Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

[dafydd]

Agreed. I think maatorc needs to either explain this arcane drivel in the context of 'evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth' or naff off and start another thread in which it won't be quite so irrelevant.

My late wife,although a wonderful and sensible woman,had one blind spot.Theosophy.I read all Blavatsky's works but never did get the point of all the arcnana.Perhaps maatorc could explain.

 

[Akhenaten]

My late wife,although a wonderful and sensible woman,had one blind spot.Theosophy.I read all Blavatsky's works but never did get the point of all the arcnana.Perhaps maatorc could explain.

It would be interesting enough, but I get the distinct impression that explanations aren't part of the act or we would have seen some by now.

Like DOC's often hinted-at but never presented evidence.

 

[dafydd]

It would be interesting enough, but I get the distinct impression that explanations aren't part of the act or we would have seen some by now.

Like DOC's often hinted-at but never presented evidence.

The ever elusive evidence.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I'm done repeating myself.

Liar.

Well, you can be killed for leaving Islam according to Sharia Law, which is not conducive to converting to Christianity, and now that India is becoming more modern who knows what can happen. Maybe many of them will start to look to a religion with one God and not thousands (or millions) of gods; and many there might get tired of not being able to marry who they want to marry {Note: over 20 in India have been killed in recent months for marrying outside of their clan]. Also Benny Hinn drew about a million to a Crusade in India a few years ago.

And some might know Christianity is growing in China and Africa. Unfortunately this is not the case in the US and Europe -- funny how that phenomenon is happening concurrently with what appears to be the decline of the US and Europe (economically and prestige-wise) on the world stage.

 

[Lothian]

It would be interesting enough, but I get the distinct impression that explanations aren't part of the act or we would have seen some by now.

He thinks

that it is too complex a subject for him to explain to lay persons. People need to increase their knowledge in order for them to have worthwhile communication with him. Even if people have a good knowledge of the subject it is still well below that required for a meaningful conversation.

In order to actually converse with him on the subject you need to reach a specific knowledge level. That level coincidently is a level where the truth of it is so obvious that you no longer need to ask any questions.

So the fact that you don’t believe it and you feel the need to question him is sufficient to show him that you don’t know enough​

As he displays all the classic symptoms of cognitive dissonance I expect maatorc to reject this analysis. Unfortunately I am unable to offer him help in this matter over the internet.

 

[Akhenaten]

He should place his trust in Aberhaten. Only then would the truth be revealed.

 

[Sun Countess]

Well, you can be killed for leaving Islam according to Sharia Law, which is not conducive to converting to Christianity, and now that India is becoming more modern who knows what can happen.

Maybe they'll throw off silly old superstitions entirely. We can only hope.

Maybe many of them will start to look to a religion with one God and not thousands (or millions) of gods; and many there might get tired of not being able to marry who they want to marry

Why would they need a religion with one god to be able to marry who they want to? If they toss off the silly superstitions and primitive traditions, they'll be able to marry who they want without worshipping any invisible imaginary men.

And some might know Christianity is growing in China and Africa. Unfortunately this is not the case in the US and Europe -- funny how that phenomenon is happening concurrently with what appears to be the decline of the US and Europe (economically and prestige-wise) on the world stage.

Funny how Canada is doing better than the US right now. Maybe it's all the atheism, or maybe it's because we allow gay people to get married. Correlation games are fun!

I think several denominations might have some special revelation or knowledge about some particular single aspect of Christianity but I think most are part of the same so called "Body of Christ" or "The Church".

Who's giving these churches their special revelations? Is Jesus playing favorites from the beyond? If something is important to know, shouldn't that be shared with the rest of the class?

I think being in one denomination over another is not going to keep you from going to heaven if you believe "Jesus is Lord".

You think you know what it takes to get to heaven, but you know the new testament writers were telling the truth. Hmmm. Interesting.

Christ said I am the vine and you are the "branches". He didn't say I am the vine and you are the branch.

But aren't all the branches supposed to be on the same tree? Shouldn't there be one clear message that all Christians should be following? Why did they break off into so many different sects? The Muslims have two sects, and Christians have thousand (maybe millions). Is that more evidence that Christianity is less true than Isam, or is it proof that Christianity is just like Hinduism?

 

[Lothian]

Christ said I am the vine and you are the "branches". He didn't say I am the vine and you are the branch.

He is reported to have said

15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.​

Seems a very strange thing for an omnisentient god to say. Has he never heard of grafting? Swapping branches onto different root stocks is dead easy.

 

[carlitos]

Special Pleading! Get your Special Pleading here!!! Get it while it's hot!

