Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Charlie Wilkes]

I'll go for the bonus points, the footprints were made after the murder and maybe even after Amanda had locked Meredith's door. That wasn't very hard, now, how many points do I get?

Zero. You can't skip the main exercise and go directly to the bonus question, because by doing that, you fail to explain how Amanda and Raffaele got the blood on their feet in the first place.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I would stop even at the first sentence, stabbing her to death is utterly illogical. It is the most illogical among the illogical points, whoever was it to do it and whatever the rest.
I thought the same about taking a murder weapon back to your home. But I have to start on a datum: DNA of Maredith was found on the blade.
Before making inferences on the use of the knife (was it a murder weapon? was it actually used for stabbing?) the problem is the finding Meredith's DNA on an object in Raffaele's apartment, and an object only handled by Amanda, something not explainable in innocent terms.

Are you therefore in agreement with the premise that this knife was used by Amanda to inflict the large cutting wound found on Meredith's neck?

 

[RoseMontague]

I would stop even at the first sentence, stabbing her to death is utterly illogical. It is the most illogical among the illogical points, whoever was it to do it and whatever the rest.
I thought the same about taking a murder weapon back to your home. But I have to start on a datum: DNA of Maredith was found on the blade.
Before making inferences on the use of the knife (was it a murder weapon? was it actually used for stabbing?) the problem is the finding Meredith's DNA on an object in Raffaele's apartment, and an object only handled by Amanda, something not explainable in innocent terms.

I don't think there was any DNA at all on the knife blade. By any testing standards and protocols for LCN DNA testing, the DNA result Stefafoni got is worthless. I have never heard of a court accepting an untested, unproven, and unrepeatable method to decide if someone is going to spend decades in prison. Even if she had followed proper procedure for the test itself the result should be in question simply because this lab was not set up for LCN DNA testing, to say nothing of the questionable handling of evidence seen from this forensic team. This is not bending the rules of forensic testing, it is breaking them, in my opinion.

I do remember trying to find even one more case decided in Italy using a LCN DNA result and was unable to do so. I would like to see if anyone knows of such a case, and how the testing was handled in that particular case.

 

[Machiavelli]

Are you therefore in agreement with the premise that this knife was used by Amanda to inflict the large cutting wound found on Meredith's neck?

I don't know. This aspect of the dinamic can't be proven.
The knife maybe was used just to threaten, or to cut the bra clasp, or was just cleaned with a rug that had been previously used with bloody hands.

 

[Chris C]

The fact that others have made the accusation doesn't make it correct. I don't see you as much of a follower so I am guessing you have some examples of a PR campaign with elements of racism?

There are no grounds for racism. If you believe knox is racist then you have to believe she wouldn't have committed the crime with Rudy. Since afterall, Rudy is black.

 

[Justinian2]

I don't know. This aspect of the dinamic can't be proven.

The knife maybe was used just to threaten, or to cut the bra clasp, or was just cleaned with a rug that had been previously used with bloody hands.

Dinamic = Dynamic, I presume. Or is it demonic?


For your statement to be correct you have to add the possibility 'or possibly wasn't even used' to the fable/theory of the double LCN DNA knife.

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't know. This aspect of the dinamic can't be proven.
The knife maybe was used just to threaten, or to cut the bra clasp, or was just cleaned with a rug that had been previously used with bloody hands.

If it had been cleaned by a rag that had previously had contact with Meredith's blood, then presumably the DNA on the blade would have come from Meredith's blood. Yet the blade tested negative presumptively for blood.......

 

[Machiavelli]

I don't think there was any DNA at all on the knife blade. By any testing standards and protocols for LCN DNA testing, the DNA result Stefafoni got is worthless. I have never heard of a court accepting an untested, unproven, and unrepeatable method to decide if someone is going to spend decades in prison. Even if she had followed proper procedure for the test itself the result should be in question simply because this lab was not set up for LCN DNA testing, to say nothing of the questionable handling of evidence seen from this forensic team. This is not bending the rules of forensic testing, it is breaking them, in my opinion.

I do remember trying to find even one more case decided in Italy using a LCN DNA result and was unable to do so. I would like to see if anyone knows of such a case, and how the testing was handled in that particular case.

This case is not decided on a piece of DNA. I think the piece of DNA on the blade is an element. The point is not solved by putting in question the result. The result may not be a certain proof in scientific standars, but there is a result nonetheless, and it is an indicator in the case.
You have to accept the logic of taking in account partial scores. Something that is not a definitive proof, it is like a strike that doesn't get like the full score, so is incomplete evidence, but its is score nevertheless, it is not zero. If you have more findings like that you may build a complete proof.

