Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Witnesses lied? Is that why they were convicted?

Hi Alt+F4, incidentally I just asked if you believe Curatolo is truthful in my recent answer to your post.

 

[RoseMontague]

Bongiorno's pregnant, and asked for a delay.

Hellmann said that because Sollecito had two lawyers, the process could continue anyway, but to be a nice guy, he granted a delay until 11 December.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/10_...lo_86053f00-f7bb-11df-9137-00144f02aabc.shtml

So, in other words, the defense strategy is to delay. Doesn't sound like they have much hope.

I believe that Biongiorno's importance to the defense is a political one regardless of her competence (or lack of) as a lawyer. The 11 December date was already pretty much a done deal prior to this hearing.

ETA: This quote from Broken_English:

TG5, main TGNews of Mediaset, has aired a more datailed report. The postponement has been granted to enable Bongiorno, who is a parliamentary, to participate both to trial hearings and to the works of parliament. All future hearings will be held on Saturday (december 11-18, january 15).

 

[Kaosium]

You're suggesting collusion between everyone involved in the prosecutor's office, the postal police, and the scientific police. All these people are willing to risk their carreers just because a cop made an incorrect statement. This makes no sense.

Of course it doesn't. However if the impetus was actually the one in charge of the investigation/prosecution then it makes a whole lot more sense. He made a bad call and then managed to convince himself of it and wouldn't re-evaluate it despite all the real evidence pointing to something far more mundane. When he then goes and files about a dozen more charges on the families of the accused, their lawyers, journalists, even bloggers overseas (!) he's kinda suggesting he's the sort you don't want to cross. Especially with his pending conviction for going after even more powerful people in a previous case. So he more or less gets what he wants, and he starts with a wide latitude, it's his job to investigate and prepare a case to take into the court.

The amazing thing is he managed to convince enough people that what looks like a tragic end to a break-in was really a staged break in, to hide the spontaneous conspiracy of three people who barely knew each other to murder a girl for ridiculous reasons or no reason at all. A remarkable feat given the real evidence points to one person with a history of break-ins.

 

[Alt+F4]

Not much hope because one of Sollecito's lawyers, who is getting paid money to represent Sollecito, wants to have her baby before starting the trial? If the pregnancy is the reason for the delay why would you assume its only because they have no hope of winning? Seriously do you think the poor mother who is in her final days of pregnancy should be standing in court? I seriously doubt the prosecution wants her there either. A pregnant woman will pull some sympathy from the judge, whether you want to believe that would happen or not.

I can understand her not wanting to work during her pregnancy. Someone posted that she was five months pregnant so why ask for a postponment until December if the baby isn't coming until March? In addition, she is probably going to take another two months off after that.

Ok, that puts us to May or June. I can't imagine AK and RS wanting to put off the appeal that long. I suspect that she will dismiss herself from the case at the December court date and RS defense will get another lawyer or proceed with just one.

 

[RoseMontague]

Of course it doesn't. However if the impetus was actually the one in charge of the investigation/prosecution then it makes a whole lot more sense. He made a bad call and then managed to convince himself of it and wouldn't re-evaluate it despite all the real evidence pointing to something far more mundane. When he then goes and files about a dozen more charges on the families of the accused, their lawyers, journalists, even bloggers overseas (!) he's kinda suggesting he's the sort you don't want to cross. Especially with his pending conviction for going after even more powerful people in a previous case. So he more or less gets what he wants, and he starts with a wide latitude, it's his job to investigate and prepare a case to take into the court.

The amazing thing is he managed to convince enough people that what looks like a tragic end to a break-in was really a staged break in, to hide the spontaneous conspiracy of three people who barely knew each other to murder a girl for ridiculous reasons or no reason at all. A remarkable feat given the real evidence points to one person with a history of break-ins.

Terrific post, Kaosium.
There is a new post at Less Wrong that expounds on this:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/35d/inherited_improbabilities_transferring_the_burden/

 

[Kaosium]

I can understand her not wanting to work during her pregnancy. Someone posted that she was five months pregnant so why ask for a postponment until December if the baby isn't coming until March? In addition, she is probably going to take another two months off after that.

Ok, that puts us to May or June. I can't imagine AK and RS wanting to put off the appeal that long. I suspect that she will dismiss herself from the case at the December court date and RS defense will get another lawyer or proceed with just one.

She's a member of the Italian Parliament, this delay is apparently because they have some important government work on the agenda she needs to be in Rome for.

 

[Jungle Jim]

Not much hope because one of Sollecito's lawyers, who is getting paid money to represent Sollecito, wants to have her baby before starting the trial? If the pregnancy is the reason for the delay why would you assume its only because they have no hope of winning? Seriously do you think the poor mother who is in her final days of pregnancy should be standing in court? I seriously doubt the prosecution wants her there either. A pregnant woman will pull some sympathy from the judge, whether you want to believe that would happen or not.