Well, you can be killed for leaving Islam according to Sharia Law,

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Deuteronomy 13:6-9

6"(A)If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, '(B)Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,

7of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end),

8(C)you shall not yield to him or listen to him; (D)and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him.

9"(E)But you shall surely kill him; (F)your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.​

Killing apostates seems to be common to Islam and Christianity. What does DOC say about this?

Deuteronomy 17:3-5

3 and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, 4 and it is told you and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently, and if it is true and certain that such an abomination has been done in Israel, 5 then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones.

Stone them with stones is a bit reduntant, but even so, here we have the Christian bible telling us to kill non-believers. What's so bad about Islam, again?

2 Chronicles 15:13 (New Living Translation)
13 They agreed that anyone who refused to seek the Lord, the God of Israel, would be put to death—whether young or old, man or woman.

Put to death? At least God in his wisdom saw that they agreed to kill the "young and old," so we wouldn't have to worry about the little non-believers growing up. Good job.

And, veering back to the New Testament, it was kind of Jesus to remind us that he had not come to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them. Great.

Oh, and DOC - Would you please tell us a bit more specifically which denomination is right? I appreciate your last note, where you almost got there, but why not just tell us which branch of Christianity gets your 10% every Sunday? Are you embarassed to say? Let me remind you that Jesus told you to "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation." You are sort of doing this, but what if I join the wrong church as a result?

That big list must have been intimidating for you. How about just a small yes / no list? Let's say that I am considering re-joining the church. If I choose one of the following, what happens?

Catholicism - will I be saved? yes / no
Lutheran (ELCA) - will I be saved? yes / no
Church of Christ, Scientist - will I be saved? yes / no
Southern Baptist - will I be saved? yes / no
Mormon - will I be saved? yes / no
Seventh Day Adventist - will I be saved? yes / no


Again, which church is your choice? Remember, as Paul told the Romans - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Don't be ashamed. Tell us which church is right!

 

[pizzadeliveryninja]

Well, you can be killed for leaving Islam according to Sharia Law, which is not conducive to converting to Christianity, and now that India is becoming more modern who knows what can happen. Maybe many of them will start to look to a religion with one God and not thousands (or millions) of gods; and many there might get tired of not being able to marry who they want to marry {Note: over 20 in India have been killed in recent months for marrying outside of their clan]. Also Benny Hinn drew about a million to a Crusade in India a few years ago.

And some might know Christianity is growing in China and Africa. Unfortunately this is not the case in the US and Europe -- funny how that phenomenon is happening concurrently with what appears to be the decline of the US and Europe (economically and prestige-wise) on the world stage.

What is the modernisation that is happening in India which you think may lead to Christianisation? How does this compare to the modernity in the US and Europe where Christianity is declining?

Is modernity conducive for christianity or not?

 

[Hokulele]

Hm, Australia's economy is doing very well, and they have an atheist in their highest elected office (IIRC). Clearly the US needs to elect more atheists in order to compete!

 

[Akhenaten]

Hm, Australia's economy is doing very well, and they have an atheist in their highest elected office (IIRC). Clearly the US needs to elect more atheists in order to compete!

'Specially redheads. More redheads is always good.

 

[Lothian]

Hm, Australia's economy is doing very well, and they have an atheist in their highest elected office (IIRC). Clearly the US needs to elect more atheists in order to compete!

No, what you want for national prosperity is to follow the example of a strongly Christian country like Rwanda. If there is not enough money to go round all the population, enlist the help of the clergy and murder 800,000 citizens.

Really it is just God’s law requiring the stoning to death of your gluttonous son updated for the modern world.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Killing apostates seems to be common to Islam and Christianity. What does DOC say about this?

I quoted this 4(!) times* in the other DOC thread.

At first he tried to weasel out claiming that it was followers not following god's laws. Then I pointed out to him that this is the actual decree, not a following.

And I'm still waiting for an answer since...

* Trying to speak DOC's language to finally get an answer. Apperantly counting your posts is important in weaselish.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Well, you can be killed for leaving Islam according to Sharia Law, which is not conducive to converting to Christianity

Special pleading much DOC?
You were asked before - What about the jews?
Why are there still jews around? If jebus had a real life revelation in front of people back then why didn't they all rush and become christians?

Heck, how come in the many many many pogroms across history didn't the jews just convert to christianity?

You're saying that people are too scared to switch to the "right" faith when their lives are in danger but jews refused to switch to the "right" faith despite their lives being in danger?

What does that say about your religion if people are willing to die not to join it?

and now that India is becoming more modern who knows what can happen.

Is this suppose to prove something?