 

[RoseMontague]

This case is not decided on a piece of DNA. I think the piece of DNA on the blade is an element. The point is not solved by putting in question the result. The result may not be a certain proof in scientific standars, but there is a result nonetheless, and it is an indicator in the case.
You have to accept the logic of taking in account partial scores. Something that is not a definitive proof, it is like a strike that doesn't get like the full score, so is incomplete evidence, but its is score nevertheless, it is not zero. If you have more findings like that you may build a complete proof.

This one is a zero, Machiavelli. I would almost consider it a negative result (a positive score for Amanda's team) just because it shows how disdainfully Stefanono overwrites standards and protocols.

 

[RWVBWL]

I can point the guilters to a video done as part of a university investigation that shows the guilty person walking right past you and looking at you directly from three feet away. You are then asked to pick the guilty person from a lineup of several people that look somewhat similar. Everybody picks the wrong person because the 'guilty' person isn't in the lineup.

The university test exemplifies the "fallacy of too few choices". It shows how the vast majority can be fooled.

Magnini the magician can apparently fool the majority/herd.

Hi Justinian2 and others,
A few of the crew here on JREF that actively participate in this debate about the innocence or guilt of Amanda Knox have stated how they came to their beliefs.

I wish to share my own, for it has some similarities to the Amanda Knox case when viewed in comparison to how some some people in power become so narrowly focused in their investigations that they will not back down from what they believe to be "the truth"...

During a Santa Ana wind condition here in Los Angeles back in Oct, 1993,
we had a wicked fire in the hills near Topanga, which killed 3 people and caused some $325 MILLION Dollars worth of property loss and damage.

A guy that I learned how to surf with back in 1976 was accused by L.A. County Sheriff Sherman Block of setting it.
He had stated that my friend Steve Shelp had probably started the fire and tried to put it out,
thereby claiming to be a hero and possibly gaining a job with the Los Angeles Fire Department...

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-05/news/mn-54180_1_criminal-charges

It was all over the T.V. news.
My bro, a white surfer boy from Venice who wouldn't harm a dog,
was a volunteer fireman that was NOW accused of starting the fire that caused 3 people to lose their lives and many others to lose their property...

Heck, even my Mom, a few months before she died, asked me if I believed if Steve did it.
I remember telling her NO, and that I would bet my old surfshop, from where "DogTown" had started, that he had nothing to do with setting this killer fire...

Steve had a girlfriend that he was in love with named Yumi, -(fancy that Machiavelli!)
who, IIRC, lived in Woodland Hills and so he regularly took Topanga Canyon to cruise to her pad, thereby beating ALL the traffic nightmares of the 10+405+101 freeways.
He told me that he and a bro were driving thru Topanga and saw the fire 1st erupt,
-(and with both guys being volunteer firefighers hoping to get a job with the LAFD), pulled over to see what they could do to fight this.
From what I recall, they had a garden hose in the bed of the pickup they were driving, BUT no way to connect it to a fire hydrant.
Coincedently and by pure chance, a guy, who was a plumber in Topanga drove by at the time. He had a connector!
They tired to put the fire out, but as anyone familiar with our Southern California Santa Ana winds knows, that wasn't gonna happen!

Sheriff Block, not seeming to believe this story, went on a rampage, accusing my bro of starting the fire that killed 3 people and caused million of dollars in damage!

But I, and many others, did not believe this and always believed Steve.

The plumber who happened to drive by at the right time had afterwards went to Canada for a week, IIRC, to visit his Mother.
When he came back, he heard of the incredible accusations of Sheriff Block and came forward to corroborate Steve's story.
I can still remember a photograph on the front page of the now-defuct local Santa Monica newspaper "The Evening Outlook" showing Steve, his bro, and the plumber standing there with a little garden hose as a HUGE Santa Ana wind driven fire became out of control...

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-05-22/news/mn-60700_1_malibu-fire

And still Sheriff Sherman Block went after Steve and his bro...
He could not admit, I felt, that he was wrong in his accusations, for he was too powerfull, the sheriff of Los Angeles!

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-09-30/local/me-44809_1_malibu-blaze

Power can tend to corrupt,, it seems.
Since then, I try to look at both sides of every story that I take interest in, as I did so with the 2006 North Carolina Duke lacrosse false-rape-claim incident, and the 2007 brutal murder of Miss Meredith Kercher, which IMHO shows similarites in the actions of a very powerfull prosecutor when viewed in comparison to the actions of a very powerfull sheriff, L.A. County Sheriff Shrman Block...
They got the story wrong, and will not back down, now matter what the evidence shows...

