not a good pedagogical concept but a dangerous "pseudo-pedagogical concept." By pseudo-pedagogical I mean a concept which makes you believe that you understand a phenomenon whereas in reality you have drastically misunderstood it.
And so on. Alfvén is apologizing for his role in promoting the frozen-in concept and the non-Maxwellian concept of magnetic field lines that goes with it. In the next section, which Michael Mozina has now quoted twice, Alfvén attacks the non-Maxwellian concept of magnetic merging he had inadvertently promoted.

Ironic, isn't it? In attempting to undo the damage he had done to his field, Alfvén condemned the results of his own previous approach as pseudoscience, writing words that Michael Mozina and other hobbyists would later interpret as a condemnation of the legitimate Maxwellian concepts of magnetic field lines and magnetic reconnection.
 
Ironic, isn't it? In attempting to undo the damage he had done to his field, Alfvén condemned the results of his own previous approach as pseudoscience, writing words that Michael Mozina and other hobbyists would later interpret as a condemnation of the legitimate Maxwellian concepts of magnetic field lines and magnetic reconnection.


Sort of like linking to that paper by Lee which uses the words "electrical" and "discharge" but doesn't objectively support the silly electric Sun conjecture at all. And the flaw in the connection was mentioned by Lee right in the paper. It's almost like the EU/PC crackpots and the electric Sun nutters don't even read the material they wave around. They certainly don't understand it.
 
I'm still waiting for that "correct" MR paper along with an explanation of how it relates to solar flares Mr. Spock.
 
FYI, it would be nice if like the Lee paper, it showed some "similarities" to observed solar flare activities, like heavily ionized iron photons, etc.
 
IMO Alfven was trying to be nice by even INSINUATING the problem had anything to do with his work. Some folks took an abstract tool he applied to *DENSE*, *NON CURRENT CARRYING PLASMA* and attempted to apply that very same abstraction tool to *LIGHT*, CURRENT CARRYING plasmas. For a couple of decades he renounced the idea and yet folks *SLILL* wrote about it. He *ASSUMED* it would die a nature death, but the "pseudoscience" continues. That is of course unless you're abandoning the Sweet & Parker approach to "magnetic reconnection" (or anything remotely like it) because Aflven was well acquainted with that concept and rejected it.
 
IMO Alfven was trying to be nice by even INSINUATING the problem had anything to do with his work.


Or maybe Alfvén was confessing that he had made a serious blunder that could be misinterpreted by crackpots of every stripe. Too bad the old fellow has croaked and we can't ask him.
 

Er, no. That's a "math homework assignment", not a paper linking flares and "magnetic reconnection". You don't seem to grasp the "show and tell" part of the discussion. When asked to provide evidence between a link between discharges and solar flares I provided this paper (among many others):

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html

Notice how Lee studies *LABORATORY* phenomenon (not computer models), and demonstrates a number of physical links/similarities between laboratory discharges and solar flares in terms of iron ion wavelengths observed in flares?

That's what I'm looking for from your side of the aisle. I'm looking for a published, peer reviewed paper that shows some sort of physical connection between *LABORATORY* examples of "magnetic reconnection" that produce flare like effects that we observe in solar flares. Do you have such a thing? We know from Tim that no experiments link gamma rays and "magnetic reconnection" the way they are associated with discharges. Is there however *ANY* link whatsoever between *LAB TESTS* of 'magnetic reconnection' and solar events, yes or no?

Keep in mind that Alfven put some further constraints on your model. No double layers can be involved and since you deny your "magnetic lines" are nothing more than "pinched currents", you'll need an example of magnetic reconnection in the lab that doesn't involve pinched currents too.
 
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Er, no. That's a "math homework assignment", not a paper linking flares and "magnetic reconnection". You don't seem to grasp the "show and tell" part of the discussion. When asked to provide evidence between a link between discharges and solar flares I provided this paper (among many others):

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html

Notice how Lee studies *LABORATORY* phenomenon (not computer models), and demonstrates a number of physical links/similarities between laboratory discharges and solar flares in terms of iron ion wavelengths observed in flares?

That's what I'm looking for from your side of the aisle. I'm looking for a published, peer reviewed paper that shows some sort of physical connection between *LABORATORY* examples of "magnetic reconnection" that produce flare like effects that we observe in solar flares. Do you have such a thing? We know from Tim that no experiments link gamma rays and "magnetic reconnection" the way they are associated with discharges. Is there however *ANY* link whatsoever between *LAB TESTS* of 'magnetic reconnection' and solar events, yes or no?

Keep in mind that Alfven put some further constraints on your model. No double layers can be involved and since you deny your "magnetic lines" are nothing more than "pinched currents", you'll need an example that doesn't involved pinched currents too.


