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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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This is a good example of the divide on this issue [and in a much more important field but thats OT]

Not all of us hold the opinions of 'an ex-FBI man on TV' in such high regard.

Some of us subject politicians, clerics, analysts, wanabees, and the cuties on the shopping channel to scrutiny before accepting their claims.
You want respect for 'position' - find a Christian and wow him with a guy in a funny hat or a fake tan.
As for me - I don't buy, I shovel.

I know some don't, I just find the 'reasons' I've read undermine their analysis of him. I never heard a single argument that discredited his forensic ability, though I do think he's not as careful a writer as he could be, which hardly affects his expertise. Point being, he actually knows something about this, and while the case might seem overstated, that fits with a guy who sees something ridiculous and acts out on it.

Moore - He is either a vulture on the make or a clown - I suspect the former.
Either way !!
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Oh, no, I think one of the PMFers hit it on the head: he's a crusader. The kind whose spirit soars when hearing "The Impossible Dream." I thought Sancho was funnier, and sometimes tilting at windmills can make you look silly, but other times the sort willing to "march into hell in a heavenly cause" change the world around them.
 
Halides, I should have added a post-script. I was merely using Kaosium's own words and replacing the details, to show how his reasoning applies to the opposite argument as well. I think even if you think Amanda and Raffaele are innocent, you have to see how silly it is for Kaosium to say it's laughable for mere people on the internet to think they know more than those in authority (in his case, Steve Moore), since at the end of the day, you guys are posters on the internet claiming to know the truth more than the authorities. How can you say that your scenario is possible and probable, but on the other hand, that it is silly for some "clown with a website" to think that he can point out errors that Steve Moore made? That is the only point I was trying to make, is that he is being completely one-sided when he said that. Why is it silly for TJMK to point out errors that an FBI agent made, but not silly for you guys to point out errors the judges and police made? He could have simply said that he disagreed with the website, and he thinks that Steve Moore is correct, and he would not made himself look so hypocritical.
 
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But you don't find it breathtaking how some clowns on a forum could think they were 'discrediting' many years of combined judicial experience by the judges and lawyers with trivial crap they found on youtube and the internet? ;)

Not when those eighteen or whatever judges with hundreds of years of experience try to tell us pi equals 3.00. That's part of being a skeptic. It however does not extend to pretending ad hominem, semantics and pedantry 'discredit' twenty five years of FBI experience.

That's just a smear, and that usually doesn't speak well of the arguments available to the ones doing the smearing.
 
While the noise violation was brought up during Amanda's June 2009 questioning it isn't mentioned by the court. From this paragraph I don't think it played any part in the court's verdict.

The motivations page 391:

Treehorn claimed that the Daily Mail piece written about the noise violation was used against Amanda at her trial. Thus it wasn't the noise violation per se under discussion, but the ridiculous article itself. Do you know if that was actually used at trial?
 
As I scan the past couple pages, I am somewhat surprised at the dramatic degradation of documentation cited to support most pro innocent arguments.

Examples:
1) Curt Knox said
2) Steve Moore said
3) Bruce Fisher said
4) Janet Huff said
5) Anne Bremner said
6) West Seattle Herald said
7) My granddaughters and boyfriends said

Needless to say, each and every one of the first 6 above sources are to say the least, *completely* biased and one sided.
The 7th needs no explanation for incongruous use
I am dismayed to see their dismal preponderance in an 'evidence based' lively discussion Forum for skeptics.

Since past arguments here have also boasted about how much more scientific and 'evidence based' members of this Forum must always be compared to PMF, this degradation of documentation used to support innocence arguments is definitely disappointing, but understandable.

I agree 100%. There's no place here for things like "she said". It reminds me a lot of....she yelled, "You are always behaving like a little saint.
Now we will show you. Now we will make you have sex." :rolleyes:
 
Do you support release of the hard drive to Toshiba to see whether the data can be recovered?

I would support the release of the HDD to Toshiba.

I have a nagging suspicion though that no photos would be found. Which person who is spending time abroad is going to take photos, take the effort to upload them onto their laptop and then never put up those pics on their Myspace or facebook accounts or even email them to some friends or family members.
 
I would support the release of the HDD to Toshiba.

