Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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Nothing in that article supports the claim that electrical discharges are, or are the cause of, solar flares and CMEs.

Again, this is your own strawman. It is *YOUR* claim that *NO* discharge processes occur in solar flares. You are wrong.


This has already been discussed and understood by all the other participants in this conversation. The quote from the article would be properly interpreted as this...

Pinches occur naturally in (electrical discharges such as lightning bolts,[6]) (the aurora,[7]) (current sheets,[8]) and (solar flares.[9])


It has been rejected as support for the electrical discharge CME claim. It is a poorly assembled phrase that only EU/PC crackpots, and perhaps a handful of others wholly unqualified to understand the science involved, would misinterpret to mean electrical discharges are, or are the cause of, solar flares and CMEs.

Notably the reference source does, however, support the consensus opinion that magnetic reconnection is responsible for solar flares.
 
Bruce refuted:

Got a link to a paper where gamma rays were created by "magnetic reconnection" in a lab Tim? You've always been such a great source of info on such topics. You seem to be dismissing "discharges" as an option based on this specific criticism as I understand it:

Electric discharge, as I understand the words, is not physically reasonable. In order to have "electric discharge", you have to mechanically separate charges to build up a strong electric field (that's what Bruce tries to do). Then you get breakdown and discharge arcs. Then you have to do it all over again. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between that scenario and a perpetual motion machine. If the energy we see is all supposed to come from the discharges, then where does the energy come from, and what is the mechanism, that produces charge separation in the first place? And since you are separating charges in an electrically conductive environment, how do you prevent quick discharge, and manage to build up strong electric fields?

Alfven handles that by suggesting it's connected to different points on the photosphere and the movements of plasma around the footprints continues and therefore continues to generate the charge.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1963IAUS...16...35
 
No mention of electrical discharges.
[/B]Just [/COLOR]plasma discharges and the discharge currents used to create the plasma.
The abstract mentions discharges.

The introduction makes it clear that they are talking about plasma discharges

Split hairs much? What point are you attempting to make? A discharge is a discharge is a discharge.

I'd like some confirmation that you actually read the paper RC. What ONE x-ray emission difference between their discharge experiments and solar flare knowledge at the time did he discuss in that paper, and is that still true today?

A continued insistence on thinking that this paper is about electrical discharges is evidence of a "denial process".

Your denial that electricity was involved in the discharge is the "denial process" RC. :)
 
Split hairs much? What point are you attempting to make? A discharge is a discharge is a discharge.
A dam discharges water: Is that an electrical discharge?
A plasma discharge is not an electrical discharge

I'd like some confirmation that you actually read the paper RC. What ONE x-ray emission difference between their discharge experiments and solar flare knowledge at the time did he discuss in that paper, and is that still true today?
That is way silly - read the post where I quote the introduction. But just in case here it is again:
Solar-flare and laboratory plasma phenomena (1974)
No mention of electrical discharges.
Just
plasma discharges and the discharge currents used to create the plasma.
The abstract mentions discharges.

The introduction to the paper makes it clear that they are talking about plasma discharges
As reported here, a simple laboratory plasma discharge, which is believed to have a number of phenomenological similarities with solar flares, has been studied in order to demonstrate that some of the physical processes involved could be common to both cases.

But I'd like some confirmation that you actually read the paper Michael Mozina. What ONE x-ray emission difference between their discharge experiments and solar flare knowledge at the time did Tong Nyong Lee discuss in that paper, and is that still true today?

Your denial that electricity was involved in the discharge is the "denial process" RC. :)
My ability to read the paper and see that they are talking plasma discharges is basic reading comprehension - not denial. I also can comprehend that electricity was used to create the plasma discharges.
 
Really!