Maybe many of them will start to look to a religion with one God and not thousands (or millions) of gods;

Or they could dump all this garbage all together.

and many there might get tired of not being able to marry who they want to marry

Did you just equate christianity with the right to marry whomever you want?!?
Seriously?!? Prop 8 much?

{Note: over 20 in India have been killed in recent months for marrying outside of their clan]

And this is relavent how?

. Also Benny Hinn drew about a million to a Crusade in India a few years ago.

Are you actually trying to give Benny Hinn as a positive example for anything DOC? Seriously?

And some might know Christianity is growing in China and Africa. Unfortunately this is not the case in the US and Europe

You mean that countries that actually seen your religion in action reject it?
Do you not realize this is yet more proof that your religion is a meaningless fairytale?

 

[Lucian]

In the past, DOC has posted gushingly about the Catholic Church; I always assumed he was Catholic.

Surely if he were Catholic, he would have a better understanding of Catho....

Yeah, he could be Catholic.

 

[Cleon]

Surely if he were Catholic, he would have a better understanding of Catho....

Yeah, he could be Catholic.

 

[kmortis]

Killing apostates seems to be common to Islam and Christianity. What does DOC say about this?



Stone them with stones is a bit reduntant, but even so, here we have the Christian bible telling us to kill non-believers. What's so bad about Islam, again?

Put to death? At least God in his wisdom saw that they agreed to kill the "young and old," so we wouldn't have to worry about the little non-believers growing up. Good job.

And, veering back to the New Testament, it was kind of Jesus to remind us that he had not come to abolish the old laws, but to fulfill them. Great.

Oh, and DOC - Would you please tell us a bit more specifically which denomination is right? I appreciate your last note, where you almost got there, but why not just tell us which branch of Christianity gets your 10% every Sunday? Are you embarassed to say? Let me remind you that Jesus told you to "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation." You are sort of doing this, but what if I join the wrong church as a result?

That big list must have been intimidating for you. How about just a small yes / no list? Let's say that I am considering re-joining the church. If I choose one of the following, what happens?

Catholicism - will I be saved? yes / no
Lutheran (ELCA) - will I be saved? yes / no
Church of Christ, Scientist - will I be saved? yes / no
Southern Baptist - will I be saved? yes / no
Mormon - will I be saved? yes / no
Seventh Day Adventist - will I be saved? yes / no


Again, which church is your choice? Remember, as Paul told the Romans - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Don't be ashamed. Tell us which church is right!

I quoted this 4(!) times* in the other DOC thread.

At first he tried to weasel out claiming that it was followers not following god's laws. Then I pointed out to him that this is the actual decree, not a following.

And I'm still waiting for an answer since...

* Trying to speak DOC's language to finally get an answer. Apperantly counting your posts is important in weaselish.

The standard answer is that all the quotations carlitos provided are from the OT. Much of the old law went away with Jesus. Of course, it's very difficult to get any Christian Theologian or apologist to pin down which tenants of the OT went away and which ones stayed. As far as I can tell, the dietary ones are out (in line with Peter's vision in Acts), but many of the morality ones are still around.

The trick is to find a place where Jesus or Paul command death for apostacy. I don't think there is one, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

So, strictly speaking, DOC is correct. Christianity does differ from Islam in that there's no direct call for death to those who leave the faith. This doesn't mean that over the centuries that people haven't used OT justification for it. Shocking, I know. People using religion to justify xenophobia.

 

[carlitos]

Well, I paraphrased this in my post, from the NT:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

So, unless heaven and earth have disappeared, it looks like those old laws are still in effect, no? I mean, if edicts in the Old Testament are now null and void, why can't you buy beer on Sunday in a lot of places?

 

[kmortis]

Well, I paraphrased this in my post, from the NT:

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"

So, unless heaven and earth have disappeared, it looks like those old laws are still in effect, no? I mean, if edicts in the Old Testament are now null and void, why can't you buy beer on Sunday in a lot of places?

I know, but the problem is that Jesus had a lot on hin mind there in the last week. What with the Gates of Hell to tear down, the Damned souls to judge and all that...I don't think his mind was in his earthly work. Certain liberties have to be taken with anything he says.

Actually, I would still prefer a direct quote from either Jesus or Paul saying explictly that apostates should be killed. The Law consisted of 600+ items, and some were kept some were not, Jesus' perviously quoted prohibition be damned. It was superceeded by Peter's vision in Acts.




Or is this like Star Wars fans getting into the "Han Shot First" argument? We both know that we're discussing fictional characters in fictional situations, but it's REALLY fun to nitpick the other?