I have no reference why TSA policies are wrong

No, but an airport is a completely different context.



If you get a speeding ticket, protest it and demand a trial, you don't get a trial by jury. All trials aren't jury trials. If you get a speeding ticket in Oklahoma, you aren't going to have a trial in your home of Arkansas. These aren't criminal trials here.

I'm sure someone could take the TSA to court if they think they are violating the constitution, but I'm also sure they'd lose the case.

But if you had a TSA encounter in El Paso and your home was Milwukee, the administrative hearing at the TSA would be in Ft. worth if I recall correctly.
And you have no say in the location.

Where I live you can require a jury for speeding tickets .... Depends on the state. But are you saying that an issue of a 11,000 fine should be handled with the same lack of procedure as a speeding ticket?
 
i'm sure someone could take the TSA to court if they think they are violating the constitution, but I'm also sure they'd lose the case.

That is too broad of statement to be defensible. Big organization, lots of people, lots of actions. Of course there exist good sound cases on constitutional grounds. Also many are not good or sound cases. Need to be very precise and somewhat technical in making such a statement and refer to specific issue.

Just to say the TSA all their regulations actions procedures methods equipment is constitutional is flat crazy.
 
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But if you had a TSA encounter in El Paso and your home was Milwukee, the administrative hearing at the TSA would be in Ft. worth if I recall correctly.
And you have no say in the location.

And you don't with a speeding ticket either, or parking in a handicapped spot.

I'll grant there's an inconvenience issue here and it should be fixed, but it isn't unconstitutional.

Where I live you can require a jury for speeding tickets .... Depends on the state. But are you saying that an issue of a 11,000 fine should be handled with the same lack of procedure as a speeding ticket?

Legally speaking it is the exact same sort of thing, so yes.

i'm sure someone could take the TSA to court if they think they are violating the constitution, but I'm also sure they'd lose the case.

That is too broad of statement to be defensible. Big organization, lots of people, lots of actions. Of course there exist good sound cases on constitutional grounds. Also many are not good or sound cases. Need to be very precise and somewhat technical in making such a statement and refer to specific issue.

Just to say the TSA all their regulations actions procedures methods equipment is constitutional is flat crazy.

In your opinion, but you haven't shown anything unconstitutional about it at all. You just don't like it.

I'm not saying it is perfect, but as far as I see it is 100% legal.
 
.....Legally speaking it is the exact same sort of thing, so yes....not saying it is perfect, but as far as I see it is 100% legal.

Unconstitutional and legal are not the same.

Federal administrative rulings and penalties may or may not be constitutional, but talking about them being "legal" is a bit bizarre.

They are not law, but simply a promulgated set of regulations. Typically there is a 10 day comment period where input is solicited, then they may be modified, and then they simply are put into effect.
 
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Unconstitutional and legal are not the same.

Clearly it's not illegal. I don't see anything unconstitutional about it either, and you have yet to demonstrate how it is unconstitutional besides your dislike of it.

Go on. Try to show me where it violates the Constitution now.
 
Originally Posted by mhaze

That is too broad of statement to be defensible. Big organization, lots of people, lots of actions. Of course there exist good sound cases on constitutional grounds. Also many are not good or sound cases. Need to be very precise and somewhat technical in making such a statement and refer to specific issue.

Just to say the TSA all their regulations actions procedures methods equipment is constitutional is flat crazy.


Clearly it's not illegal. I don't see anything unconstitutional about it either, and you have yet to demonstrate how it is unconstitutional besides your dislike of it.

Go on. Try to show me where it violates the Constitution now.
One more time. You have to be precise in your question, or you can have no answer. I pointed this out previously, but apparently that didn't sink in.

What, exactly, of the various issues that have been discussed in this thread, is the it?

I believe I've only used an argument for unconstitutionality with respect to fairly specific issues, and that there are several of those.

