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Has consciousness been fully explained?

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This thread is about the brain and consciousness, right? You don't see how talking about the physical characteristics of the brain and how it functions is relevant?

Of course I do, but it has to be a bit more focused than "explain how the brain works".

I would love nothing more than to banish all discussions of computers from threads about consciousness and focus entirely on the brain.
 
See westprog's discussion of why a simulation of a power plant control system can't be hooked up to the power station and actually run it. See also my discussion of Guy as opposed to rocketdodger's flawed thought experiment which attempts to assert the equivalent of the assertion that westprog is wrong.

I don't have to go through posts doing that. Not needed.

I have a real example of software replace a physical machine. This isn't some thought experiment. In some cases, you CAN have software replace hardware.

Some argument by you or Westprog isn't going to invalidate my very real example of a program that simulates the hardware of a SNES and runs SNES games (heck, the plastic of the cartridge is even simulated).
 
Of course I do, but it has to be a bit more focused than "explain how the brain works".

I would love nothing more than to banish all discussions of computers from threads about consciousness and focus entirely on the brain.

Alright, then where do you think is the relative starting point regarding the brain for that discussion?
 
I have a real example of software replace a physical machine. This isn't some thought experiment. In some cases, you CAN have software replace hardware.

Are you sure this isn't simply a redundant system?
 
Alright, then where do you think is the relative starting point regarding the brain for that discussion?

I would start with the recent deep brain probe results. Also split brain studies. Lots of studies that probe the boundaries between conscious and non-conscious perception. Studies investigating resource use. Studies demonstrating the functions of schema.

There's quite a lot to hash out.

It would require its own thread.

In fact, I think we should dedicate a thread to it.
 
I would start with the recent deep brain probe results. Also split brain studies. Lots of studies that probe the boundaries between conscious and non-conscious perception. Studies investigating resource use. Studies demonstrating the functions of schema.

There's quite a lot to hash out.

It would require its own thread.

In fact, I think we should dedicate a thread to it.

This thread is all about it. I think it can handle such a discussion.

Don't you think such studies would make a lot more sense with a grounding in how components of the brain work though?
 
This thread is all about it. I think it can handle such a discussion.

Don't you think such studies would make a lot more sense with a grounding in how components of the brain work though?

Yes, but we can't get to that with as-yet unanswerable (and perhaps ultimately nonsensical) questions such as "how does the brain work".

I mean, would you think to ask "how does the body work?"

Where does one start?

If you're asking "how does the brain produce consciousness?" the answer is "nobody knows", which ends the discussion.
 
Yes. The Super Nintendo hardware was a completely different architecture both for the central processing unit and for video.

What I mean is, have you actually made the machinery do something it wasn't already doing? Isn't the machinery simply doing what machinery does anyway?
 
That's already been explained.

In any case, your thought experiment is a dead end.

You might as well try to counteract the assertion that there's no Santa Claus by proposing the thought experiment "As it turns out, I am Santa Claus, posting from the North Pole...."


I would counteract that assertion by saying that I disbelieve you because I think it would require magical/non-physical elements for it to be true.

If you disbelieve a perfect simulation of the human brain would produce consciousness, then you think there's something else going on as well and consciousness isn't just what the brain does.
 
Yes, but we can't get to that with as-yet unanswerable (and perhaps ultimately nonsensical) questions such as "how does the brain work".

I mean, would you think to ask "how does the body work?"

Where does one start?

If you're asking "how does the brain produce consciousness?" the answer is "nobody knows", which ends the discussion.

How does the body work?

I'd probably start talking about what cells are, what types there are, how they work, how they work together to form organs. Then various systems of organs the body has, such as the digestive system, immune system, cardiovascular system, endocrine systems, bones, muscles, skin, etc. Then we'd go over how they worked and interacted. That would be a starting point.

Obviously describing the fundamental mechanics of the brain isn't that hard starting with neurons, glial cells, etc. How they interact with each other, the blood-brain barrier and how the brain is powered. How the brain is connected to other parts of the body and the nature of those connections. Then you'd talk about the more gross features such as how various parts of the brain have specialized functions and what those functions are. But well before you got to that, it would certainly be clear that the brain is essentially the processing center of the body.

That said, I think as far as consciousness is concerned, understanding the various cells in the brain is certainly important to a discussion. This is because since we don't know a lot how consciousness comes about, it is important to have a foundation to understand emergence theory, dualism (which I personally think is total garbage), some sort of specialized location, and other ideas. I think we could largely avoid any sort of depth to a conversation about what different parts of the brain do, but understanding how the brain is a network of neurons among other things is certainly critical, imho.
 
What I mean is, have you actually made the machinery do something it wasn't already doing? Isn't the machinery simply doing what machinery does anyway?

You're going to have to be clearer with the question. The machinery in a modern computer can't normally run SNES games, since that system had totally different hardware. Emulators are literally programmed to simulate that hardware.
 
Here's another little peek into reality, and how it differs from sims.

Let's say I want to teach my son about the interrelationships involved in seal populations in the wild.

We use a computer to simulate this.

We start out very simply. We just have numbers representing seal populations, the populations of various species of fish, the number of fishermen and their harvests, the temperature of the ocean, and so forth.

We set up the relationships, and we can see how the seal populations fluctuate depending on the fish populations, predation, environmental conditions, and such.

It's just numbers, but I can tell my son which numbers stand for what, and we can see how it all works.