Read the atricles: These are about the creation of plasma , IOW discharges of plasma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc
An electric arc is an electrical breakdown of a gas which produces an ongoing plasma discharge, resulting from a current flowing through normally nonconductive media such as air.
(emphasis added)
One more time: Plasma is a conductive media. Thus an electric arc or electrical discharge is by definition impossible in a plasma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glow_discharge
An electric glow discharge is a plasma formed by the passage of current at 100 V to several kV through a gas at low pressure, such as argon or another noble gas.
(emphasis added)

Here is an example. Note that the creation of the plasma is called a discharge.
Tokamak Plasma discharge
Prior to the discharge there is a high vacuum of 10-8 millibar in the vacuum vessel. First the external magnetic field is built up and the current started up in the transformer coil. Shortly before the discharge is initiated, hydrogen gas is admitted to the vessel, whereupon the pressure rises to a few 10-5 millibar. The transformer is then discharged; i.e. the current is slowly reduced. In this way a peripheral voltage of about 10 volts is induced, which triggers the discharge: The hydrogen gas is ionised – it transforms into a plasma built up by feedback-controlled adjustment of the plasma position, plasma cross-section, and plasma current. In keeping with the current rise, the plasma density is brought to the required value by gas intake. Once plasma heating has commenced, the actual experiments then proceed in the state with constant plasma current that has now set in.
(emphasis added)
So to create the plsama there is
  1. the discharge of the transformer (electrical discharge) followed by
  2. the creation of the plasma: the plasma discharge.
 
Hoy Vey!

RC the *ELECTRON FLOW* is what ionizes the elements! The arc sustains an ongoing PLASMA DISCHARGE!
 
An electric arc is an electrical breakdown of a gas which produces an ongoing plasma discharge, resulting from a current flowing through normally nonconductive media such as air. A synonym is arc discharge.

Which part in yellow do you not understand RC?
 
Which part in yellow do you not understand RC?
All of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc
An electric arc is an electrical breakdown of a gas which produces an ongoing plasma discharge, resulting from a current flowing through normally nonconductive media such as air.
Which part in yellow do you not understand MM?
This is an electrical discharge through normally non-conductive media creating plasma. The technical term for creating plasma in such a manner is a plasma discharge.
I know MM: it is confusing to have
  • an electrical discharge through an non-conductive media and
  • the plasma created by that electrical discharge called a plasma discharge.
But you will just have to live with it.
 
Electric Sun & Magnetic Reconnection I

Got a link to a paper where gamma rays were created by "magnetic reconnection" in a lab Tim? You've always been such a great source of info on such topics.
No, but then again, so what? You fall victim to the extreme logical fallacy that anything which cannot be recreated exactly in a laboratory cannot be an example of valid empirical science. On that point, as has been exhaustively pointed out in the past, you are dead wrong (e.g., What is "Empirical" Science? III). The universe at large, and the astrophysical systems in it are far larger than any laboratory could possibly be. The universe at large, and the astrophysical systems in it are capable of far larger energies than any laboratory could ever generate or contain. Therefore it is a logical necessity that the universe at large, and the astrophysical systems in it can and will generate phenomena which cannot possibly exist in any conceivable Earth-based laboratory. It is therefore not relevant whether or not magnetic reconnection generates gamma rays in a lab.

It is relevant that magnetic reconnection has actually been observed in Earth-based laboratory experiments (e.g., Comments on Magnetic Reconnection III), a fact which you brazenly continue to deny, which says more about the relationship between you and ignorance personified, than anything else. It is relevant that accelerated charged particles will emit electromagnetic radiation, as a necessary consequence of the laws of physics. And it is relevant that, given a high enough acceleration, those charged particles will emit gamma rays. We have been over all of this before, and on this point you remain steadfastly as wrong now as you were then, and will always be.