I have a nagging suspicion though that no photos would be found. Which person who is spending time abroad is going to take photos, take the effort to upload them onto their laptop and then never put up those pics on their Myspace or facebook accounts or even email them to some friends or family members.

A stoned college student who plans to do it 'later.'

Why would they want to pay to have the hard drives sent to Japan if there was nothing on them? It's not like the photos are going to break the case against them.

BTW, one thing that has puzzled me: do you know why the hard drives have to go to Japan? What piece of equipment or expertise could be needed for hard drive data retrieval that wouldn't fit on an airplane to Perugia?
 
There would have been at least 2 cameras at the Chocolate festival

I have a nagging suspicion though that no photos would be found. Which person who is spending time abroad is going to take photos, take the effort to upload them onto their laptop and then never put up those pics on their Myspace or facebook accounts or even email them to some friends or family members.
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Quite right, Amazer.

Now, Meredith's photos from Halloween were already floating around the cyberworld less then 24 hours after Halloween. If there had been some jolly photos from the Chocolate festival, I would imagine they would be either:

- floating around Internet
- on Merediths camera / phone
- on Merediths computer

Maybe Meredith forgot her camera for the Chocolate festival and just let Amanda take all the photos. And then Amanda forgot to send Meredith any (or to any other family or friends).

Yeah, right.
 
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Are you saying that your home washing machine, just washing a normal load of clothes, takes almost 3 to complete?!
In Europe, machines take much longer than in the US, as they have to heat the water. Mine also typically takes 2 1/2 hours to wash, and another 3 to dry (it's a Candy washer/dryer). The bigger machine that I used to use took 1 1/2 hours to wash.
 
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Quite right, Amazer.

Now, Meredith's photos from Halloween were already floating around the cyberworld less then 24 hours after Halloween. If there had been some jolly photos from the Chocolate festival, I would imagine they would be either:

- floating around Internet
- on Merediths camera / phone
- on Merediths computer

Maybe Meredith forgot her camera for the Chocolate festival and just let Amanda take all the photos. And then Amanda forgot to send Meredith any (or to any other family or friends).

Yeah, right.

However, if that were the case you'd think the prosecution would be delighted to send those hard drives to Japan, after all if those pictures weren't there they'd have caught Amanda 'lying' on the stand.

Those 'lies' are so very important now, aren't they? After all it's about all that's left of the case against her that doesn't embarrass the prosecution.

What are these 'lies' again? I keep hearing about a 'mountain of evidence' but I've only seen the tip of the iceberg when SomeAlibi came here and revealed one of them was the 'damning' difference of whether they slept in until about 9 AM, or if one of them got up and answered a phone and played a music file and then slept until 9AM.
 
Machiavelli,

Filomena testified that most of what was in the wash was Meredith's but there were some things such as towels about which she was not sure. There is no evidence that Amanda's clothes were in there. Moreover, Amanda testified that she used the laundromat in preference to the machine, partly on account of its having a dryer.

__________________

Do we even know that Meredith turned on the washing machine, prior to her leaving the cottage on the afternoon of November 1st?

Amanda didn't say so in her November 4th email, nor did she say so in her trial testimony. And there's no mention of this in Raffaele's Diary. So,....did Filomena---who was at the cottage briefly that afternoon--- mention this in her trial testimony?

///
 
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I agree. It is also quite strange that Amanda didn't take out the washing which contained also her own cloths, and instead she was concerned to carry a mop with bucket to dry a (almost dry yet) floor in another house. In fact, on the same point, it is something that allows to think that maybe Meredith was not the one who put the washing in.

Where do you get the impression any of the clothes were Amanda's? As halides said, Filomena recognized nearly everything in the washing as Meredith's, except for a few items which she wasn't sure about, and which were also most likely Meredith's. Why would you assume those things were Amanda's?
 
Yes, Amanda texted Meredith several times I believe, but Maredith didn't text her back that we know of, we do know for sure that they didn't meet up and we know Meredith friends didn't like Amanda so it is not 'quite the contrary in fact' as you've stated above.

Yes she did, there was an exchange of friendly texts between them on Halloween. The details were posted here a while back, and you can find them in Amanda's testimony.
 
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Quite right, Amazer.

