Warring No planer factions- Shansksville and Pentagon no-planers vs WTC no planers

[WildCat]

You are disagreeing with him. Reread what he wrote, compare it to your own comments. Shut off your bias, and honestly assess the difference in the way you both describe what happened to most of the wreckage.

Did you see all the pics I posted Red?

 

[TheRedWorm]

I guess he thinks that "if it were a real crash" the witnesses would have said "the plane completely disturbed the ground and created a crater with all sorts of visible debris" in perfect quotation, without any simile and metaphor and as literal as possible.

I kind of wonder if it isn't all a game to him/her. They don't strike me as a dumb person, and to willfully ignore so much evidence of all types just seems...off. To be fair, however, being intelligent is no shield against having strange beliefs.

 

[leftysergeant]

There is no disagreement on the disposition of the pieces of the aircraft. I stated several times that engines and parts of the fuselage and empanage would have shattered. Most of the fuselage and wings, especially that long, rigid main deck, would have gone into the ground like a big bullet. We were, at the time, discussing what the crater looked like to the general public. The general public did not have a chance to see what was back there in those trees down-range of the crater. Most of what is there came from AFT of the wings. The rest (comprising a much larger portion of the total mass of the aircraft) was buried.

 

[leftysergeant]

And even as you write that, no niggling questions enter your head? Such as, how did ground seal up rather quickly over a 100 ton airliner?

Having dug ditches in glacial moraine, not the least. That most cvlosely resembles what I see in the soil at the impact site, which appears to be old mine tailings and sandy loam. I have seen ditches collapse and trap people up to their knees. There are a lot of cases on record in which collapsing glacial soils have completely buried ditch diggers. Your base of knowledge is too narrow.

If the majority of the wreckage was buried, where's the documentation of its excavation? One picture with an engine part curiously poised on a back hoe is the entirety of photographic evidence for the excavation of this buried airliner?

I haven't the greatest file management skills, so someone else may want to link some of them here, but there are several photos posted on this sub-forum of aerial views of the excavation. The documentation of each piece would not, logically, be as meticulous as in any normal crash because the down-to-the-last-numbered-screw procedures are part of the process to determine the cause of the crash. It helps to distinguish between accidents caused by weather, bad maintenance or defective and failed parts or plain old pilot error.

We knew before the first identifiable piece was found what happened. Some people on the ground knew what was happening before the plane clobbered in.

So everybody knew already that nothing about the aircraft itself caused the crash. It was no longer a matter for the NTSB, and their rules of documentation of evidence no longer applied. It was a matter for the FBI. They were at that point only interested in identifying perps and victims. The only aircraft parts for which they would have had any use were the black boxes, for the previously stated reason.

These murderous jihadists who had already killed physically fit, military trained pilots, were now scared of the passengers who "had a chance of retaking the aircraft" and decided to ground it instead of carrying on with their mission?

Makes sense to me. Guerillas are usually better trained at hand-to-hand combat than airplane drivers, in any corporation or military formation. Numbers can overcome this advantage.

 

[RedIbis]

Having dug ditches in glacial moraine, not the least. That most cvlosely resembles what I see in the soil at the impact site, which appears to be old mine tailings and sandy loam. I have seen ditches collapse and trap people up to their knees. There are a lot of cases on record in which collapsing glacial soils have completely buried ditch diggers. Your base of knowledge is too narrow.

Well, mystery solved. If soil covered up a few 175lb or so ditch diggers, certainly it can absorb 100 tons of airliner and leave behind a few scraps, some wisps of smoke and a blanket of dirt.

If this had occurred at Shanksville, every square millimeter of the site would have been combed by forensic scientists, soil analysts, videographers, etc etc. Where's that record of this incredible event?

Look at the leaps of logic you have to reconcile in your brain to make this scenario plausible.

 

[JimBenArm]

How incredibly daft!
Read up on the requirements for trenching anywhere in the USA. There are reasons for this which continue to sail completely over your unqualified head.
Keep talking out your ignorant ass. It's quite funny.