If you want to see the formal arguments for or against constitutionality of the implementation of and use of these scanners, shouldn't you go to the court cases?

http://epic.org/privacy/litigation/EPIC_v_DHS_Petition.pdf

I'm sure we are just seeing the first of a wave of such cases. Then you can decide what arguments are being made that you feel don't hold water.
 
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Originally Posted by mhaze

One more time. You have to be precise in your question, or you can have no answer. I pointed this out previously, but apparently that didn't sink in.

What, exactly, of the various issues that have been discussed in this thread, is the it?

I believe I was referring to body scanners and other issues you recently mentioned as "it." I guess I should have used a plural.

Do you not have any particular issues regarding what the TSA is doing that you think is unconstitutional? The issues you brought up in particular so far WERE NOT UNCONSTITUTIONAL. I pointed out how they weren't and in response you changed the subject (I assume that means you agreed that they were constitutional).

As for practices in a large organization, I'm sure they'll occasionally have issues. Police Departments, the FBI, and other government organizations occasionally have issues too. That's why we have a court system, to resolve such things. Occasionally mistakes and the like aren't a big concern to me, however.

As for that petition, it just seems to be something regarding some people demanding that full body scanners not be used (and complaints about their various other petitions regarding the same not being responded to). Again though, I don't see how Full Body Scanners are unconstitutional, and no one here has provided firm reason to claim that they are. For lack of a good reason, they've had to resort to ridiculous claims such as it being the same as a strip search or the like, when it most definitely is not.
 
I believe I was referring to body scanners and other issues you recently mentioned as "it." I guess I should have used a plural.

Do you not have any particular issues regarding what the TSA is doing that you think is unconstitutional? The issues you brought up in particular so far WERE NOT UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Final time, you are painting with too broad a brush here.

As for that petition, it just seems to be something regarding some people demanding that full body scanners not be used (and complaints about their various other petitions regarding the same not being responded to). Again though, I don't see how Full Body Scanners are unconstitutional.....
Such an opinion is in fact validated, affirmed and proven by NOT READING the text of the petitions in US Court:

"The deployment of Full Body Scanners in US airports, as currently proposed, violates the U.S. Constitution, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (“RFRA”), the Privacy Act of 1974(“Privacy Act”), and the Administrative Procedures Act (“APA”)."(Petition, April 21, 2010, page 1)."
The petition mentions the following concerns regarding the full body scanners:

  • The TSA is making FBS the primary and mandatory method of security screening.
  • The scanners violate the Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution, protecting citizens from unreasonable searchs.
  • The scanners perform a virtual "strip search" of each passenger.
According to the petition, hundreds of air travelers have filed complaints against the full body scanners, saying that the scans are invasive, that the TSA neglects to inform travelers about the body scanners, that travelers are not informed of alternative pat-down, and that the TSA has forced children and pregnant women into the body scanner, without identifying the scanner and telling the passengers what the scanner does.

Much more litigation is expected.

Update: The initial petition mentioned above was followed by a response from the government on technical issues, then EPIC provided this final request for injunction against use of the scanners:

http://epic.org/privacy/backscatter/EPIC_reply_final.pdf

You may find this of interest as they reveal more of their reasoning on constitutional law on the issues.

 
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According to the petition, hundreds of air travelers have filed complaints against the full body scanners, saying that the scans are invasive, that the TSA neglects to inform travelers about the body scanners, that travelers are not informed of alternative pat-down, and that the TSA has forced children and pregnant women into the body scanner, without identifying the scanner and telling the passengers what the scanner does.

I can attest to this part. I was selected to go through the scanner in Vegas last month. I had never seen one, and didn't know what it was when they told me to empty all my pockets, step on the footprints, and hold my hands up. I got the idea when the scanner rotated around me. I wasn't told what it was, or what my alternatives were. I also got attitude when I was asked if I had anything in my pockets, and I said yes, I got a big sigh and a glare and was told like a little kid that I've got to empty everything out. I normally keep my hankerchief and wallet in my pockets going through the metal detector, since they have no metal. TSA lady acted like I was causing her problems. Also, it seemed like I just couldn't get my arms in the right spot for her. I'm such a stupid.

