Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

To divert attention from himself, i.e. to make it look like an outsider had entered the house.

And this is the point where, traditionally, certain people will guffaw and say something like: "Oh yeah, right! Guede - a burglar - staged the scene to make it look like a burglar broke in and killed Meredith! Hahahahaha!"

But if the break-in were staged (and I don't believe it was), then - as you say - Guede had almost as much motivation for staging it (if he were the lone assailant) than Knox and Sollecito would have done if they were culpable.

Why? Well if Guede were the lone assailant and he got in without breaking in, this implies that Meredith would have let him in herself. This in itself implies that Guede was known to Meredith by sight: it's very unlikely that Meredith - in the house on her own - would have opened the door to someone she didn't know at 9pm on a dark November night.

So, if Guede was let in by Meredith, then he attacked and killed her, he might very well have realised (correctly) that he couldn't just unlock the front door and leave, since the police would assume (correctly) that Meredith had let her killer in. And Guede would have known that the universe of people who a) were known to Meredith, at least by sight, b) were in Perugia that night, and c) had no alibi, would be very small. And he would know that his name would be high up on that fairly small list.

So by staging a break-in, Guede would, at a stroke, greatly expand the universe of potential assailants. Technically, any male between the ages of around 16 and 60 who didn't have an alibi for that evening was now a potential suspect. And of course while the police would start by looking at habitual burglars, they could not be anywhere near certain that the killer would have come from within their midst.

So, by staging the burglary, Guede might have gone from being one of a group of - say - 10 suspects (men known well enough by Meredith that she would have let them into the house, who were in Perugia, and who had no alibi) to being one of a group of potentially tens of thousands of suspects.

 

[Mary_H]

Are you claiming that Rudy was NOT an outsider?

No, Kermit is. Along with Rudy's entire defense team.

 

[Amazer]

I don't think he avoided it. He just didn't knock all of it off the ledge.

The reports i've seen claimed that the glass was undisturbed after it fell. This clearly doesn't square with what you think happened here.

You want to make this into an impossible feat, but it's not.

I agree it is not impossible. Never claimed that it's impossible. I do however think that the activities that you propose are (very) unlikely.

I am reminded of the people who have expended an enormous effort to convince the world that an airliner could not possibly collapse a skyscraper.

Comments like this do nothing to further the discussion. What were you hoping to achieve when making this comment?

 

[christianahannah]

Then this would suggest that it didn't just 'come up' wouldn't it?

I think an excellent way of catching a real murderer might be to just tell him you found his DNA on the murder weapon, and then watch him break down and confess. It wouldn't work every time, of course, but it will with some and is worth a shot considering it's very time efficient.

It might just be that Raffaele's answer didn't just come out of the blue. How many hours did this interrogation last? They must have been talking about something, and I bet some questions got asked over and over, in many different ways...

I am wondering the time frame between the November 6 memorial written by Amanda and the search of Raffaele's flat.

In her memorial Amanda writes that she noticed blood on Raffaele's hand but thought it was blood from the fish he had prepared for them to eat.

If her memorial was written and read first (before the search of Raffaele's flat), this could be the reason the police searched for all and any knives in Raffaele's flat. I would imagine Raffaele having his flick knife on his possession while he was being questioned at the Questura on November 5-6 didn't help steer the police away from searching his flat for other knives.

The jack-knife from the bedroom didn't yield Meredith's DNA, however, the kitchen knife did. I do not know the result of the flick knife but I assume it was tested and didn't yield any significant result. Perhaps the police were surprised that it was the kitchen knife which gave a result.

Out of all three knives I am not sure of their compatibility to the stain on the sheet or to the wounds inflicted on Meredith.

 

[platonov]

Mark Waterbury of ScienceSpheres believes the police went looking for a kitchen knife because they already suspected Rudy was involved in the slaying and he as known to have a kitchen knife at the nursery break-in.
http://www.sciencespheres.com/

In Raffaele's diary, you can see the evolution of his comment about the knife. His lawyer tells him the knife is not necessarily inculpatory, because the girls at the cottage might have borrowed it for cooking. The wheels of Raffaele's imagination turn, and by the next day he has convinced himself, based on the lawyer's suggestion, that he did have the knife at the cottage and he must have pricked Meredith, because that is the only possible way in his mind to explain how Meredith's DNA got on the knife.