 

[beachnut]

... leave behind a few scraps, ...

few scraps are thousands for you? Few?

Thousands of aircraft parts are called a few by a fringe few who have paranoid conspiracy theories and delusions about 911.

 

[The Big Dog]

Well, mystery solved. If soil covered up a few 175lb or so ditch diggers, certainly it can absorb 100 tons of airliner and leave behind a few scraps, some wisps of smoke and a blanket of dirt.

If this had occurred at Shanksville, every square millimeter of the site would have been combed by forensic scientists, soil analysts, videographers, etc etc. Where's that record of this incredible event?

Look at the leaps of logic you have to reconcile in your brain to make this scenario plausible.

So you are saying that because YOU don't have access to the detailed records of recovering human remains at Shanksville, it could not have happened.

Well slap my ass and call me slappy, because old Red is arguing from incredulity, the second worse kind of argument. The worst being being making up lies about the insurance recovery in New York. That is a subject that old Red knows only to well.

Do continue, No Planer.

 

[leftysergeant]

few scraps are thousands for you? Few?

[qimg]http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/flt93debris21sm.jpg[/qimg]

Thousands of aircraft parts are called a few by a fringe few who have paranoid conspiracy theories and delusions about 911.

Please note, too, that there are no tire tracks or footprints noticeable in overhead views of this area, but there is obviously fresh dirt on top of vegetation, and that only on the down-range side of the crater.

There is no other way that any of these items or material could be deposited in this pattern other than to ram a fragile object into the ground at high speed in a manner which causes the front to dig in and the rear to snap off and break into smaller pieces which still have some momentum in the same direction in which they were originally travelling.

 

[triforcharity]

And even as you write that, no niggling questions enter your head? Such as, how did ground seal up rather quickly over a 100 ton airliner?
.

Shoot a bullet into the ground. Where does it go? Can you see the entire path all the way to the bullet? I bet not.

Same concept.

Just much bigger.

 

[RedIbis]

Shoot a bullet into the ground. Where does it go? Can you see the entire path all the way to the bullet? I bet not.

Same concept.

Just much bigger.

Goodness gracious. If this were even remotely applicable, you would simply be able to remove the bullet from the ground. You have to stick to the official story in which part of the plane flew several hundreds yards in several directions and part of the plane buried itself deep into the ground.

Your "bullet" doesn't end up whole in the dirt.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Goodness gracious. If this were even remotely applicable, you would simply be able to remove the bullet from the ground. You have to stick to the official story in which part of the plane flew several hundreds yards in several directions and part of the plane buried itself deep into the ground.

Your "bullet" doesn't end up whole in the dirt.

Ah, I see. Because the plane broke up into small pieces, it was more likely, not less, to make a single big hole in the ground; the bullet didn't leave a single hole because it stayed in one piece.

Well, that makes as much sense as anything else from the truth movement, I suppose.

Dave

 

[Andy_Ross]

Red is being deliberately Obtuse. It does him no credit to deliberately appear so dense when he is obviously an intelligent person.

 

[twinstead]

Red has a lot invested in believing that 9-11 was an inside job; everything about it is going to "suspicious" to him.

 

[leftysergeant]

Goodness gracious. If this were even remotely applicable, you would simply be able to remove the bullet from the ground.

But there is no way that any bullet other than an armor-piercing round of some incredibly hard metal would still be in perfect condition. Any lead bullet would be grossly deformed, probably mushroomed a bit, maybe even completely flattened.

But to take that bullet anology a bit further, picture a typical Russian 7.62X54R light ball fired it into sheets of steel stacked one on top of the other. You might find parts of the bronze jacket sticking out of the first sheet, a ring of lead in the next, and a deformed steel penetrator in the next.

