Electric universe theories here.

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Been there. Done that. You didn't listen then any better than you're listening to sane, intelligent people correct your foolishness now.

What have you "corrected" about these images here in this thread now? You're acting like a child and avoiding the images entirely, just like a big chicken
Edited by Locknar: 
Edited for breack of Rule 10
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We don't need a self professed expert. Dr. Neal Hurlburt says you're wrong. There likely isn't a higher level expert in solar imagery in the world. Let me repeat: Dr. Neal Hurlburt says you're wrong.

Oh, so one appeal to authority fallacy and I'm supposed to be impressed?

I've explained the images in detail. Every single pixel. You can't get more detailed than that. Again, your lack of ability to understand that isn't anyone's fault but your own. But for you to say that nobody has explained them, or that I haven't explained them, makes you a liar.

You did not. You handwaved away and *ABSOLUTELY IGNORED* all the details in the images. Particles in the solar atmosphere? What particles in the atmosphere? Peeling on the right side? What peeling effect on the right side. You've never personally put any serious effort into explaining the details of the images, and you never even touched Kosovichev's video. Your just a thug and a zealot who has nothing to offer in terms of actual physics, or cause and effect relationships.

And, one more time for the apparently reading impaired, your harebrained conjecture about the solid surface of the Sun isn't Electric Universe, Michael, and it's damned certain that it isn't a theory, so it really doesn't belong in this thread. If you'd like to discuss that craziness, start a thread on it.

Gee, you got hairbrained and crazy in the same paragraph. You must be so proud of yourself. Yawn. You guys really are a petty, ugly, and violent little cult. You aren't scientists. Scientists focus on observations and ideas not individuals. Scientists can agree to disagree without resorting to childish name calling. You're just sleazy, lazy and ignorant - by choice.

Please do not swear in posts, as stated in Rule 10 of your Membership Agreement.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar
 
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Completely wrong according to you or to me? I'm still waiting to see which of you (if anyone here) has the intestinal fortitude to actually sit down and explain these two images professionally and fully, down to the subtle details in each of the images. I'm looking to see you explain the *PROCESS* we observe in these images and the *CAUSES* behind these observations, down to the detailed observations in each image. You're welcome to include math if you like, but I mostly interested in hearing you physically explain these images in terms of cause, effect and specific detailed observation.

It's very clear that LMSAL *ASSUMES* that all the light in these images occur *completely* above the photosphere. How would you verify that *assumption*, and how do you explain the "persistence" and angular patterns (if you don't like rigid) of the features in that image?
Actually LMSAL dopes not assume that. The TRACE instruments just happen to be *DESIGNED* to that way:
The Transition Region and Coronal Explorer is a NASA Small Explorer (SMEX) mission to image the solar corona and transition region at high angular and temporal resolution.
FYI (since it is unlikely that you know this) - The Sun's structure above the convective region is the photosphere, then the solar atmosphere consisting of these zones (going outwards):
  • temperature minumum.
  • chromosphere
  • transition region
  • corona
  • heliosphere
 
Actually LMSAL dopes not assume that. The TRACE instruments just happen to be *DESIGNED* to that way:

They are not. They are *designed* to pick up light from specific wavelengths, three of which are highly sensitive to iron ion emissions (other elements as well) and one of which is most sensitive to helium emissions. Period! We cannot even be absolutely sure which region of the sun we're looking at based only upon temperature, particularly in Birkeland's model. In his model the coronal loops discharge across the surface and rise high into the atmosphere around the globe. We could potentially observe the whole coronal loop, from the surface (solid in Birkeland's model) through the photosphere (in Birkeland's model) and high into the corona.

Ok, I'll bite, how do you know exactly where the base of the coronal loops are located based on the design of the equipment?
 