If the trail is to be delayed because of Bongiorno's pregnancy they will have to wait until Spring. She is five months pregnant.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/amanda-knox-appeal-italy-lawyer

 

[tsig]

Evidence is tricky. Sometimes it is a sign of guilt, and sometimes it turns up because someone is looking for signs of guilt.

In 1980, an Australian woman named Lindy Chamberlain was on a camping trip with her family, and a dingo snatched her baby. The story became a national sensation. Lots of people thought Chamberlain was lying and that she had murdered her child. Some thought it was a religious sacrifice, given that she and her husband were Seventh Day Adventists. And she seemed calm and detached in front of the TV cameras, like she wasn't bothered by what had happened. Pretty soon the push was on to prosecute her for murder. And there was no shortage of evidence:

- The baby's stretchsuit was found, turned inside-out. How could a dingo have done that?

- A stuffed stretchsuit like the baby's was dragged through the area where the baby had been snatched. The test stretchsuit ended up with charcoal on it, consistent with wildfires in the area - but there was no charcoal on the actual stretchsuit worn by the baby.

- Captive dingos were given a stretchsuit stuffed with meat. The type of damage they caused was completely different from what was done to the stretchsuit belonging to the baby.

- The pattern of bloodstains on the stretchsuit indicated that the baby had been held upright while it bled to death.

- A forensic expert testified that damage to the stretchsuit was done by scissors, not by dingo teeth.

- He also testified that an examination of the stretchsuit under a UV light revealed a human hand print, too small to be man's but too large to be that of an infant.

- Another forensic expert testified that she found blood on a pair of scissors taken from the Chamberlains' car.

- Chamberlain sent a blood-stained track suit, which she had been wearing when the baby disappeared, to the cleaners.

- Chamberlain's husband, Michael, admitted at the inquest that he had cleaned blood out of his car after the baby's disappearance.

- Police testified that they found blood inside the car.

Chamberlain was tried, convicted and sentenced to life in prison. But there were people who could see it was a railroad job. They realized that Chamberlain simply was not the sort of person who would murder her child. She was an emotionally stable, respectable woman with a solid marriage and two other children who were happy and well cared for. A group of 30 scientists signed a letter protesting the junk science that had helped convict Chamberlain. Wildlife experts confirmed many cases in which dingos had attacked infants or toddlers. Groups began forming around the country for the purpose of getting Chamberlain's conviction overturned. After two years, the authorities let her out of prison, and she and her husband went on a media campaign to convince the public of her innocence. It worked. A juror announced that she had changed her mind and believed Chamberlain was innocent. The story became the subject of a movie starring Meryl Streep. Now, more than 20 years after Lindy Chamberlain was released, Australians accept that prosecuting her was a tragic mistake.

But look at all the evidence they had.

I'm pretty sure the dingo didn't do it in this case.

 

[Alt+F4]

Of course it doesn't. However if the impetus was actually the one in charge of the investigation/prosecution then it makes a whole lot more sense. He made a bad call and then managed to convince himself of it and wouldn't re-evaluate it despite all the real evidence pointing to something far more mundane. When he then goes and files about a dozen more charges on the families of the accused, their lawyers, journalists, even bloggers overseas (!) he's kinda suggesting he's the sort you don't want to cross. Especially with his pending conviction for going after even more powerful people in a previous case. So he more or less gets what he wants, and he starts with a wide latitude, it's his job to investigate and prepare a case to take into the court.

All this power, all these people cowering in fear of him, yet he still got convicted! How'd that happen, if he runs everything?

The amazing thing is he managed to convince enough people that what looks like a tragic end to a break-in was really a staged break in, to hide the spontaneous conspiracy of three people who barely knew each other to murder a girl for ridiculous reasons or no reason at all. A remarkable feat given the real evidence points to one person with a history of break-ins.

It is pretty amazing isn't it? How does he control the postal police, the scientific police and the prosecutor's office all at the same time? How does he get all those people to lie and risk their jobs?

 

[RoseMontague]

I can understand her not wanting to work during her pregnancy. Someone posted that she was five months pregnant so why ask for a postponment until December if the baby isn't coming until March? In addition, she is probably going to take another two months off after that.

Ok, that puts us to May or June. I can't imagine AK and RS wanting to put off the appeal that long. I suspect that she will dismiss herself from the case at the December court date and RS defense will get another lawyer or proceed with just one.

Actually this allows her to work her parlimentary duties during the week and this appeal on Saturdays as I pointed out in my (just edited post above) about this.

 

[Chris C]

Witnesses lied? Is that why they were convicted?



Incompetent investigators? Is that why they were convicted?

Prosecutions TOD is epic fail.



Corrupt prosecution? Is that why they were convicted.

Maybe it would be easier to come up with list of people in Perugia who haven't lied, planted evidence or performed professional misconduct in this case.

Lets see, A witness that has been proven to have given incorrect testimony places Knox and Sollecito near the Murder Scene when they are claiming to be at Sollecito's house.