You seem to be dismissing "discharges" as an option based on this specific criticism as I understand it:
Electric discharge, as I understand the words, is not physically reasonable. In order to have "electric discharge", you have to mechanically separate charges to build up a strong electric field (that's what Bruce tries to do). Then you get breakdown and discharge arcs. Then you have to do it all over again. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between that scenario and a perpetual motion machine. If the energy we see is all supposed to come from the discharges, then where does the energy come from, and what is the mechanism, that produces charge separation in the first place? And since you are separating charges in an electrically conductive environment, how do you prevent quick discharge, and manage to build up strong electric fields?
Alfven handles that by suggesting it's connected to different points on the photosphere and the movements of plasma around the footprints continues and therefore continues to generate the charge.
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1963IAUS...16...35
Once again, you are entirely wrong. Alfven is talking about electric currents, not electric discharges. Bruce talks about electric discharges as a result of friction between dust particles, and Bruce's argument is absolute garbage that violates the laws of physics with gusto & determination. As for the electric currents, neither I nor the standard model of solar physics have any problem with electric currents flowing throughout the photosphere of the sun and above. Indeed, electric currents are a necessary requirement of the standard model.

Bruce and his work can be dispensed with as a joke pure & simple. Alfven was right that electric currents flow in the sun, but his manner of describing them is not well suited for modern plasma physics, which is far more complicated than anything Alfven dealt with. But you don't accept Alfven anyway, so why do you even bother with him? It is the primary claim of the electric sun theory that nuclear reactions inside the sun are either a minor source of energy, or absent altogether, and that the sun is powered by electric currents flowing into the sun from the outside. It is crucial to point out that this electric sun hypothesis is not consistent with anything Alfven ever said or did. So, if you accept the electric sun, then as a necessary logical consequence, you must reject Alfven. Likewise, if you accept Alfven, then you must reject both the electric sun, and in particular everything from Bruce. Make up your mind.

I stand fast by the conclusion I voiced over a year ago:
It makes far better physical sense to realize that magnetic reconnection will transfer a great deal of kinetic energy directly to the plasma, and that Faraday's Law will also generate strong (but temporary) electric fields as a result of the ubiquitous and unavoidable dynamo magnetic fields in the photosphere. This completely avoids all of the physical difficulties related to discharge mechanisms, is all completely consistent with known basic physics, and is all completely consistent with the wide variety of observed properties of the sun.

In short, the mainstream models work well and make physical sense, whereas the electrical discharge mechanism does not work and does not make physical sense. Hence, unless you can come up with far stronger arguments than you have managed to muster thus far, I will stick to the mainstream.
 
Alright, I was just trying to clarify and understand what you meant. Wouldn't their longevity be related to the source and stability of the current flow to some degree?

the longevity of current carrying DLs depends on the current, their strength, possible instabilities in the plasme, etc. etc. etc.
 
Um, essentially what you're saying is that the path of least resistance is to "go with the flow" (of the filament).

no not "go with the flow" but "go along the field whilst gyrating around it"

Ok, but when Alfven discusses and quantifies the energy transfer process he discusses and includes the energy of the whole circuit(s).

All kinds of plasma behaviour, especially magnetic loops that have currents flow along them can be represented by a circuit representation which consist of a battery V, a resistor R, a capacitance C, a possible double layer DL (with the foot of the L pointing in the direction of the current). Now, this gives a very global description of the system, the long wavelength approximation. You just throw away all the plasma physics that is in there and replace it with a resistivity and a battery and a capacitance, and you forget about the small scale stuff, like plasma waves, wave-particle interactions etc etc, everything that is small on the scale size of the magnetic loop is combined in the global parameters V, R and C.

And yes, you can find the energy of that circuit, and what could be released by some process, however that process will be too small to be described by the circuit representation.

Not every element or molecule is ionized in the solar atmosphere. That's all I meant. Then again that filament is "dark" for a reason.

The mainstream definition of dust is not just not ionized elements of molecules, there is a size definition, and non-ionized atoms and simple molecules are much (up to 2 orders of magnitude) smaller than the size of dust. This has been pointed out to you before (by myself and others) but appparently, you don't want to accept this.
 
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