Just to save me the time I might have spent reading Mark Waterbury .. [is he the vertical gardener that appeared on these pages earlier] -
Is the suggestion that otherwise the cops wouldnt check the knives in the home of a suspect just arrested in a knife murder ??


Same logic applies to the following

I won't address the rest of your post, as clearly we don't agree about psychic powers needed to pick out the knife from Raff's cutlery drawer. However, I find your comment rather interesting here.

<snip>

and this.

<snip>

If her memorial was written and read first (before the search of Raffaele's flat), this could be the reason the police searched for all and any knives in Raffaele's flat. I would imagine Raffaele having his flick knife on his possession while he was being questioned at the Questura on November 5-6 didn't help steer the police away from searching his flat for other knives.

<snip>

.

 

[Katody Matrass]

On the contrary, there is no evidence whatsoever to support an entry via the window!

The broken window, murdered girl and stolen goods are all evidence of a break-in.

Together with numerous traces Guede left they add up to a coherent no nonsense scenario.
It is that simple scenario, against which we must consider any alternatives - be it a satanic ritual orgy, or a secular, no ritual undertones drug fueled orgy with strangers, an orgy gone wrong ending in a killing with a kitchen utensil carried for protection.
I don't have to write which of them withstands Ockham's Razor test.


BTW The staging is only a necessary condition for even considering AK's and RS's guilt. You still need some good evidence against them. The fact that there is no trace of them at all that would resemble what Guede left is definitely not helping the prosecution's theory.

 

[Justinian2]

I posted this before but some of you may not have seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOOlUR9Cg1Q

The two crazies both climbed a three story brick building in 8 seconds! There was hardly anything to grab onto!

At the end, on the last stunt, it looked like one of the kids was about to drop 15-20 feet then the video stopped. He was hanging onto a tiny sill by his fingertips for ten seconds when the video stopped.

Nobody who sees that video should have any doubts that the breakin was not only possible but probable. I just can't understand why the great Perugia police couldn't have found out that tidbit from their interrogation of Guede.

How long was Guede's interrogation?

 

[christianahannah]

Mark Waterbury of ScienceSpheres believes the police went looking for a kitchen knife because they already suspected Rudy was involved in the slaying and he as known to have a kitchen knife at the nursery break-in.

http://www.sciencespheres.com/

In Raffaele's diary, you can see the evolution of his comment about the knife. His lawyer tells him the knife is not necessarily inculpatory, because the girls at the cottage might have borrowed it for cooking. The wheels of Raffaele's imagination turn, and by the next day he has convinced himself, based on the lawyer's suggestion, that he did have the knife at the cottage and he must have pricked Meredith, because that is the only possible way in his mind to explain how Meredith's DNA got on the knife.

I am not sure why Raffaele wrote he accidentally pricked Meredith but if I were him and my attorney had told me the girls might have borrowed the knife for cooking, I would have taken the next logical step and thought it might have been Amanda or one of the other girls who had accidentally pricked Meredith, not myself, as a possible way to explain how Meredith's DNA got on the knife.

 

[Mary_H]

Just to save me the time I migh have spent reading Mark Waterbury .. [is he the vertical gardener that appeared on these pages earlier] -
Is the suggestion that otherwise the cops wouldnt check the knives in the home of a suspect just arrested in a knife murder ??

Same applies to he following


.

Raffaele had a collection of more portable, meaner-looking knives. People have been saying here that those knives were tested, but I am not sure that's true. The police officer who took the knife from Raffaele's kitchen drawer testified that he took it in part because it looked like what had been described to him as the murder weapon, as in, "Go look for a kitchen knife."

The most puzzling thing to me is why they didn't take one out of Amanda's kitchen drawer if they weren't going to pin it on Raffaele anyway.