If the jury thought Curatolo lied, do you think they still would convict them?

Quintavalle claims knox was eye humping a bottle of bleach before walking out with nothing. This is a 2nd witness that claims to have scene knox when she was suppose to have been sleeping. Yet, 3 witnesses dispute this testimony, one being a cop that you are so quick to defend. So either the cop is lying or Quintavalle is. So now we got a 2nd person lying to the court.

If the jury thought Curatolo and Quintavalle lied to them would they still convict?

The ToD is like we both agree Complete fail. Which also brings up Nara's scream. Did that happen? Did she actually hear the rustling of the leaves in the driveway? She would have been laughed out of an American court room. However, this is Italy and the prosecution still used her testimony. Plus you could throw in the olive guy.

So would the jury still have convicted Knox/Sollecito knowing that Curatolo, Kokomani, Capezzali and Quintavalle all gave false testimony, plus the ToD is a load of crap. If you where sitting on that jury you would honestly convict them, knowing that the prosecution knew all 4 of these witnesses just testified to a load of bs, and that the prosecutions ToD is fabricated to fit the witness testimony.

 

[christianahannah]

I believe that Biongiorno's importance to the defense is a political one regardless of her competence (or lack of) as a lawyer. The 11 December date was already pretty much a done deal prior to this hearing.

ETA: This quote from Broken_English:

I think the court will try to accommodate Biongiorno as much as possible. Wasn't this also done during the first trial with her commitments to Parliament?

And while some may consider this request for a delay a stalling tactic on Biongiorno's part, she is 44 years old and this her first pregnancy. I am not surprised that there may be an abundance of caution by her and her doctor.

 

[RoseMontague]

All this power, all these people cowering in fear of him, yet he still got convicted! How'd that happen, if he runs everything?



It is pretty amazing isn't it? How does he control the postal police, the scientific police and the prosecutor's office all at the same time? How does he get all those people to lie and risk their jobs?

Almost as amazing as Quintavalle' memory, Nara's hearing, and Curatolo's timekeeping and ability to see invisible buses.

 

[Chris C]

I can understand her not wanting to work during her pregnancy. Someone posted that she was five months pregnant so why ask for a postponment until December if the baby isn't coming until March? In addition, she is probably going to take another two months off after that.

Ok, that puts us to May or June. I can't imagine AK and RS wanting to put off the appeal that long. I suspect that she will dismiss herself from the case at the December court date and RS defense will get another lawyer or proceed with just one.

I dont know, I was responding to someone that was saying she was pregnant and thats the reason for the postponement. Even I used the statement, "if the pregnancy is the reason for the delay"

 

[Alt+F4]

If the trail is to be delayed because of Bongiorno's pregnancy they will have to wait until Spring. She is five months pregnant.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/21/amanda-knox-appeal-italy-lawyer

From that story:

She will offer testimony from Guede's cellmate, child killer Mario Alessi, that Guede told him Knox and Sollecito were not present when Kercher was stabbed repeatedly.

Yikes, for RS's sake it might be better if she stays in Rome.

 

[Chris C]

From that story:



Yikes, for RS's sake it might be better if she stays in Rome.

Actually, how will Rudy go about denying the allegation from a prisoner? Will he have to show up in court and testify or will a hand written letter suffice? Maybe Machiavelli would know.

 

[Alt+F4]

Almost as amazing as Quintavalle' memory, Nara's hearing, and Curatolo's timekeeping and ability to see invisible buses.

How did Mignini get them to lie? He seems to be the mastermind of everything in a Darth Vader sort of way.

 

[Chris C]

How did Mignini get them to lie? He seems to be the mastermind of everything in a Darth Vader sort of way.

Yet we know the stories are false. Its amazing what a news reporter will get someone to say, then leave the poor witnesses to back up those statements. Though I'm not sure whether nara told the media or the prosecution first. Yet if Mignini is as smart as everyone says he is, surely he saw through the lies. Why didn't he question their intentions? If your telling me Mignini didn't see through the lies, then your saying he is incompetent. Sure a charismatic person can fool a jury, but apparently Mignini either fooled himself or knowingly used witnesses that he knew to be lying.

 

[RoseMontague]

How did Mignini get them to lie? He seems to be the mastermind of everything in a Darth Vader sort of way.

I think the so called "journalists" that brought the witnesses to police need to be questioned about that. Interesting that good old Quint had a memory fail about his TV interview that the defense proceeded to show in court and that also seemed to slip Massei's mind.

 

[Alt+F4]

Actually, how will Rudy go about denying the allegation from a prisoner? Will he have to show up in court and testify or will a hand written letter suffice? Maybe Machiavelli would know.

He already did write a letter stating that what the baby-killer said was a lie. Does the defense really want Rudy to testify and for the first time in public say that RS and AK are the killers? Why take that risk when the baby-killer's story is total crap?