None of the other airports I normally fly in and out of have scanners yet.
 
Final time, you are painting with too broad a brush here.


Such an opinion is in fact validated, affirmed and proven by NOT READING the text of the petitions in US Court:

I skimmed the first few pages. Guess what, it's exactly what I said it was. A protest about the scanners. You seem to be confusing the fact that I don't see how the scanners are unconstitutional (which I've discussed at length in this thread) with the fact the petition claims they are. Since I've already talked about this in this thread, and you dropped the subject, I figured we had dealt with it and I didn't have to go over the particular claim in the petition since it had been gone over here. The petition, as far as this thread is concerned, is just more of the same.

Now if you want to talk about that more, I'm find doing that.

"The deployment of Full Body Scanners in US airports, as currently proposed, violates the U.S. Constitution, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (“RFRA”), the Privacy Act of 1974(“Privacy Act”), and the Administrative Procedures Act (“APA”)."(Petition, April 21, 2010, page 1)."
The petition mentions the following concerns regarding the full body scanners:

  • The TSA is making FBS the primary and mandatory method of security screening.
  • The scanners violate the Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution, protecting citizens from unreasonable searchs.
  • The scanners perform a virtual "strip search" of each passenger.
According to the petition, hundreds of air travelers have filed complaints against the full body scanners, saying that the scans are invasive, that the TSA neglects to inform travelers about the body scanners, that travelers are not informed of alternative pat-down, and that the TSA has forced children and pregnant women into the body scanner, without identifying the scanner and telling the passengers what the scanner does.

Much more litigation is expected.

Again, while I am sure there are small problems here and there, the scanners themselves are not unconstitutional as far as I see. They are far from an unreasonable security measure, and they don't even show people nude (since they adjusted them to not do that). Again, just because someone claims something is an unreasonable search, does not make it so. There are very real and legitimate security concerns that the scanners help address for the safety not just of passengers, but other people in the country. A scan is not invasive in the same way a strip search would be. It's not even as invasive as a pat down.

As for the "violations" of particular statutes, the FBS don't do that. I'll add a bit more on that in just a few minutes. (Edit: Added now)

I've gone over the 4th Amendment aspects already.

RFRA part is about the The Sherbert Test

From Wikipedia: It consists of four criteria that are used to determine if an individual's right to religious free exercise has been violated by the government. The test is as follows:

For the individual, the court must determine

* whether the person has a claim involving a sincere religious belief, and
* whether the government action is a substantial burden on the person’s ability to act on that belief.

If these two elements are established, then the government must prove

* that it is acting in furtherance of a "compelling state interest," and
* that it has pursued that interest in the manner least restrictive, or least burdensome, to religion.

Clearly there's compelling state interest.
Now one has to argue that the scanners are somehow more restrictive or burdensome than mandatory patdowns or the like. I think that's fairly obviously not the case. It would be a very tough argument to make.

Privacy Act

http://www.justice.gov/opcl/privstat.htm

It doesn't violate it, since....

(4) the term "record" means any item, collection, or grouping of information about an individual that is maintained by an agency, including, but not limited to, his education, financial transactions, medical history, and criminal or employment history and that contains his name, or the identifying number, symbol, or other identifying particular assigned to the individual, such as a finger or voice print or a photograph;

(5) the term "system of records" means a group of any records under the control of any agency from which information is retrieved by the name of the individual or by some identifying number, symbol, or other identifying particular assigned to the individual;

Since you can't put in someone's name/ID number/whatever and get the scanner record on them, it doesn't apply.

Administrative Procedures Act

I'll grant there have been some problems with how they've informed the public about their rules, and while this is important, it does not make for a case against FBS, but rather a case that the TSA needs to be more clear on things.
 