My son gets enthusiastic about it, and over time we ramp up the details. We introduce very detailed information about ocean currents, disease in the fish, even how employment rates cause the number of fishermen to change, and even down to how shortages in raw materials cause some boats to be added to the mix or taken out.

We go on from there, adding graphics, making it holographic in fact, representing everything in the system right down to the cellular level. We add projectors and you can actually step into this world and it's as real as if you were there.

In this simulation, there are numbers representing the molecules in each component. It's mind-bogglingly complex. It's so accurate that you can use it to make predictions about the real world.

And yet, despite all this, the computer that's running the sim never catches a fish, never swims, never gets divorced when a collapse of the fish population puts it out of a job, never lobbies Congress for a change in regulations, never freezes in winter.

In other words, the behavior of the computer continues to be computery -- never fishy, never watery, never windy, never sealy, never boaty, never fishermany.

Why? Because we haven't changed the computer into a seal. Or anything else.

We get tired of this eventually, and decide to look into the human body.

We begin with numbers representing blood pressure, height, weight, heart rate, and all sorts of other things.

Over time, we get more and more detailed, until there's nothing we can't know about our simulated human.

But the mechanism of the computer never gets a blood pressure, never runs through a shopping mall to catch up with its dad, never does anything that a human actually does... including being conscious.

There simply is no magical miracle moment at which a sim becomes sufficiently detailed that the machine running the sim stops acting like a machine running a sim and starts acting like the things which we imagine when we look at the outputs of the sim.

And that's why you can't get a machine to be conscious unless you build it to do the same physical stuff that makes a human being conscious.

You can't program your way into it.

There's no reason why there can't be conscious machines. But there's no such thing as a conscious program.

I wonder if you'll ever stop thinking that people disagreeing with you expect computers to turn into water or animals or something. It's almost annoying as debating a creationist who thinks you really expect dogs to give birth to cats. I'm not trying to compare you to a creationist, I'm just expressing frustration.

I agree that if you choose to program a simulation of diseases, water currents, environmental conditions, blood pressure, and heart rate that you will not produce a program that acts conscious, because consciousness is not something that diseases, water currents, environmental conditions, blood pressure, and heart rates do.

Now, if you did the same thing with an accurate simulation of a seal's brain, or a fishes brain, you will have created a duplicate of whatever passes for consciousness in a seal or a fish, because that is what consciousness is - the brain at work.

That's what this argument boils down to. What do you think consciousness is? Do you think it's along the lines of soul-based dualism or is it the functioning of the brain? If you believe the first, then certainly a conscious simulation is impossible. If you believe the second, then in a perfect simulation of the brain, consciousness is inevitable.
 
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You're going to have to be clearer with the question. The machinery in a modern computer can't normally run SNES games, since that system had totally different hardware. Emulators are literally programmed to simulate that hardware.

I like this one.
 
Now, if you did the same thing with an accurate simulation of a seal's brain, or a fishes brain, you will have created a duplicate of whatever passes for consciousness in a seal or a fish, because that is what consciousness is - the brain at work.

A simulation is not a duplicate.
 
A simulation is not a duplicate.

That's half the sentence. You need to add the word "of" followed by which word you're referring to, and then you will be right or wrong.

If you said it's not a duplicate of the brain, then you'd be correct. If you said it's not a duplicate of consciousness, you're be incorrect.
 
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You have to go back to my thought experiment with Guy.

The computer can't take the place of the brain, because a computer does physically what a computer does not what a brain does.

[ETA: See westprog's recent re-posting of the example of the power plant.]

The brain is a chunk of matter. You can replace it with a functional model, sure.

But that functional model has to be able to carry out all the physical actions of the brain in 4-D spacetime, just as a functional model of a leg has to be able to do the same.

You can't get that through programming.


Why not?

Of course you can't get it through programming alone -- meaning the abstraction that is the program doesn't do anything itself. But the program is just our way of interacting with machine code to make the machine do what we want it to do. What is the barrier to creating a program that causes the computer to perform the same actions that a brain performs?
 
There's no reason why there can't be conscious machines. But there's no such thing as a conscious program.


I'm going to skip over the rest because we've been over that ground several times.

Who ever said there was going to be a conscious program? If someone made that argument they are wrong because the program is just a set of instructions that help to control the machine. I suspect, if the argument was made, that what the person meant was that a program could create consciousness -- it could direct an actual physical being (a computer) to become conscious.

Once again, I'll use the bottom-up, top-down analogy. Brains work because neurons are set in place by various factors. The flow of 'electricity' and information in brains is determined by where neurons are and how they link together. Those rules are set bottom-up. The function of the brain, through the way that the neurons are placed and linked together, can produce consciousness. We know that is true.

All that a program does is help direct the opening and closing of logical gates and direct the flow of electrons. What is the barrier to a program being able to direct the flow of electrons and open logic gates in a way that functionally duplicates the flow of 'electricity' and information in a brain?
 
That doesn't change that fact that as far as we know, everything can be described by mathematics.

No, as far as we know, lots of human experience cannot be described by mathematics. Some events we know to be inherently unpredictable, and describable only in probabilistic terms. A belief that mathematics will be able to describe everything is just pure faith.

So the things that we can describe by mathematics can be described by mathematics? How does that prove that the things that cannot be described by mathematics are able to be so described in principle?
 
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