Prosecutor Mignini it seems, has something in common with Sheriff Block and former Prosecutor Nifong.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

PS-A year or 2 later, Steve became a member of the Los Angeles Fire Department,
a hard thing, -(with quota's and all), for a white guy to have happen, but a chance that I feel was given in some sort of karma way...
He works in South Central nowadays, but still surfs the Venice BreakWater when it pumps, as a true Local will always do!
And Yumi stood by him and became his wife many years ago...

PSS-Steven R. Shelp, fireman and surfer,
my long time buddy, shot a photograph of me riding a wave in Venice back in 1983 that is tattoo'd upon my back, minus myself, that is my current avatar...
Bro's forever!

 

[HumanityBlues]

This case is not decided on a piece of DNA. I think the piece of DNA on the blade is an element. The point is not solved by putting in question the result. The result may not be a certain proof in scientific standars, but there is a result nonetheless, and it is an indicator in the case.
You have to accept the logic of taking in account partial scores. Something that is not a definitive proof, it is like a strike that doesn't get like the full score, so is incomplete evidence, but its is score nevertheless, it is not zero. If you have more findings like that you may build a complete proof.

The problem is, you still have to weigh each individual piece of evidence on its own merits in order build any conglomeration of final proof. Is it probative or not? Is it reliable or not? A bunch of pieces of evidence with low probative value added together doesn't constitute something definitive, it means you have a bad case on your hands.

"This case is not decided on a piece of DNA. I think the piece of DNA on the blade is an element."

Ok great, lets take this out of the equation and just assume arguendo its bad evidence. What's the strongest piece of forensic evidence tying Amanda Knox to the crime? You've already stated your thought process as having to assign levels of value to pieces of evidence, which is fair. So it shouldn't be a problem to say what the most damning piece of evidence is in your mind (I apologize in advance if you have already stated what this is).

 

[RoseMontague]

PS-A year or 2 later, Steve became a member of the Los Angeles Fire Department, a hard thing, -(with quota's and all), for a white guy to have happen, but a chance that I feel was given in some sort of karma way...
He works in South Central nowadays, but still surfs the Venice Breakwater when it pumps, as a true local will always do!
And Yumi stood by him and became his wife many years ago...

PSS-Steven R. Shelp, fireman and surfer,
my long time buddy, shot a photograph of me riding a wave in Venice back in 1983 that is tattoo'd upon my back, minus myself, that is my current avatar...
Bro's forever!

That is a good story with a good ending. Thanks. Interesting avatar, ouch!

 

[Justinian2]

Hi Justinian2 and others,
A few of the crew here on JREF that actively participate in this debate about the innocence or guilt of Amanda Knox have stated how they came to their beliefs!

All's well that ends well (except for the emotional scars, lost effort, lost opportunities, and effects of depression on the health)

There's some truth to the expression that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. If Amanda, Raffaele and families recover from this quickly, they could be stronger.

Quite the tatoo? Was it painful?

 

[Antony]

I would stop even at the first sentence, stabbing her to death is utterly illogical. It is the most illogical among the illogical points, whoever was it to do it and whatever the rest.
I thought the same about taking a murder weapon back to your home. But I have to start on a datum: DNA of Maredith was found on the blade.
Before making inferences on the use of the knife (was it a murder weapon? was it actually used for stabbing?) the problem is the finding Meredith's DNA on an object in Raffaele's apartment, and an object only handled by Amanda, something not explainable in innocent terms.

It wouldn't be explainable if it was genuine, hence Raffaele's problems making sense of it in his notorious diary entry. But the narrative of it being the murder weapon doesn't make any more sense.

The reading was a false one. There never was any of Meredith's DNA on this knife. Stefanoni could have gone to your house (or any house she chose), picked up one of your kitchen knives and obtained the same result by the methods she used. If evidence like this is to be accepted, then nobody is safe from false accusation and imprisonment.

It was an improperly conducted test, run in unsuitable conditions. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

 

[lane99]

But hasn't the case for a flawed prosecution already been made?

...Nobody has successfully contested the fact that there is evidence even the prosecution does not contest that Amanda and Raffaele were at Raffaele's house until 21:10 or so, and strong evidence (the opening of a Naruto file) that they were at the same location until at the very earliest 21:26...

There's a short post on the Perugia Shock blog that says the boyfriend's lawyer's are now arguing analysis of the computer shows there was human activity on the computer for:

"the whole of the evening of the crime".

Anyone know what that means in terms of specific times? Is this taking us into 10pm? 11pm? Midnight? Or?

I know there are some blind fanatics that would still consider Knox and her boyfriend guilty even if they both weren't at the crime scene when the murder occured.

But if there's solid evidence they were using the computer all evening, I think most objective people will recognize that as significiant support for their alibi.