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I skimmed the first few pages. Guess what, it's exactly what I said it was. A protest about the scanners. You seem to be confusing the fact that I don't see how the scanners are unconstitutional (which I've discussed at length in this thread) with the fact the petition claims they are.

You've made your point clear, you are in favor of indiscriminate TSA use of porno-scanners and grope-rape.

And you are in favor of TSA having an extra-constitutional arena of operations.
 
You've made your point clear, you are in favor of indiscriminate TSA use of porno-scanners and grope-rape.

And you are in favor of TSA having an extra-constitutional arena of operations.

You haven't proved they are extra-constitutional at all. You just keep insisting they are. Since you have no actual constitutional argument and since the scanners aren't actually onerous, you instead making up colorful language to try to bolster your argument.
 
You haven't proved they are extra-constitutional at all. You just keep insisting they are. Since you have no actual constitutional argument and since the scanners aren't actually onerous, you instead making up colorful language to try to bolster your argument.

Final comment with you on this, then I'm through discussing the matter with you and I add, am not impressed by your little petite challenges.

The whole matter revolves around whether the TSA does have the right to operate outside the constitution, eg, "extra-constitutional". That's not something for me to prove, but a fact. For example, the assertion that the airport screening area prior to SIDA is one in which you have affirmed the lack of constitutional rights when you bought your ticket. From there, the discussion proceeds to whether they SHOULD have such privaleges.

Cheers!
 
Final comment with you on this, then I'm through discussing the matter with you and I add, am not impressed by your little petite challenges.

The whole matter revolves around whether the TSA does have the right to operate outside the constitution, eg, "extra-constitutional". That's not something for me to prove, but a fact. For example, the assertion that the airport screening area prior to SIDA is one in which you have affirmed the lack of constitutional rights when you bought your ticket. From there, the discussion proceeds to whether they SHOULD have such privaleges.

Cheers!

You have failed to show in any way how they are operating outside the Constitution. I have asked you to tell me how they are doing this many times and each time you have failed beyond the now modest procedural errors which don't actually violate the Constitution.
 
Just wanted to add, the scanner technology poses no health risk at all. The frequency of the waves is such it is impossible that they could even break one atomic bond in the human body.

Edit: With the millimeter wave ones anyhow. The X-Ray ones don't seem to be a big concern when you compare them to radiation exposure of actual flight from what I can tell.
 
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Clearly it's not illegal. I don't see anything unconstitutional about it either, and you have yet to demonstrate how it is unconstitutional besides your dislike of it.

Go on. Try to show me where it violates the Constitution now.


The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America…
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I do not see any rational way to support the claim that, in the complete absence of any probable cause, that subjecting an innocent person without his freely-given uncoerced consent, to what amounts of a virtual strip search or a sexual assault, on the pretext of searching for any kind of contraband, does not constitute an unreasonable search, as mentioned in this Amendment.

At the very least, I think the burden must always be on the one who is advocating that any individual should be subjected to such an intrusive violation of his person, to show very solid just cause why such an intrusion is necessary. In this case, no credible argument has been made in defense of this outrageous conduct that comes anywhere close to meeting any rational standard of proof of its necessity or justifiability.

In any other context, the current treatment of airline passengers under this policy would be prosecuted as sexual assault, and the perpetrators, upon conviction, would spend a long time in prison and thereafter have to register as sex offenders. I do not see any justification for allowing the TSA perverts to engage in this conduct without them facing exactly the same consequences that anyone else would for this same conduct.

I don't care that they are “just following orders”. They know damn well that this is wrong; and anyone who obeys such an order is a criminal, who fully deserves to be treated as such.
 
The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America…
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I do not see any rational way to support the claim that, in the complete absence of any probable cause, that subjecting an innocent person without his freely-given uncoerced consent, to what amounts of a virtual strip search or a sexual assault, on the pretext of searching for any kind of contraband, does not constitute an unreasonable search, as mentioned in this Amendment.