 

[Mary_H]

I am not sure why Raffaele wrote he accidentally pricked Meredith but if I were him and my attorney had told me the girls might have borrowed the knife for cooking, I would have taken the next logical step and thought it might have been Amanda or one of the other girls who had accidentally pricked Meredith, not myself, as a possible way to explain how Meredith's DNA got on the knife.

I guess he was trying to make a connection to the fact that they found it in his house. Maybe he assumed it had his fingerprints or DNA on it, too, which it should have had.

 

[platonov]

Raffaele had a collection of more portable, meaner-looking knives. People have been saying here that those knives were tested, but I am not sure that's true. The police officer who took the knife from Raffaele's kitchen drawer testified that he took it in part because it looked like what had been described to him as the murder weapon, as in, "Go look for a kitchen knife."

The most puzzling thing to me is why they didn't take one out of Amanda's kitchen drawer if they weren't going to pin it on Raffaele anyway.

OK, in that case I'm speechless again Why do you doubt it ?

 

[odeed]

And this is the point where, traditionally, certain people will guffaw and say something like: "Oh yeah, right! Guede - a burglar - staged the scene to make it look like a burglar broke in and killed Meredith! Hahahahaha!"

But if the break-in were staged (and I don't believe it was), then - as you say - Guede had almost as much motivation for staging it (if he were the lone assailant) than Knox and Sollecito would have done if they were culpable.

Why? Well if Guede were the lone assailant and he got in without breaking in, this implies that Meredith would have let him in herself. This in itself implies that Guede was known to Meredith by sight: it's very unlikely that Meredith - in the house on her own - would have opened the door to someone she didn't know at 9pm on a dark November night.

So, if Guede was let in by Meredith, then he attacked and killed her, he might very well have realised (correctly) that he couldn't just unlock the front door and leave, since the police would assume (correctly) that Meredith had let her killer in. And Guede would have known that the universe of people who a) were known to Meredith, at least by sight, b) were in Perugia that night, and c) had no alibi, would be very small. And he would know that his name would be high up on that fairly small list.

So by staging a break-in, Guede would, at a stroke, greatly expand the universe of potential assailants. Technically, any male between the ages of around 16 and 60 who didn't have an alibi for that evening was now a potential suspect. And of course while the police would start by looking at habitual burglars, they could not be anywhere near certain that the killer would have come from within their midst.

So, by staging the burglary, Guede might have gone from being one of a group of - say - 10 suspects (men known well enough by Meredith that she would have let them into the house, who were in Perugia, and who had no alibi) to being one of a group of potentially tens of thousands of suspects.

May I ask, are you being serious?

 

[platonov]

And this is the point where, traditionally, certain people will guffaw and say something like: "Oh yeah, right! Guede - a burglar - staged the scene to make it look like a burglar broke in and killed Meredith! Hahahahaha!"

But if the break-in were staged (and I don't believe it was), then - as you say - Guede had almost as much motivation for staging it (if he were the lone assailant) than Knox and Sollecito would have done if they were culpable.
Why? Well if Guede were the lone assailant and he got in without breaking in, this implies that Meredith would have let him in herself. This in itself implies that Guede was known to Meredith by sight: it's very unlikely that Meredith - in the house on her own - would have opened the door to someone she didn't know at 9pm on a dark November night.

So, if Guede was let in by Meredith, then he attacked and killed her, he might very well have realised (correctly) that he couldn't just unlock the front door and leave, since the police would assume (correctly) that Meredith had let her killer in. And Guede would have known that the universe of people who a) were known to Meredith, at least by sight, b) were in Perugia that night, and c) had no alibi, would be very small. And he would know that his name would be high up on that fairly small list.

So by staging a break-in, Guede would, at a stroke, greatly expand the universe of potential assailants. Technically, any male between the ages of around 16 and 60 who didn't have an alibi for that evening was now a potential suspect. And of course while the police would start by looking at habitual burglars, they could not be anywhere near certain that the killer would have come from within their midst.

So, by staging the burglary, Guede might have gone from being one of a group of - say - 10 suspects (men known well enough by Meredith that she would have let them into the house, who were in Perugia, and who had no alibi) to being one of a group of potentially tens of thousands of suspects.

