bikerdruid
Philosopher
the gnostic gospels...they didn't follow the party line and were left out.
they tell a very different story.
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Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.
- Thread starter DOC
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the gnostic gospels...they didn't follow the party line and were left out.
they tell a very different story.
Rincewind
Philosopher
He's been quiet for a few days; I wonder if he went to TAM Oz? 
Lothian
should be banned
Perhaps he is in the barmy army.He's been quiet for a few days; I wonder if he went to TAM Oz?
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
To be fair, the black dot should probably be partially overlapping the American+muslim overlapping zone too. Or is the author of the diagram claiming that no one among the 18 million US muslim belong to an al quaeda group ?
amb
Unregistered
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Perhaps when DOC gets back he can explain how the cruel, wrathful, warlike god of the O/T suddenly had a personality transplant and became a benevolent paragon of virtue, extolling love, mercy and understanding in the N/T?
It's as if there were two gods, or in his old age, the god of the O/T saw the error of his ways, after killing millions of men, women, children and not to mention millions of helpless dumb animals. All to satisfy his blood lust.
It's as if there were two gods, or in his old age, the god of the O/T saw the error of his ways, after killing millions of men, women, children and not to mention millions of helpless dumb animals. All to satisfy his blood lust.
GrandMasterFox
Illuminator
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Actually... The god in the OT transforms itself every other page.
Many of the stuff people like doc quote from Jesus comes from the OT (like loving your neighbour infamous quote).
Many of the laws in the OT, like the example I gave above with slavery laws, revolve around and change themselves to become much more humane.
And we also know that the more decent books came much much later on, despite all of them being credited to the same person (moses).
Of course it should also be noted that half the stuff people claim is "good" about the religion isn't absolutely good to begin is.
Giving money to the poor is a nice but it is also a powerful political tool as we have seen recently when a church said that it would stop its charity work if gay marriage would be allowed. It makes people dependent on you and more vulnerable to conversion.
Honoring one's mother and father seem nice at first, but when you realize what it actually means you realize that it basically tells you that you should buy into the stuff your parents tell you (indoctrination) plus drop into you the psychology of do everything your maker says, god is your maker so obey him.
Loving's one neighbour as yourself, as I have mentioned in the other thread, is the worst of all considering that what it actually means is that you should treat everyone by your own standards and judge them accordingly.
I am willing to die for my belief, therefore my neighbour should be willing to die for my belief as well.
To make a long rant short, I completely disagree with amb.
The OT god is an incompentant racist bufoon that is both wrathful and merciful. He seems more like some bi-polar patient to me.
I would make the joke that perhaps by the time of the NT he was finally on his meds, but quite frankly I still fail to see anything super special benevolent or otherwise about jesus. Most of the stuff he said either wasn't his to begin with, ties heavily into tools of brainwashing the masses or is simply terrible advice.
bikerdruid
Philosopher
maybe doc took a few days off to count his posts in the thread.
he is into quantity, not quality, after all.
Lothian
should be banned
I think he is deciding which denomination he is now in.
Given the evidence he has provided for the truth of Islam in recent posts I think that he will take a lead from 'Jews for Jesus' and will declare that 'Christians for Mohammed'* is the one true faith.
*Also known as Christians for Muhammed, Christians for Muhammad, Christians for Mohammed & Christians for Olis
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tsig
a carbon based life-form
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DOC has deconverted two Christians gave rise to Abethatenism and made Islam look good. Which team is he playing for?
Lucian
Illuminator
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There is no Aberhaten but Aberhaten, and DOC is His prophet.
kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
Now THAT'S subtle.
How can you have "hard" evidence of the body of a famous historical person that has been missing for 2000 years. When detectives don't have a body, they look at circumstantial evidence. I've provided some of that circumstantial evidence, and also some philosophical and historical evidence in post #13104
I said I'd bring in some new evidence and here is some new historical evidence that has been right in front of our faces. But if you don't notice evidence, and then do notice it, it becomes new to you.
Some people in here talk of the NT legend. Well the following historical evidence hurts that legend theory. All of the 33 historical people mentioned below are in the New Testament and they are “all” also mentioned mentioned by Non-Christians sources. These sources include Joshephus, Tacitus, Philo, inscriptions, Seutonius, etc.. The following list is from the book cited in post #1 (pg. 270).
Jesus, Agrippa I, Agrippa II, Ananias, Annas, Aretas,
Bernice (wife of Agrippa II), Caesar Augustus, Caiaphas, Claudius
Drusilla wife of Felix, Egyptian false prophet, Erastus, Felix,
Gallio, Gamaliel, Herod Antipas, Herod Archilaus, Herod the Great
Herod Philip I, Herod Philip II, Herodius, Herodias’s Daughter
Salome, James, John the Baptist, Judas the Galilean, Lysanias,
Pilate, Quirinius, Porcius, Festus, Sergius Paulos, Tiberius Caesar.
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Some skepics might say well the NT writers were just writing an historical novel. Well, there are many problems with this theory.
1) There is no record of historical novels in Palestine during that era. In fact there are no records of novels at all (in that era of no paper). And some skeptics want us to believe all of the sudden 4 historical novels are written.
And as the book cited in post #1 states (on page 271), there are other problems with this theory
2) It can’t explain why independent non-Christian writers collectively reveal a storyline similar to the NT.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6366925#post6366925
3) It can’t explain why the NT writers endured persecution, torture, and death. Why would they have done so for a fictional story.
4) Novelists usually do not use the names of real people for the main characters. If they did, those real people –- especially powerful government and religious Officials {e.g. Agrippa I, Agrippa II, Caesar Augustus, Caiaphas, Herod Antipas, Herod Archilaus, Herod the Great, Herod Philip I, Tiberius Caesar, (and all the descendants of these people, for example all the Kennedy descendants} would deny the story, destroy the credibility of the authors, and maybe even take punitive action against them for doing so.
5) Since the NT contains multiple independent accounts of these events by nine different authors, the historical novel theory would require a grand conspiracy over a 20 to 50 year period between those nine authors, who were spread all over the ancient world. This is not plausible either. In fact, the assertion that the NT events are part of a grand conspiracy exists only in novels. In the real world, such assertions are crushed by the weight of the evidence.
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bikerdruid
Philosopher
all writers of historical fiction include real people, places and circumstances.
it is what lends an air of verisimilitude to good fiction.
personally, i have no problem believing that jesus existed.
i have never seen anything conclusive to prove he did not.
however, as with any legendary character, the stories grow in the telling.
i think the world would be a much better place if people tried to live jesus' commandment of love, rather than fussing and fighting over the insignificant parts or his, or, rather paul's of tarsus fictional bits about him.
That is a lie, and you are a liar.DOC said:
So you lied. And it's "out there for everyone to see." Thoughts?This is another example of you trying to transplant your non-fiction reading, modern Christian ideology into Biblical Judea.
Some Ancient Jewish Novels:
Greek Esther
Susanna, Bel, and the Serpent
Tobit
Judith
The Marriage and Conversion of Aseneth
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/oso/public/content/religion/9780195151428/toc.html
As usual, way to demonstrate your complete ignorance of your chosen topic DOC.D'oh
GB
bikerdruid
Philosopher
wrong.
homer's works were known in the world hundreds of years before first century.
papyrus had been used for writing centuries before that.
clay tablets were millenia old before that, in fact, 'gilgamesh' was already very old.
seems there was quite a bit of literature around.
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