Now, Meredith's photos from Halloween were already floating around the cyberworld less then 24 hours after Halloween. If there had been some jolly photos from the Chocolate festival, I would imagine they would be either:

- floating around Internet
- on Merediths camera / phone
- on Merediths computer

Maybe Meredith forgot her camera for the Chocolate festival and just let Amanda take all the photos. And then Amanda forgot to send Meredith any (or to any other family or friends).

Yeah, right.

There is no dispute that they attended the Festival together. Let me ask you this then: Do you think it is more likely that they took some pictures or they didn't?

Kids today take pictures of just about anything, it would seem to me to be more unusual that they did not take any pictures at all rather than they haven't yet sent these pictures out to share with others. To me, this is just common sense. The other thing about disputing the possibility of pictures on the computer is that it is arguing against information that could help in Amanda's defense or help discredit her testimony. In the search for truth the main thing is to determine the facts. If it is there it helps her in that it shows her relationship with Meredith was friendly just a short time before she supposedly killed her; if it isn't it shows she was not being truthful. Arguing against trying to determine this information is like covering your eyes and saying that you do not want to know the answer.
 
How can a scenario of sexual assault and murder (which it was) be pornography?

Kermit, I read your post to my husband and we both had a hearty laugh.
Glad to hear you enjoy my posts

How do I know Mignini's a wino? ..... Obviously, I jest.
I'm relieved. I hope that if you have any followers amongst the FOAKers, The Entourage in general, or any newbies who are trying to understand the characters in this play, they take note.

The pervert part is easy to support, though -- Kaosium has said it best in a number of posts today using the word "pornographic" to describe Mignini's depiction of the scene of the crime. The guilters always seem to overlook the fact that the proposed scenario sprang from Mignini's imagination on the 5th or 6th of November without ONE IOTA of evidence to suggest it.
The word pornographic is Kaosium's, not the investigation's. If you're referring to a sexual assault by more than one person which culminated in murder, then let's take a look at the initial elements which could lead to that scenario (be it right or wrong - I'm only interesting here in understanding if the investigators were reasonable in considering this scenario):

Initial observation: There's a body with a slashed throat.
Initial conclusion: There has been a murder.

Initial observation: The victim is a girl. She is semi-naked. Her bra has been slashed (later there is DNA found on her genitals). Her boyfriend is in another city. Prior to the murder she had been with her friends and made no mention of having a date.
Initial conclusion: There has been a sexual assault.

Initial observation: Luminol reveals different sized footprints between the bedroom and the bathroom. Some of the larger footprints could belong to a male or males. Some of the smaller footprints could belong to a female or females.
Initial conclusion for creating a scenario: There was more than one person.

Initial observation: Neighbour states hearing the running of more than one person.
Initial conclusion for creating a scenario: There was more than one person

Initial observation: Police officers observe that one of the roommates acts bizarrely (cartwheels in a police station while waiting to be questioned, hitting her head ... nothing incriminating in itself, but it sure draws attention). Her boyfriend insists in being with her during all questioning. Their alibis are vague and don't really jive. On the 5th, Raffaele says that Amanda made him tell a pack of lies and that in fact she was not in his flat during the time the crime took place. On the 5th, Amanda places herself in the cottage (I'm still not sure if - and in which statement that was or wasn't accepted in court - she may have placed Raffaele in the cottage) and implicates a third person who she says was the actual attacker and murderer.
Initial theory:The police create a theory of a sexual attack gone wrong, one which escalated into murder.

Why do you guys not find that weird?
Why do you find that weird?

This has been a long and complex case. Along the way there is no doubt that mistakes have been made. Initially assigning the Nike print to Raffaele was a notable example, but that's why suspects have lawyers. Giobbi should have avoiding stating "case closed", when he knows that from the initial compilation of data to closing an investigation, over a year can go by. Matteini is faulted for describing in definite terms a sexual assault gone wrong in her initial report which sent RS, AK and Patrick to jail but such a report requires a description of the criminal scenario. Maybe it should be compared to other such reports in Italy to see if verbs are conjugated in present perfect or conditional, and if in general it's conditional she could change her style. Again, not even Matteini would state at that point that the scenario in her report just a few days after the crime would exactly reflect the case that the prosecution would present in court well over a year later after a lengthy and complex investigation.