It's not a sexual assault or strip search. Inflammatory language does not a case make. In fact, it makes it sound like you don't have a legal leg to stand on so you have to amp up the rhetoric.

For it to even be considered protected by the fourth amendment you have to have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Given how things are, it is generally considered unreasonable to expect privacy regarding anything on your person when boarding a plane. In fact, you know long, long before you get to the airport that you shouldn't expect privacy boarding the plane.
 
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It's not a sexual assault or strip search. Inflammatory language does not a case make. In fact, it makes it sound like you don't have a legal leg to stand on so you have to amp up the rhetoric.

For it to even be considered protected by the fourth amendment you have to have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Given how things are, it is generally considered unreasonable to expect privacy regarding anything on your person when boarding a plane. In fact, you know long, long before you get to the airport that you shouldn't expect privacy boarding the plane.


The vast majority of people believe that they have a right to expect privacy regarding the most intimate parts of their bodies; and that any unwanted contact with or viewing of those parts by strangers constitutes a violation of that.

And, in any context other than this, deliberate, unwanted contact with one's intimate parts is indeed sexual assault. It is a felony, that carries, on conviction, severe criminal penalties.

It is here, as well.

If anything, the TSA perverts who are perpetrating this abuse deserve to be treated moire harshly than the common random groper or peeping tom, because of the manner they are blatantly abusing their ersatz authority in order to deceive and coerce innocent passengers into submitting to these crimes.
 
The vast majority of people believe that they have a right to expect privacy regarding the most intimate parts of their bodies; and that any unwanted contact with or viewing of those parts by strangers constitutes a violation of that.

And, in any context other than this, deliberate, unwanted contact with one's intimate parts is indeed sexual assault. It is a felony, that carries, on conviction, severe criminal penalties.

It is here, as well.

If anything, the TSA perverts who are perpetrating this abuse deserve to be treated moire harshly than the common random groper or peeping tom, because of the manner they are blatantly abusing their ersatz authority in order to deceive and coerce innocent passengers into submitting to these crimes.

Polls show most Americans are just fine with full-body scanners, which don't show images of people nude contrary to the claims of people in this thread. A pat-down isn't the same as groping either. You should try to stick to the facts rather than these fantasies of yours.
 
The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America…
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I do not see any rational way to support the claim that, in the complete absence of any probable cause, that subjecting an innocent person without his freely-given uncoerced consent, to what amounts of a virtual strip search or a sexual assault, on the pretext of searching for any kind of contraband, does not constitute an unreasonable search, as mentioned in this Amendment.

At the very least, I think the burden must always be on the one who is advocating that any individual should be subjected to such an intrusive violation of his person, to show very solid just cause why such an intrusion is necessary. In this case, no credible argument has been made in defense of this outrageous conduct that comes anywhere close to meeting any rational standard of proof of its necessity or justifiability.

In any other context, the current treatment of airline passengers under this policy would be prosecuted as sexual assault, and the perpetrators, upon conviction, would spend a long time in prison and thereafter have to register as sex offenders. I do not see any justification for allowing the TSA perverts to engage in this conduct without them facing exactly the same consequences that anyone else would for this same conduct.

I don't care that they are “just following orders”. They know damn well that this is wrong; and anyone who obeys such an order is a criminal, who fully deserves to be treated as such.
Like I said, they are attempting to stand on a carved out area of extra-constitutionality. (Which, yes, could then be extended to trains, subways, buildings, other search tactics, whatever). If as Katlee noted all government employees are required to take an oath to uphold the Constitution, there is a little problem there.

That's all because "probable cause" doesn't exist. Oh, and after you send them to prison and then they get out and register as sexual offenders, they can go back to working for the TSA if ten years goes by and they are not caught again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192711&page=10
 
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