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They are not. They are *designed* to pick up light from specific wavelengths, three of which are highly sensitive to iron ion emissions (other elements as well) and one of which is most sensitive to helium emissions. Period!
...snipped usual Birkeland hero worship...
That is correct. The instruments are "*designed* to pick up light from specific wavelengths, three of which are highly sensitive to iron ion emissions (other elements as well) and one of which is most sensitive to helium emissions.".
It just so happens that those 3 wavelengths are not issued by the photosphere (as far as I know). They are issued by Fe ions in the corona.
Corona
These spectral features have since been traced to highly ionized Iron (Fe-XIV) which indicates a plasma temperature in excess of 10^6 kelvin
TRACE has this caption for one of their images
A major solar flare produced an arcade resembling a slinky. That flare has featured here before, but this time we are showing a set of composite images that shows the thermal evolution of the material. The X5.7 flare occurred at 10:03UT on 14 July 2000, in Active Region 9077, and was observed by TRACE in three colors: the red image shows the ultraviolet continuum, generally characteristic of cool, dense gas; the blue image shows the 171Å pass band, characteristic of material around 1 million degrees; the green channel shows material hotter than about 1.5 million degrees up to approximately 10 million degrees.
The temperature of the photosphere is ~6,000 K.

Thus the TRACE image you are obsessed with is of the emission from the corona's 1,000,000 K plasma. It is not of the emission from the photosphere's 6,000 K plasma.

As far as I know (and the above quote supports this) the photosphere is invisible in the 171Å pass band. But my knowledge of stellar physics is limited (I am honest unlike you) so a real astronomer may want to comment.

I also find it strange that NASA are so incompetent to create a "Transition Region and Coronal Explorer" and not design it to exclude extraneous data from the photosphere.
 
Originally Posted by Reality Check
Michael Mozina: Have you read your own web site?
Di you know why the "mountain ranges" in your caption for the TRACE image is completely wrong?
Completely wrong according to you or to me?
Completely wrong according to your web site.
Read your web site and a few minutes of thought will tell you that describing the features of the TRACE AVI as "mountain ranges" is absurd.

If this is beyond you then here is a hint:
Mountain ranges have a basic property that excludes them from being imaged by TRACE even if they were at the 1,000,000 K that the 171Å pass band is sensitive to.
 
The TRACE web site has more information on the pass bands used in the instruments. The 173Å pass band (I assume that this is the 171Å pass band in their captions) has a width of 6.4Å and observed Fe IX at a temperture of 160,000 K to 2,000,000 K.

So all we really know with our monocular view (one viewpoint) is that whatever we're looking at probably includes iron that is highly ionized and it could be anywhere in the atmosphere. Lightening bolts here on Earth do not restrict themselves to the upper atmosphere of Earth. If we were looking at a discharge event from far away, we could not and would not automatically *assume* that this process occurred high in the Earth's atmosphere. Furthermore, we know that coronal loops do not restrict themselves to a single point in the solar atmosphere. They rise up from the base of the loop, and at times they reach well into the corona. We can't simply *assume* however that the base of the coronal loops are located in the corona.
http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010000/a010074/index.html
 
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Completely wrong according to your web site.
Read your web site and a few minutes of thought will tell you that describing the features of the TRACE AVI as "mountain ranges" is absurd.

Because it is ultimately a "running difference" image which shows change over time, and stability over time as well, it isn't absurd. That structure under Kosovichev's wave is significantly more "rigid" or "persistent" (if you prefer) than anything in the photosphere. Furthermore, we know that it is located *under* the photosphere because we can see the effect of the wave on the outline of the structure, yet that structure retains it's angular shape throughout the video. The same is true in the "physical objects" that create the reflection and emission patterns we observe in these RD images.

What we can be sure of however is that the coronal loops are generating the original photons that make up the original images. If we intend to discuss the various observations in the RD image, we all have to understand that the coronal loops are the only thing in the atmosphere that is hot enough to generate these 171A, 195A and 284A wavelengths. The plasma that emits this particular light *must be* at in the 1M to 2M degree range minimum. It also includes significant amounts of ionized iron throughout the length of the loop.