And why do you not find it weird that you feel the need to defend Mignini, who would sue me for slander if he could find me? He's not exactly helpless, guys.
I don't feel the need to defend Mignini. I don't know him, I'll never know him. I'm interested in this case. If Mignini retires tomorrow, this case won't start over again.

Now, if the prosecutor of a complex case is the object of a multi-level campaign to discredit him, I think it's normal that he tries to defend his honour and integrity.

I really don't think Mignini is very interested in you, sorry to say. But as the media gets bigger and more formal, then - to use your questions - don't you think it would be weird for him not to defend himself?

If a (supposed) journalist like Steve Shay writes that certain unnamed persons say that Mignini is mentally unstable, well, Mr. Shay should make a minimal attempt to be professional about it (identify theses persons, or who they are associated with, and at least contact Mignini for his version, if the "mental instability" comment is really a news item and not just a burp from a FOAKer).

In the same way, Steve could read your post about Mignini being a "wino" and publish an article stating that certain unnamed persons say that Mignini has a problem with alcohol.

When on top of that (or as part of that), there's an overall PR campaign managed by an expensive company that works with Boeing and other corporations, and its website describes that one of its ways of getting a message out is to pay journalists and media experts, well, I get the feeling that Mignini is the David and the Marriott PR campaign the Goliath.

(((Do you honestly think that "John Q Kelly" knows as much about this case as even you? Where is "John Q" right now? Spending his paycheck? He's not following the case now, nor did he ever follow the case beyond the few minutes he spent reviewing the talking point cue cards that were prepared for him. Yet more people saw him than have ever heard of Mignini)))
 
Where are paparazzi when you need them?

There is no dispute that they attended the Festival together. Let me ask you this then: Do you think it is more likely that they took some pictures or they didn't?

Kids today take pictures of just about anything, it would seem to me to be more unusual that they did not take any pictures
- Um, as for "no dispute they attended the Chocolate Festival", I would like to get further information from Meredith's family or friends. Let's assume that they went together: did they stay together at the festival? did they interact? did Amanda or Meredith take off with other friends upon seeing them? ((Meredith and Amanda also went to the music concert together, and I don't think that Amanda spent much time talking to Meredith, but rather getting to know Raffaele)).

- You're right, kids today take photos of everything, so where are Meredith's photos?

- I've got no problem with sending the computer disk anywhere to get it recovered. The most noise I hear about happy photos on Amanda's disk comes from pro-Amanda posters on sites like this, not from her lawyers, so I'm not sure if this is a key issue for her legal strategy (maybe it is, but I see them more concerned about the Double DNA Knife, as they should be).
 
Initial observation: Luminol reveals different sized footprints between the bedroom and the bathroom. Some of the larger footprints could belong to a male or males. Some of the smaller footprints could belong to a female or females.
Initial conclusion for creating a scenario: There was more than one person.

Wasn't the conclusion 'Amanda did it because these Luminol reactions indicate that the crime scene has been cleaned up, despite the fact that the floor is still dirty and they test negative for blood?

Initial observation: Neighbour states hearing the running of more than one person.
Initial conclusion for creating a scenario: There was more than one person

Nara 'miracle ear' Capezalli was even able to tell what in direction people were running just by listening:-

'PM Mignini: ".... this iron stairway where does it lead to?"
Witness: "Well it goes from the carpark and ends up at the Via del Melo, where there is an iron gate. And shorty afterwards to Via Pinturicchio"
PM Mignini: "Someone was climbing these stairs, this iron stairway.”
Witness: "Running"
PM Mignini: "Running, a single person or more than one?"
Witness: "At that point I heard a single person"
PM Mignini: "And someone else .... but was there someone else?
Witness: "Well, someone ran away from the driveway toward Via del Bulagaio." '

She can also tell whether people are running on leaves, gravel, or iron staircases. And all this through double-glazed windows. And by the way calling Nara a 'neighbour' of the cottage is an extreme stretch.


Initial observation On the 5th, Raffaele says that Amanda made him tell a pack of lies and that in fact she was not in his flat during the time the crime took place.

The police lied to them and said to each of them that the other one had incriminated them, resulting in the confusing statements.
 
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