Of course, as has been pointed out many, many times, it is a dishonest argument to ask other people to propose alternatives to a crackpot claim. Apparently dishonesty is one of the fall-back strategies of the cranks when there isn't any legitimate scientific support for an inane claim.

So the question still remains: Is there any scientific, quantitative, objective support for the claim that electrical discharges are, or are the cause of, solar flares and CMEs? The answer so far seems to be, "No."
 
The very first link above cites an important paper that suggested a link between flares and magnetic reconnection. Your inability to discuss that or any other paper that links flares to magnetic reconnection is explained in some detail by the three JREF posts whose URLs appear above. Because there may still be some readers of this thread who are more interested in reading about the science than in seeing you demonstrate yet again why you cannot, I will ignore the rest of your dodge.

Here are full citations for three scientific papers that have helped to develop the possible link between solar flares and magnetic reconnection:

R.A.Kopp and G.W.Pneuman. Magnetic reconnection in the corona and the loop prominence phenomenon. Solar Physics 50 (1976), 85-98.
http://www.springerlink.com/index/Q64134U3U72Q3664.pdf

P.J.Cargill and E.R.Priest. Slow-shock heating and the Kopp-Pneuman model for `post'-flare loops. Solar Physics 76 (1982), 357-375.
http://www.springerlink.com/index/U6R4R74576430513.pdf

D.S.Spicer, D.Sibeck, B.J.Thompson, and J.M.Davila. A Kopp-Pneuman-like picture of coronal mass ejections. The Astrophysical Journal 643(2), 2006 June 1, 1304-1316.
doi: 10.1086/503274
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/643/2/1304
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/643/2/1304/pdf/0004-637X_643_2_1304.pdf

All three of those papers were published in peer-reviewed journals. I do not pretend to be an expert on solar physics, or a physicist of any description, but it seems to me that those three papers explain why solar physicists have come to regard magnetic reconnection as a key mechanism in solar flares and coronal mass ejections (CMEs). From the introduction to the most recent of those papers:
Spicer said:
The reader will note that we use the term "picture" as opposed to "model."...Most of what we call CME and flare models are heuristic "cartoons" or more politely "pictures" of what we believe is occurring....Even our CME numerical models are not really models, but numerical experiments, because (1) many are 2.5-dimensional, that is, two components of velocity and three components of the magnetic field computed on a two-dimensional mesh; (2) both the initial and boundary conditions are chosen to test a hypothesis, not because data define them; and (3) many critical pieces of physics are missing that are essential if the numerical results are to be validated against empirical data....
In short, the current picture falls short of the mathematical rigor we would expect of a full model. (It should be obvious that a hypothetical hobbyist who's stymied by even the most elementary mathematical prerequisites of the current picture is not going to contribute to its further development into a proper model.) In section 3, the authors of that most recent paper summarize their contributions:
Spicer said:
Our picture of CMEs and large flares utilizes the basic geometry utilized by Kopp & Pneuman (1976).... We expand on their picture in three fundamental ways. First we allow for three-dimensional reconnection; second, we utilize reconnection only as a mechanism to release stresses in the magnetic field configuration...; and third, the acceleration of particles is a direct result of the bulk plasma flows that result from the reconnection process, the structure of the magnetic field configuration into which the accelerated plasma flows, and the restructuring of the magnetic fields made permissible by reconnection.
Lest some hypothetical hobbyist complain that these scientists are ignoring Alfvén or MHD, note that Alfvén is mentioned 12 times in that paper, and MHD is mentioned 19 times.
 
I haven't been through the second two links yet, but the first one does not appear to be related to a *LABORATORY* experiment per se. Some of the others may in fact provide such info. Nevertheless, I have two initial question for you about the first paper.

A) What is an "open" field line?

B) How is a "magnetic flux tube" not a "Bennett Pinch/Magnetic Rope/Pinched filament/circuit" as Alfven describes them?
 
The second paper doesn't seem to involve laboratory experiments either.
However, if the velocity of shock propagation approaches the Alfvén speed, then temperatures of 10^8 K are produced.

Produced in a lab, or produced in their computer simworld?
 
First Quesion on the third paper:
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/643/2/1304

In addition, we discuss betatron acceleration during the dipolarization process that occurs when the flux rope/CME is ejected and how the hot particles generated during the dipolarization process can lead to traps in solar loops, thereby helping to explain long-duration events.

Same question applies in terms of the "flux rope". How is it not a "Bennett Pinch/current flow/yada, yada, yada"?
 
The current sheet in a helmet streamer–like magnetic field configuration reconnects,....

IOW it's the "current flow" that "reconnects", and since current flows do the work, it's the "circuits" that reconnect, not the "magnetic lines".

Virtually every single one of your links relies upon a "magnetic flux rope/tube". How did you intend to avoid those double layers nails in the "reconnection" coffin when you're starting with a "Bennett Pinch" inside of a 'current carrying' medium??????

Oy Vey.
 
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