If this is beyond you then here is a hint:
Mountain ranges have a basic property that excludes them from being imaged by TRACE even if they were at the 1,000,000 K that the 171Å pass band is sensitive to.

The mountain ranges do not emit this light. They simply reflect the light in specific geometric patterns and they retain a rigid outline that does not "change over time" at the same rate as plasma. Because the surface produces fixed and angular reflection patterns, we can ultimately see the outline of many of the surface features.
 
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That is correct. The instruments are "*designed* to pick up light from specific wavelengths, three of which are highly sensitive to iron ion emissions (other elements as well) and one of which is most sensitive to helium emissions.".
It just so happens that those 3 wavelengths are not issued by the photosphere (as far as I know).

Ok, so as far as we both know, the 6K degree plasma of the photosphere does not emit these wavelengths. We also know that coronal loops do emit these wavelengths so they are very hot, and they must contain iron ions within the loop, over the whole length of the loop. Some loops certainly reach far out into the corona, so the only remaining question is where these loops originate and terminate. We need to know if they begin above or below the photosphere. Watch that NASA animation and explain to me why you believe that the loops *must necessarily* originate above the photosphere.
 
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Because it is ultimately a "running difference" image which shows change over time, and stability over time as well, it isn't absurd. That structure under Kosovichev's wave is significantly more "rigid" or "persistent" (if you prefer) than anything in the photosphere. Furthermore, we know that it is located *under* the photosphere because we can see the effect of the wave on the outline of the structure, yet that structure retains it's angular shape throughout the video. The same is true in the "physical objects" that create the reflection and emission patterns we observe in these RD images.


Except that it's been proven that you don't have the slightest idea what a running difference image is, how it's made, or what it's supposed to be showing. So your assessment is garbage.
 
Bruce, Discharge, gamma rays, solar electric & magnetic fields

Let's start here.
How do you know Bruce was wrong about his theories about these high energy events?
Reference: http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/bruce/era.htm
To start with, I simply note that Bruce does not mention gamma rays at all. So I have no idea what he thought they should look like, or even if he thought about it at all. Now, right at the top of the page Bruce says (emphasis mine) ... "The object is to show that all cosmic atmospheric phenomena can be explained as deriving from electrical discharges, resulting from the breakdown of electric fields generated by the asymmetrical impacts between dust particles, such as are effective in terrestrial electrical sand and dust storms and in thunderstorms." What, exactly is the bolded phrase supposed to mean? Does it mean literally everything that happens in the atmosphere? or does it mean only electromagnetic things that happen in the atmosphere? Or perhaps "cosmic" is supposed to refer to connections between processes in the atmosphere and processes in space? I find Bruce's very first sentence rather cryptic.

But clearly he thinks that the same dust mechanism is at the root of the sun's electrical activity, because he says so: (emphasis mine again) ... "It is thus fortunate that we are able to see the details of the sun's atmospheric structure in sunspots, and verify that it conforms to the picture which the discharge theory had led us to expect; that is, a general background atmospheric temperature of around 4,000°K in which electric fields can be built up by asymmetrical impacts between solid particles, just as occurs in terrestrial sand and dust storms and in the ejectamenta above volcanoes."

In answer to your question, I know that Bruce is wrong because his proposed mechanism for generating electric charge is not physically possible. The maximum temperature that dust grains ("solid particles") can survive is about 2000 Kelvins, half of Bruce's optimistically low 4000 Kelvin background temperature. At photospheric temperatures solid particles would be smashed apart by the high speed collisions, or broken apart by the high ultraviolet photon flux. So I will say that Bruce's hypothesis is simply impossible.

Now let us go on.

