Nazis Were Given ‘Safe Haven’ in U.S.

[angrysoba]

Yes, I am really not sure what is new here. The opening chapters of Legacy of Ashes describes some of this. I think there are probably a number of very detailed books on the subject as well.

 

[angrysoba]

Since the whole point of Paperclip was to acquire resources to advance the state of the art in certain technological fields--notably aerospace technology--this is a little like saying "if it weren't for wanting NASA, we probably wouldn't have NASA".

True though, isn't it.

 

[theprestige]

True though, isn't it.

I'm not sure what you mean. NASA was going to happen, with or without the success of Paperclip. It probably would have happened much the same way, proposing and accomplishing much the same missions (give or take von Braun's specific contributions to the development of the Saturn V launch vehicle).

How many war-era German scientists do you think were actually involved in establishing NASA? What, exactly, do you imagine their contributions were to that agency's operations?

 

[angrysoba]

I'm not sure what you mean. NASA was going to happen, with or without the success of Paperclip. It probably would have happened much the same way, proposing and accomplishing much the same missions (give or take von Braun's specific contributions to the development of the Saturn V launch vehicle).

How many war-era German scientists do you think were actually involved in establishing NASA? What, exactly, do you imagine their contributions were to that agency's operations?

I probably should have quoted you more selectively. I was responding to your comment:

if it weren't for wanting NASA, we probably wouldn't have NASA".

This is true, isn't it, even if rather banal. That's why I put a smiley beside it. It was to signpost the fact that I was being facetious.

I don't know how many war-era German scientists were actually involved in establishing NASA, but I did know of Operation Paperclip and your characterization of it being to gather the resources to build NASA is also no doubt true (I'll trust you on that) but not exactly the whole truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

 

[brenn]

I took the OP's post to be about the Nazis who helped with the start-up of the CIA (Gen. Reinhard Gehlen and associates). Those were not the same Nazis who worked for NASA. In fact, the CIA nazis would be considered much more culpable in WW II than the NASA nazis. The Gehlen group included actual "war criminals."

 

[angrysoba]

I took the OP's post to be about the Nazis who helped with the start-up of the CIA (Gen. Reinhard Gehlen and associates). Those were not the same Nazis who worked for NASA. In fact, the CIA nazis would be considered much more culpable in WW II than the NASA nazis. The Gehlen group included actual "war criminals."

Not sure, I'm having trouble logging into my NYT account to read the actual article but the OP does say:

Long story short: The CIA thought they might have some small intelligence value or maybe some expertise in rockets or the like, and so overlooked their atrocities. Pretty shameful if you ask me.

But, yes, those from the Abwehr were almost certainly guilty of far more heinous crimes such as Gehlen and his men.

Another one who had been determined to be a war criminal by the Justice Department was Mikola Lebed, a Ukranian fascist.

 

[Just thinking]

Seriously though, I already knew about Wernher von Braun. This report isn't about him, but about other, less famous but arguably more culpable Nazis.

Is it safe?

 

[TSR]

seriously though, i already knew about wernher von braun. This report isn't about him, but about other, less famous but arguably more culpable nazis.

.

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun, a man whose allegiance is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown: "Ha, Nazi schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical, say rather that he's ... apolitical.

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Some have harsh words for this man of renown, but some think our attitude should be one of gratitude.
Like the widows and cripples in old London town who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.

You, too, may be a big hero, once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down, und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun.

.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

This is an interesting thread for me. I am used to seeing people become quite vitriolic when it is suggested that "everybody in Germany was a Nazi", pointing out that "most people just went along with it because it was the only option available." Now it seems that being in Germany at the time DOES make one a Nazi True Believer and an evil person.

I learn something new every day.

 

[angrysoba]

This is an interesting thread for me. I am used to seeing people become quite vitriolic when it is suggested that "everybody in Germany was a Nazi", pointing out that "most people just went along with it because it was the only option available." Now it seems that being in Germany at the time DOES make one a Nazi True Believer and an evil person.

I learn something new every day.

The Goldhagen-esque thesis that everyone in Germany was essentially a genocidal and particularly anti-Semitic genocidal maniac who Hitler simply happened to have unleashed is not a theory that is supported by the majority of historians of the period but that doesn't change the fact that if the CIA had recruited Nazis (and by the term "Nazis" I mean Nazis!) then it is quite disturbing.

 

[brenn]

This is an interesting thread for me. I am used to seeing people become quite vitriolic when it is suggested that "everybody in Germany was a Nazi", pointing out that "most people just went along with it because it was the only option available." Now it seems that being in Germany at the time DOES make one a Nazi True Believer and an evil person.

I learn something new every day.

So you aren't familiar with the different standard that applies when you can use it against America, huh?

My chief complaint against the JREF forums is that I don't believe you can be a real skeptic and be as faithful to the left-wing "faith" (internally inconsistent as it is) as many, many members here.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So you aren't familiar with the different standard that applies when you can use it against America, huh?

Nice troll.

My chief complaint against the JREF forums is that I don't believe you can be a real skeptic and be as faithful to the left-wing "faith" (internally inconsistent as it is) as many, many members here.

Ah, so you're a right-wing fascistic gun-loving poor-hating gay-basher then?

All I was trying to point out was that sweeping generalizations such as "Nazi" seem to be okay when they can be used to push buttons. At least for some people.