 

[Mary_H]

PSS-Steven R. Shelp, fireman and surfer,
my long time buddy, shot a photograph of me riding a wave in Venice back in 1983 that is tattoo'd upon my back, minus myself, that is my current avatar...
Bro's forever!

Great story and great tattoo, RWVBWL. Thanks for sharing.

 

[RoseMontague]

There's a short post on the Perugia Shock blog that says the boyfriend's lawyer's are now arguing analysis of the computer shows there was human activity on the computer for:

"the whole of the evening of the crime".

Anyone know what that means in terms of specific times? Is this taking us into 10pm? 11pm? Midnight? Or?

I know there are some blind fanatics that would still consider Knox and her boyfriend guilty even if they both weren't at the crime scene when the murder occured.

But if there's solid evidence they were using the computer all evening, I think most objective people will recognize that as significiant support for their alibi.

I am not seeing anything on this in the US media. Steve Shay has a new article up today that does not even mention it. It could be very important.

 

[Mary_H]

Guildford 4 , Birmingham 6, al Megrahi/Lockerbie case, Silcott, Clark, Rochdale child abuse etc

Don't think I've ever seen one online, perhaps they exist.

But a thread that starts with cartwheels and at the moment has reached ............

speaks for itself

--------------

More cites, No. You want me to document all the nonsense about this case - read back thru this thread & follow the links. There is plenty there.
In any case this is my opinion on what I see.


If anybody asked me to point to a post which encapsulates the 'AK is innocent' movement your 'statistically improbable' post from which the above quote is taken above would be a contender.

.

What's this about more cites? Have you ever cited anything?

What kind of an argument is "read back thru this thread and follow the links?" Exactly the same argument applies to anyone who wants evidence Amanda and Raffaele are innocent.

I will assume your charges of racism and xenophobia have fallen by the wayside, since you can't support them with anything but your opinion.

 

[RWVBWL]

That is a good story with a good ending. Thanks. Interesting avatar, ouch!

All's well that ends well (except for the emotional scars, lost effort, lost opportunities, and effects of depression on the health)

There's some truth to the expression that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. If Amanda, Raffaele and families recover from this quickly, they could be stronger.

Quite the tatoo? Was it painful?

Hi RoseMontague and Justinian2,
After Steve became a fireman, working the dangerous streets of South Central L.A, he has told me many a brutal story of going out on calls, not to fight a fire, but simply to rescue people. Car accidents, drive by shootings, drug overdoses, dead homelss people, on+on it goes, as 1 can imagine what being a fireman in a poorer part of town in the center of a big city really entails when a person calls 911...

You know, with that written, I sometimes wonder how Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Sollecito,
-( whom I believe to 100% innocent of any involvement in Miss Kerchers brutal murder), will be when they too are free from all of this?

What good might they give back to their friends, their community, the world?

I have read that Amanda wishes to stay in Italy. If she did so, 1 can imagine that she will be a person that might be able to actually help others.
As she wrote in her diary shortly after being arrested while being held in solitary confinement, -(IIRC),
when the police had tricked her, -(page 27, "Angel Face" author B. Nadeau), by saying that she was HIV positive:
"I want to create something good."...

My hope for Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, if+when they are finally released from this prison nightmare,
is that they do not become full of hatred at the system that imprisoned them but do go onto greater things in life.
Heck, who woulda ever imagined that Nelson Mandela would become president of apartheid South Africa?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

PS-Within days of my Mother asking if Steve had started that October '93 fire that took the lives of 3 people and caused much hardship to many others.
she suddenly passed away from a brain aneurysm.
5 years later, in summer of '99, I tatt'ed my whole back, using my bro Steve's photo,
which also was published in the L.A. Weekly in 1984 when I became a West Coast Champion surfer as the centerpiece and a photograph of my young Mother is on my right arm+shoulder.
And you can not see any of this if+when I do go to church!

Yes the tatt' did hurt,
but as in life, to experience happiness, you gotta feel a little pain...
Peace, RW

Folks...lets keep the discussion focused on the OP; ie. "Discussion of the Amanda Knox case." Non-OP discussion really belongs in another thread, or PMs.

Posted By: Locknar

 

[Mary_H]

From that article:

I haven't heard about this "mystic" before. Is it her belief that the murderer(s) of Meredith and the Monster of Florence are the same person(s)?

Gabriella Carlizzi did die recently. She had a blog; maybe it is still there. There was discussion about her on the 48 Hours program American Girl, Italian Nightmare.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/08/48hours/main4929950.shtml

As I recall, she did not exactly believe Amanda and Raffaele were guilty, but I can't remember anything about her last comments on the subject.