Nobody is arguing that electric currents cannot generate gamma rays. Nobody is arguing that electric currents are not responsible for some of the observed gamma rays.
Why aren't you acknowledging that it is one known and verified way to generate gamma rays around bodies in space, and therefore the most likely way the sun generates them in it's atmosphere as well?
I do acknowledge that it is one known and verified way to generate gamma rays. But there are other known and verified ways to generate gamma rays too, so why not acknowledge them as well? It is not reasonable to simply assume that all or most of the gamma rays are generated by one and only one mechanism, that's the process of trying to force nature to bow to our pre-conceptions. Rather, the reasonable thing to do is look at the gamma rays and let them tell you, by their physical characteristics (line width & line shape, band center & band width, spectral energy distribution, relative line strengths & etc.) how they were generated. Let nature lead the investigation, not prejudice.

When we do that we find that the sun generates gamma rays from all manner of sources. There is of course the ubiquitous e-/e+ annihilation line at 511 keV, the neutron capture line at 2.223 MeV, nuclear de-excitation line emission from C, O, Ne, Mg, Si, and Fe, as well as bremsstrahlung from accelerated electrons. The bremsstrahlung is the component that you would assign to "electric discharge", since the narrow line emission obviously is not.

Electric discharge, as I understand the words, is not physically reasonable. In order to have "electric discharge", you have to mechanically separate charges to build up a strong electric field (that's what Bruce tries to do). Then you get breakdown and discharge arcs. Then you have to do it all over again. It's pretty hard to tell the difference between that scenario and a perpetual motion machine. If the energy we see is all supposed to come from the discharges, then where does the energy come from, and what is the mechanism, that produces charge separation in the first place? And since you are separating charges in an electrically conductive environment, how do you prevent quick discharge, and manage to build up strong electric fields?

It makes far better physical sense to realize that magnetic reconnection will transfer a great deal of kinetic energy directly to the plasma, and that Faraday's Law will also generate strong (but temporary) electric fields as a result of the ubiquitous and unavoidable dynamo magnetic fields in the photosphere. This completely avoids all of the physical difficulties related to discharge mechanisms, is all completely consistent with known basic physics, and is all completely consistent with the wide variety of observed properties of the sun.

In short, the mainstream models work well and make physical sense, whereas the electrical discharge mechanism does not work and does not make physical sense. Hence, unless you can come up with far stronger arguments than you have managed to muster thus far, I will stick to the mainstream.
 
So all we really know with our monocular view (one viewpoint) is that whatever we're looking at probably includes iron that is highly ionized and it could be anywhere in the atmosphere. Lightening bolts here on Earth do not restrict themselves to the upper atmosphere of Earth. If we were looking at a discharge event from far away, we could not and would not automatically *assume* that this process occurred high in the Earth's atmosphere. Furthermore, we know that coronal loops do not restrict themselves to a single point in the solar atmosphere. They rise up from the base of the loop, and at times they reach well into the corona. We can't simply *assume* however that the base of the coronal loops are located in the corona.
http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010000/a010074/index.html
You still do not get it.
The 173Å pass band used in the TRACE instrument has a width of 6.4Å and observed Fe IX at a temperture of 160,000 K to 2,000,000 K.
Fe IX is generally present in the corona, not just in coronal loops.
The photosphere is too cool to be detected in the 173Å pass band.

Therefore the TRACE image is of activity in the corona - the activity leading up to a coronal mass ejection.
It is not an image of the photosphere.

One more time:
The 173Å pass band is use so that radiation from the surface of the Sun is *NOT* detected.
 
...snipped dumb stuff...
The mountain ranges do not emit this light. They simply reflect the light in specific geometric patterns and they retain a rigid outline that does not "change over time" at the same rate as plasma. Because the surface produces fixed and angular reflection patterns, we can ultimately see the outline of many of the surface features.

Your ignorance is showing yet again :jaw-dropp .
There are no mountain ranges and the light detected is not reflected.

