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No time for lullabies

Garrison0fMars said:
It's certainly not an oppressive dictatorship, but we get more authoritarian by the day. Patriot Act, indefinite detention, the authorized killing of US citizens aboard, TSA nonsense. I think Glenn Gleenwald put it best, authoritarianism in the US has to be handled piece meal, to get the people use to it overtime.



To a large degree that's true, and I'm quite happy I still very much have freedom of speech here. However I wouldn't say our political system is really open to scrutiny in terms of political power, it's largely designed to keep other views out, through restrictive ballot access laws, exclusive debates, etc.



Oh of course not, events are rarely carbon copied onto one another, and the US is different in many ways to the USSR. But I do think we'll be seeing a decline of the US within the next few decades, with rising income stratification, and with it declining living standards. Nothing like what Greer says though. No return to "agrarian" nonsense or whatever.
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Right, then I think we're on the same page.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
Right, then I think we're on the same page.
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Yes, I'm nothing like Greer or "Orlov", which I'm sure TFian likes as well.

I do think we'll see a pretty uncomfortable decline though if the US doesn't fix the rising income inequality problem, there can't really be a "real" recovery without it.
 
There's also the fact that Americans ironically make far better communists than the Russians ever did. I can see a return to something like victory gardens (and more so with current informational technology, like digital mutual aid corps) ala ww2 era return (which despite popular belief, were not a government, but a grassroot initiative)
 
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Garrison0fMars said:
Yes, I'm nothing like Greer or "Orlov", which I'm sure TFian likes as well.

I do think we'll see a pretty uncomfortable decline though if the US doesn't fix the rising income inequality problem, there can't really be a "real" recovery without it.
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Hmm, well, I'm not that well read on the details of American economy, but the system seems to have a lot of uncomfortable bumps. I'm not sure if the US will get back up and running a hundred percent after this, really.

Low-end wages in the US seem absolutely horrific. I'm glad I don't live there, especially with the shaky social security.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
Hmm, well, I'm not that well read on the details of American economy, but the system seems to have a lot of uncomfortable bumps. I'm not sure if the US will get back up and running a hundred percent after this, really.
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Probably not if the current trend keeps going. Income stratification keeps rising here, and the differential is rather astonishing.

TubbaBlubba said:
Low-end wages in the US seem absolutely horrific. I'm glad I don't live there, especially with the shaky social security.
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I must say.."lucky" you :p The safety net here is almost non existent, and there's no living wage standard here (at least not on a large scale)

I don't think a nation can stay first world if it has so much income inequality (in fact, I'd think a first world economy is largely defined by how much income equality it does have), and the US doesn't look like it's going to tackle that issue anytime soon unfortunately.

It's also unwilling at the moment to give up it's massive global presence, which despite what Greer says, is a negative domestic factor, not a positive one.
 
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TubbaBlubba said:
That's probably because the CCCP sucked really really really really hard in just about every regard except maybe aerospace engineering and Vodka disposal.
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Of course you (again) missed my point, as usual. "gumboot" says collapses can't happen that quickly, I showed him an example that clearly demonstrates they can.
 
I wonder how many doomsday predictions there were for the US during the Great Depression as well...
 
Quad4_72 said:
I wonder how many doomsday predictions there were for the US during the Great Depression as well...
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Probably enough to make a book out of.

Another factor the Green Wizard isn't taking into account, organizing in the face of adversity, you should really read about what happened DURING the great depression TFian. People didn't just roll over and die.
 
TFian said:
He predicts in about 10 years, and he does have a response to the collapse, see his "Green Wizard" project. http://www.greenwizards.org/

What do you mean by mass communications, and how is that relevant?
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By mass communications he means the Unites States has the ability to maintain contact at all times with every part of the country. If there is a problem in Oregon for example, that problem can be solved within minutes before it turns into a big problem. The Romans did not have this luxury. So news of political unrest in far territories would not reach Rome itself for weeks.
 