So the break in wasn't staged but if it was, RG staged it - I'm beginning to see a pattern here .

He kills her at 9.05-9.15 ish hangs around for an hour staging break-ins etc and doesn't flush or wipe his prints.

OK Kaosium's knife theory is starting to look less incredible.
The competition is fierce today.

.

 

[platonov]

May I ask, are you being serious?

May I ask, Have you been following this thread ?

.

 

[christianahannah]

Raffaele had a collection of more portable, meaner-looking knives. People have been saying here that those knives were tested, but I am not sure that's true. The police officer who took the knife from Raffaele's kitchen drawer testified that he took it in part because it looked like what had been described to him as the murder weapon, as in, "Go look for a kitchen knife."

The most puzzling thing to me is why they didn't take one out of Amanda's kitchen drawer if they weren't going to pin it on Raffaele anyway.

Well we know the kitchen knife was tested. The jack-knife from the bedroom was tested. From the motivations page 194:

On the jack-knife, 4 samples were taken, with negative results where blood-derived substances had been looked for; on the fourth sample, which involved the handle, the genetic profile was found to be of Sollecito plus Knox.

The flick knife was confiscated at the Questura. I assume it was tested and did not yield any significant results but I do not have that information. Were there any other knives taken and tested (from either Raffaele's or Amanda's flat)? I do not know. There is a photo at PMF of the collection of the girls' knives but I do not know if they were tested.

As to the officer who took the knife from Raffaele's kitchen (and there was also a knife taken from the bedroom we know of) he might have been looking for a pointed knife. There was a large serrated knife left in the drawer so he wasn't just looking for any kitchen knife.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

The two crazies both climbed a three story brick building in 8 seconds! There was hardly anything to grab onto!

Notice the move at the very beginning, where the guy swings across the stone archway. Someone standing on the concrete planter adjacent to Filomena's window could grab the roof and swing across to the ledge. It would be trivial.

 

[odeed]

I posted this before but some of you may not have seen it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOOlUR9Cg1Q

Notice the move at the very beginning, where the guy swings across the stone archway. Someone standing on the concrete planter adjacent to Filomena's window could grab the roof and swing across to the ledge. It would be trivial.

Helps if you can practice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyN72q4Nz_I around Cambridge.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Mignini will never be out of the picture, because that fat-faced wino pervert is almost wholly responsible for Amanda's wrongful arrest, imprisonment, conviction and the tragic loss of years of her life.

Or, he's a champion of justice. Depending on how you look at it.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Comments like this do nothing to further the discussion. What were you hoping to achieve when making this comment?

People have been portraying me as a conspiracy theorist for the past two and a half years. Now it's my turn. I am drawing a comparison, which I believe is both fair and relevant, between those who think Amanda and Raffaele are guilty and the 9-11 truthers. This is a case in which a known burglar left his DNA on two items of the victim's clothing, on her purse, and inside her vagina. He also left bloody fingerprints and shoe prints - all inside the room where the victim was killed. Against that, we've got the bra fastener, a knife from a different location that doesn't fit the wounds, and a supremely improbable premise. And yet the Mignini truthers insist that the case is strong, the evidence is overwhelming. The bum in the park is an unimpeachable witness. The luminol footprints were clearly made with blood, despite negative TMB tests and negative DNA tests. Every one of those tests was meaningless - but a DNA test that barely registered on the machine is good science, as is one collected from a sample that was kicked around on the floor and handled by two people before being dropped in a plastic bag.

It is nonsense, every bit of it. Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are completely innocent. They had nothing to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. Rudy Guede smashed his way into the place, attacked Meredith with a knife, ripped her clothes off, raped her, stole her money, and left her to die. That is the truth about this case - the only truth.

 

[Kaosium]

Unfortunately, there are many examples of mindless murder in this wild, weird world we live in, including many cases between persons who barely know each other. Mignini didn't have to invent anything.

However he did, and then he stuck to it despite the forensics showing one attacker, Rudy Guede describing one attacker, and an utter inability to gather evidence on the other two he insisted must be part of this fantasy. Even after the clearing of Patrick Lumumba he wouldn't let it alone.