Since it is obvious that you are not actually thinking about running difference imagery, I will put you out of your misery of ignorance:
Do what NASA does to create running difference images.
  1. Take a photo of a mountain range.
  2. Take another photo of a mountain range.
  3. Subtract the first image from the second image. The result is the first image in the running difference AVI.
  4. Continue taking photos and subtracting the previous photo.
Guess what vanishes from the first and subsequent images? The mountain range!

Running difference imagery for some reason only shows running differences!
What you see in the TRACE running difference AVI are changes in the radiation observed 173Å pass band. Any persistent structures are removed by the processing.

What you think are "mountain ranges" are actually regoins in the corona that are changing tempertaure from one frame of the AVI to another. They look structured because (I think) the temperture changes are caused by magnetic fields in the corona.

Simple enough for you?

Summary:
  • No "mountain ranges" in the TRACE running difference images.
  • The 173Å pass band is incapable of detecting radiation from the surface of the sun or below.
  • The 173Å pass band is detecting radiation from transition region and corona.
 
You still do not get it.
The 173Å pass band used in the TRACE instrument has a width of 6.4Å and observed Fe IX at a temperture of 160,000 K to 2,000,000 K.

And that tells us that coronal loops reach those temperatures. We are still left with the question of whether the coronal loops start above or below the photosphere.

Fe IX is generally present in the corona, not just in coronal loops.

The loops are the primary emitters of these wavelengths, and Thompson scattering takes place in the solar atmosphere. The corona is thinner and hotter than the photosphere, but that still says nothing about the location of the base of the loops. The Earth's atmosphere is much cooler than the Sun's atmosphere, but discharges in the Earth's atmosphere can heat plasma in the atmosphere to very high temperatures. Just because the temperature of the photosphere is 6K does not mean that discharges below the photosphere cannot heat plasma to millions of degrees. You can't simply *assume* these emissions can *only* come from the corona.

The photosphere is too cool to be detected in the 173Å pass band.

Sure, but z-pinched filaments inside that photosphere can and do reach millions of degrees. Even with NASA and LMSAL there is debate about where these loops originate and where they become visible. This animation demonstrates that these "loops" often begin far below the photosphere.

http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a010000/a010074/index.html

You seem to assume that a hot loop cannot reside inside a relatively cooler plasma. Take a look at an ordinary plasma ball and you will see that this is not so. The electron temperatures can be OOM's higher than the ambient plasma temperature.
 
And that tells us that coronal loops reach those temperatures. We are still left with the question of whether the coronal loops start above or below the photosphere.
...snipped derail into coronal loops and z-pinches...
No loops are needed. The transition zone and corona plasma are at temperatures of over 100,000 K. The 173Å pass band only includes radiation from plasma at a tempertaure of between 160,000 K and 2,000,000 K.

Thus anyone with 2 brain cells can see that detectors using the 173Å pass band
  1. Can only see light emitted from plasma from the transition zone and corona.
  2. Cannot see light emitted from anything witk a temperature less than 160,000 K, i.e. cannot see the surface of the Sun (FYI: photosphere).
On second thoughts coronal loops may be relevant.
Coronal loops populate both active and quiet regions of the solar surface. Active regions on the solar surface take up small areas but produce the majority of activity and are often the source of flares and Coronal Mass Ejections due to the intense magnetic field present
(emphasis added)
The TRACE running difference AVI includes a CME. Your "mountain ranges" could be the temperature changes in coronal loops that are the source of that CME.
 
Your ignorance is showing yet again :jaw-dropp .
Do you guys *always* feel the need to posture in every post? It gets old.

There are no mountain ranges and the light detected is not reflected.

Yes there are, yes it is.

Since it is obvious that you are not actually thinking about running difference imagery, I will put you out of your misery of ignorance:

FYI, to do that, you would need to actually deal with some of the real details of these images (like the plasma particles, peeling, ect), which of course none of you have actually done and probably never will do.