Much of the sheet metal of the fuselage of Flt 93 was probably compressed around the main deck on impact because it could not be resisted by the soil, but, as it slowed and the empanage broke loose, what was not immediately buried would continue moving independent of the rest of the aircraft and, being rather fragile, would shatter into hundreds of pieces. Some luggage from the cargo hold and various furnishings and passengers from the rear of the aircraft were also ejected in this process.

The main deck acted like the steel penetrator core of the 7.62 round, tunneling in after much of the aluminum sheet metal work was destroyed. Seats, being dense, would probably have stopped after the sheet metal skin, but before the main deck. All of them would have been compressed end-to-end.

It is because the black boxes are generally located on the aft end of the main deck that they were found buried as deep as they were.

You have to stick to the official story in which part of the plane flew several hundreds yards in several directions and part of the plane buried itself deep into the ground.

Well, of course. Any other scenario would defy all logic and reality as I have experienced it over 63 years.

Your "bullet" doesn't end up whole in the dirt.

Nobody said it should. Most of it should be there, but it will be probably mangled beyond recognition without close examination.

 

[1337m4n]

And even as you write that, no niggling questions enter your head? Such as, how did ground seal up rather quickly over a 100 ton airliner?

If the majority of the wreckage was buried, where's the documentation of its excavation? One picture with an engine part curiously poised on a back hoe is the entirety of photographic evidence for the excavation of this buried airliner?

And finally, in a string of assumptions you finish off with a doozy. These murderous jihadists who had already killed physically fit, military trained pilots, were now scared of the passengers who "had a chance of retaking the aircraft" and decided to ground it instead of carrying on with their mission?

Had this not been the national day of tragedy, you would not have turned off your critical thinking skills and would have to admit that the Shanksville site is a curiosity, at the very least.

1) Do you agree that anti-air missiles cause planes to crash, not to disintegrate?

2) What is the object in this post?

3) There is a smoldering crater, or at least something that resembles a smoldering crater, in Shanksville. If a plane didn't crash there, why is it there?

4) If [insert NWO bad guy of choice] went to all the trouble to fake a smoldering crater, why did he not also plant huge chunks of airplane into said crater? If he didn't fake it, then why is that smoldering crater there?

5) If Flight 93 did not crash in said smoldering crater, does it still exist? If not, then why does it no longer exist? If so, then where could it have gone?

6) Was any missile debris found anywhere near the Shanksville crash site?

7) What, if any, professional qualifications and expertise do you have that make you an authority on what high-speed aircraft impacts should look like?

8) How many cleanup workers and emergency response workers doubt that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?

9) How many United Airlines employees doubt that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?

10) Can you post a picture of an airplane crash that demonstrates what you think the crater should look like?

11) Did anyone at the Moussaoui trial complain about a lack of evidence that Flight 93 crashed in Shanksville?


These will be reposted in every Flight 93 thread you post in until satisfactory answers are given.

 

[Andy_Ross]

12) What shot it down? Air to Air Missile or Ground launched?

13) What launched the missile?

 

[dafydd]

Red has a lot invested in believing that 9-11 was an inside job; everything about it is going to "suspicious" to him.

I think that he knows his 'theory' (whatever that is,he won't tell us) is garbage,but it's too late to turn back now.

 

[funk de fino]

And finally, in a string of assumptions you finish off with a doozy. These murderous jihadists who had already killed physically fit, military trained pilots, were now scared of the passengers who "had a chance of retaking the aircraft" and decided to ground it instead of carrying on with their mission?

Quite possibly the dumbest thing you have ever posted. How many pilots were there compared to how many passengers? You could probably take a couple of 12 year olds if they tried to mug you but you couldnt take 50 of them.

How did the body parts and personal effects of the passengers get in the hole Red?

 

[dafydd]

Quite possibly the dumbest thing you have ever posted. How many pilots were there compared to how many passengers? You could probably take a couple of 12 year olds if they tried to mug you but you couldnt take 50 of them.

How did the body parts and personal effects of the passengers get in the hole Red?

And answer came there none.