Quad4_72 said:
By mass communications he means the Unites States has the ability to maintain contact at all times with every part of the country. If there is a problem in Oregon for example, that problem can be solved within minutes before it turns into a big problem. The Romans did not have this luxury. So news of political unrest in far territories would not reach Rome itself for weeks.
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Well keep in mind, Greer (and TFian) think the Internet will vanish after "energy contraction". http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183412
 
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Garrison0fMars said:
Well keep in mind, Greer (and TFian) think the Internet will vanish after "energy contraction". http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183412
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Aw yes it all makes sense now. I used to read and see articles such as these when Bush first became president as well. Basically, whenever there is a significant shift in political party or some other significant event there are always people with their doomsday predictions for the future. Some people actively seek these articles out (Such as TFian) because they find it exciting to read about how everything is going to collapse around us. Sadly for them, most of the time the facts simply do not support the claims.
 
Quad4_72 said:
Aw yes it all makes sense now. I used to read and see articles such as these when Bush first became president as well. Basically, whenever there is a significant shift in political party or some other significant event there are always people with their doomsday predictions for the future. Some people actively seek these articles out (Such as TFian) because they find it exciting to read about how everything is going to collapse around us. Sadly for them, most of the time the facts simply do not support the claims.
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I don't think there's any American partisan correlation, but you're right that they seek these things out. Most Peak Oilers want to see a return to "agrarian" societies, as TFian has often promoted.
 
Garrison0fMars said:
I don't think there's any American partisan correlation, but you're right that they seek these things out. Most Peak Oilers want to see a return to "agrarian" societies, as TFian has often promoted.
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I am not saying TFian's is politically motivated or anything, I am saying I see these types of articles for politics as well. Oh and that 10 year prediction is completely ridiculous. Might be one of the dumbest things I have heard in a while.
 
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Quad4_72 said:
Aw yes it all makes sense now. I used to read and see articles such as these when Bush first became president as well. Basically, whenever there is a significant shift in political party or some other significant event there are always people with their doomsday predictions for the future. Some people actively seek these articles out (Such as TFian) because they find it exciting to read about how everything is going to collapse around us. Sadly for them, most of the time the facts simply do not support the claims.
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You know, both you and Garrison are not addressing any of the arguments put forth by Greer, and are just focusing on the presenter (Me), which is a violation of the rules here. Please address the arguments, thank you.
 
Quad4_72 said:
I am not saying TFian's is politically motivated or anything, I am saying I see these types of articles for politics as well. Oh and that 10 year prediction is completely ridiculous. Might be one of the dumbest things I have heard in a while.
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Oh no doubt, these type of things spring up every generation, I think actually calculated at around 20-25 year intervals.

On the 10 year prediction, Greer says we'll be a "third world country" in 10 years. I can't say I'm going to hold too much stock in that prediction...
 
TFian said:
Of course you (again) missed my point, as usual. "gumboot" says collapses can't happen that quickly, I showed him an example that clearly demonstrates they can.
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Not really, that's just when the west started noticing the CCCP collapsing. It wasn't exactly an open society.
 
TFian said:
Wow, that smells of a conspiracy theory. When did they start to collapse then?
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From what I remember, the "collapse" started in the 80s, and accelerated into a free for all in the very early 90s. Two things to remember about this "collapse".

Before the collapse, Russia and it's satellite states already had a terrible living standard compared to the first world, well back into the 70s, possibly earlier. Frankly, life in the Soviet Union sucked, and I'm not sure it was ever a place you'd want to live. This "Collapse" also wasn't some sort of apocalyptic event, but simply a change in governmental structures and the powers that be. Things still haven't really improved in Russia, but that's not because of resource constraints.
 
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I think one of the factors that makes comparison to previous declines dicey is the unprecedented power of international corporations Now the largest corporations are much larger than many nations. How this will influence the decline of the USA is impossible to foresee.
 
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