Do what NASA does to create running difference images.
  1. Take a photo of a mountain range.
  2. Take another photo of a mountain range.
  3. Subtract the first image from the second image. The result is the first image in the running difference AVI.
  4. Continue taking photos and subtracting the previous photo.
Guess what vanishes from the first and subsequent images? The mountain range!

Well that depends. The sun (and any mountains on it) rotates between images, so you're generally left with an outline of the mountain. If the lighting changes on the mountain from one image to the next, you'll also see patterns caused by these lighting changes. Coronal loops are rather dynamic and rarely stay "fixed" either in terms of position or in terms of light output.

Running difference imagery for some reason only shows running differences!

Sure, and it can also show the outline of consistent (persistent), features where light intensity varies from one image to the next.

What you see in the TRACE running difference AVI are changes in the radiation observed 173Å pass band. Any persistent structures are removed by the processing.

Again, there are many factors in play here, and the sun's atmosphere is highly dynamic. What you're saying is technically (factually) correct *IF* (and only if) all factors stayed completely consistent from one image to the next. Since that is never the case, it's never that simple.

What you think are "mountain ranges" are actually regoins in the corona that are changing tempertaure from one frame of the AVI to another.

What makes you think that the base of these loops originate in the corona? The temperature is not changing by the way, it's the light reflections that vary as the loops themselves vary.

They look structured because (I think) the temperture changes are caused by magnetic fields in the corona.

There are in fact temperature variations from one image to the next, but only in the loops themselves. The lighting variations and movement of objects however can change and therefore things in the image can change. That "dust' (for lack of better term) that blows around in the atmosphere after the CME event is one such example.

Simple enough for you?

I'm afraid it's OVERLY simplistic and your "explanation" addresses none of the actual details in this specific image.
 
Your ignorance is showing yet again :jaw-dropp .
There are no mountain ranges and the light detected is not reflected.

Since it is obvious that you are not actually thinking about running difference imagery, I will put you out of your misery of ignorance:
Do what NASA does to create running difference images.
  1. Take a photo of a mountain range.
  2. Take another photo of a mountain range.
  3. Subtract the first image from the second image. The result is the first image in the running difference AVI.
  4. Continue taking photos and subtracting the previous photo.
Guess what vanishes from the first and subsequent images? The mountain range!

Running difference imagery for some reason only shows running differences!
What you see in the TRACE running difference AVI are changes in the radiation observed 173Å pass band. Any persistent structures are removed by the processing.

What you think are "mountain ranges" are actually regoins in the corona that are changing tempertaure from one frame of the AVI to another. They look structured because (I think) the temperture changes are caused by magnetic fields in the corona.

Simple enough for you?


No, it's not. Michael labors under a fundamental misunderstanding of what a running difference image is. And no matter how simple or how complicated an explanation might be, he absolutely refuses to get it. It's been explained to him in depth, how the images are created, what they mean, how they aren't what he thinks they are. But you see, if he were to actually allow himself to understand, his whole delusion would come crashing down. Then he wouldn't be Mr. Science Hero, smarter than all scientists who have come before him (except Birkeland). He will forever remain in his own mind Michael Mozina, discoverer of the astrophysical Truth.

He'll ask why there are mountains in the image. We'll tell him there aren't. He'll demand we look again, closer, longer, try harder. He'll remind us that he's looked at the picture for hours, nay years! He'll tell us if we look long enough we'll see the mountains, too. We'll tell him again they're not mountains. He'll ask us why he sees mountains. We'll postulate that it's because he's mentally ill. Then he'll cry like a little girl, swear, moan, and generally treat everyone like crap. Then he'll start over. He'll eventually post literally thousands of times denying reality and claiming that everyone else has a problem because we don't buy into his delusion. It's actually rather pathetic.

As long as he wallows deep in the mire of his willful ignorance, he can proclaim victory over science. Believe me, you will never get him to understand how simple it is. In fact, the delusion is so strong in him that he will lie to avoid escaping it. He will staunchly declare that nobody has ever addressed the issue of his sacred images, even though it's been done time and time again. Grade school kids get it. Michael never will.
 
Do you guys *always* feel the need to posture in every post? It gets old.
It is not old when you display your ignorance with just about every post

Well that depends. The sun (and any mountains on it) rotates between images, so you're generally left with an outline of the mountain. If the lighting changes on the mountain from one image to the next, you'll also see patterns caused by these lighting changes. Coronal loops are rather dynamic and rarely stay "fixed" either in terms of position or in terms of light output.
Look at the AVI. Do the "mountain ranges" in the corona drift through it?
They do not. NASA is not dumb enough to ignore the rotation of the Sun when they take images of corona.

Can you give a citation to the paper that states that the TRACE detector detects reflected light rather than emitted light? What about a textbook?


And...
Your ignorance is showing yet again :jaw-dropp Micheal Mozina :D.
Your "and any mountains on it" comment is so ignorant that it is not even wrong. You know that the 173Å pass band only includes radiation from plasma at a temperature of between 160,000 K and 2,000,000 K, i.e. the temperatures of the transition zone and corona plasma.

There are in fact temperature variations from one image to the next, but only in the loops themselves. The lighting variations and movement of objects however can change and therefore things in the image can change. That "dust' (for lack of better term) that blows around in the atmosphere after the CME event is one such example.
Then you agree - the "mountain ranges" in the corona are temperature changes in the coronal loops.

Only a crackpot would ignore the actual science used in constructing the running difference images and see "mountain ranges".

Only an ignorant crackpot would place these "mountain ranges" in the photosphere when the 173Å pass band only includes radiation from plasma at a temperature of between 160,000 K and 2,000,000 K, i.e. the temperatures of the transition zone and corona plasma.

Only a really ignorant crackpot would think that the the light being detected is reflected rather than emitted light.
 
Hi GeeMac. Could you give some links to the posts where running difference images were explained to Micheal.

That way I do not need to go over old material
On the other hand it is so interesting showing just how much a crackpot Micheal Mozina is.
On another hand it is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel! He provides shch easy material to work with. :D
 
Michael Mozina:
First asked on 23rd June. 2009.
No real response yet (25th June 2009 and counting).
How are these items of evidence for dark matter incorrect?
  • galaxy rotation curves (Newtonian dynamics, indirect measurement)
  • the motion of galxies in galactic clusters (Newtonian dynamics, indirect measurement)
  • the actual measurement of the mass density of galactic clusters showing that about 2% is in the galaxies and IGM (Maxwell's equations and General Relativity, indirect measurement)
  • the two actual measurements of the separation of dark matter from normal matter:
  • A bit of supporting evidence is that the Millennium Run used the Lambda-CDM model to replicate the large-scale structure of the universe. CDM = Cold Dark Matter.
N.B. The above evidence is based on empirical data (as defined in MM's web site, e.g. the solar data and images which are from uncontrolled experiments).
Newtonian dynamics have been confirmed in controlled experiments.
Maxwell's equations have been confirmed in controlled experiments.
General Relativity has been confirmed in controlled experiments.

So far we have seen
  • Michael Mozina's usual inability to understand what empirical means with his "empirical measurments of an *CONTROLLED* experiment" nonsense.
  • His personal opinion that somehow astronomers have underestimated the visible mass of galaxies. That would have to by a factor of 50 or more.
The last point demands more questions:
First asked 25 June 2009:
Would you like to explain how the astronomers got the mass so wrong, e.g.
  • What visible matter are they not accounting for?
  • How is the mass of the visible matter they are accounting for measured incorrectly?
  • Is the Sun two times heavier than orbital mechanics say that it is? 10 times? 50 times? 100 times? Or greater?
Perhaps this just your personal opinion unsupported by any empirical evidence just because you cannot understand the evidence for dark matter?
 
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