"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[chillzero]

No, women can have as many or as few male friends as their hearts desire

Just never be alone with them ... unchaperoned. Right?

 

[Last of the Fraggles]

Depends on the age of consent laws. She may not be legally able to give consent.

Even if she is, why are you putting the responsibility on her? Where's the scorn for the men who take advantage of teenage girls?

And what about him? What is his responsibility?

OK, so a teenage girl who is emotionally manipulated into having sex is the same thing as two consenting adults?

So if a man can manipulate a teenage girl into having sex that she doesn't want, he should. It's the adult way after all. She will learn her hard lesson, and he gets his rocks off. Win/win!

Yes, losing some money is the same thing as sexual assault. Body parts are replaceable, as is the human psyche.

Here's an idea. What if the people who commit rape look for ways to get people into a situation in which they have no control. What if they have practice.

In the example given I assumed we were discussing a girl beyond the age of consent. So we are dealing with two adults who consent to have sex freely. So that's why I'm putting the responsibility on her - if two people consent to something that only one of them wants then the one who didn't want it to happen only has themself to blame.

If a man can manipulate a girl into having sex she doesn't want then it's the girl's problem to deal with. She should learn to say no. That's pretty much all there is to it. Nobody said he 'should' merely that he 'can' and that it's not illegal to do so.

If she says 'no' and the guy goes ahead anyway then we're quite clearly in rape territory.

What is 'his responsibility' in your eyes? Not only not to have sex if she says no but also not to have sex if she says yes because he should know deep down she means no?

As for the other part, I was giving an example of getting into situations beyond your control. I said 'it could have been worse' to point out that all I lost was some money, but it could have been anything that happened because I was in no position to stop anything. If the person I was with had been a murderer rather than a thief for example.

As for the people who commit rape looking for ways to get people into situations where they have no control, yes they probably do. And your answer is to not allow me to give advice on looking out for that kind of behaviour and avoiding those kinds of situations because that would be 'blaming the victim'

No. I don't agree.

Rapes like the one you described are also notoriously difficult to prosecute. They were having a romantic dinner. Maybe they kissed. Obviously there was some expectation of sex. If she did not fight back by kicking or screaming, it is even worse. (Of course, all the rape literature tells you not to fight.)

But before the trial happens, there's the cops. Who will interrogate the woman to find out if it really was rape. "So...you guys were dating? You had a romantic evening? Did you flirt? Did you kiss? Did you maybe discuss your sexual fantasy of being push up against a wall?"

This often happens in the hospital after a woman has gone through the process of getting a rape test. Pap smear, blood drawn, then a pile of pills to prevent AIDS and pregnancy. If she's lucky, her insurance or the police department will pick up the tab for the rape kit. If she's not, she'll have to pay. In any case, that kit will often sit around. Because she knows the guy, the kit will not be processed. Which means that some of the information will not appear at trial, the DNA sample will not be entered into the data-banks.

The guy? Picked up that night if the cops decided to do something about it. Out on bail within 24 hours. Waits a few months for the trial, a good lawyer will keep postponing it until the victim, who only wants this to be over, decides that she doesn't want to be a witness. Even if it goes to trial, the defense already has a good case. It was their 4th dinner, it was romantic.

So are you arguing that rapes shouldn't be investigated thoroughly to determine if in fact the offence occured? Should we just throw the accused in jail without a trial because someone said they are a rapist?

The guy of course gets off scot free in rape situations as you say in your example. It's not as if word gets around of the accusation, his alleged offences get made public, his social, family life and career all get damaged and the mud sticks even if he is found not guilt down the line. Not at all.

The one who is with the rapist will be raped. The "nice guy" is just as dangerous as the obvious ex-con.

The majority of rapes do not happen because a woman was in an obviously dangerous situation. C'mon, do you really think that women are that dumb? They aren't. Women are raped by someone they know in a situation that they thought was safe. Stranger rape, or rape that happens during another crime is statistically low

You know those con-men who bilk old people out of their savings? They don't do it by being an obvious danger, they do it by being a really nice guy that anyone would trust. This is the situation in which most rapes happen.

The attitude that women are somehow complicit in their own rapes is the reason why few rapists are ever persecuted or caught.

There is a big difference between being raped by someone you know and not being in an obviously dangerous situation. I don't know what the stats are for the latter. But even if we accept that it doesn't mean that you shouldn't warn women about dangerous situations and how to avoid them because, despite what you say, I still hear about rapes being commited on women in obviously dangerous situations.

You know those conmen that bilk old people? Well we warn old people about them. We tell them not to let people into their homes, to check their ID, etc. We don't call that 'blaming the victim' we call that common sense.

As for the reason why 'few' rapists are ever caught, I would have thought the somewhat unique nature of the crime might be something to do with that. There are unlikely to be independent witnesses or anyone who can corroborate exactly what happened. Policemen don't have magic abilities to tell if a woman is lying or telling the truth unfortunately.

 

[Furcifer]

Preventing your 15-year old daughter from hanging out with 19-year olds will prevent rape? Do you really have any statistics to back that up, as you claim, or is that just your personal idea of "looking out for"?

Did you mean "help prevent"?

I'm from Sweden, we're raised with slightly more liberal values here. My parents met when my mother was 16 and my father 22, for instance. My father was of course a worthless bum looking to take adv-, oh, no, he was studying at a medical university. Dang.

First of all I don't presume to know if your father raped your mother or not. But you seem to be suggesting because he didn't, it won't happen to anyone. That's pretty foolish don't you think?

Someone who is 15 can be mature enough to hang out with someone who's 19, and there is no reason why she should not be able to judge the situation. Honestly, if you can't raise your children to tell the difference, isn't that your mistake as a parent?

Would you please stop blaming the victim, and the victims parents!

Well, I was 18 first time I got drunk, I've been around the country many times in my teens without any trouble, and I've never gotten into any problems.

ahh, so it worked for you, no need to follow the statistics. Great, just great.

Sure, anecdote. You can wave that away. But then I'd like to see that letting your 15-year old hanging out with 19-year olds (and remember, ANY 19-year old, not just the quickest straw man you can make up!) will significantly increase her chance of getting raped.

So 19 is OK? Fine. I said based on the laws of Canada that a two year difference makes for a problem, statutory rape for one, the fact that girls are saying guys are pressuring them into sex and getting them pregnant and giving them diseases another.

So where do you draw the line? 20?, 21?, 22?, 30?, 45?, 65? Or do you think it's fine that a 16 year old girl is going out alone, drinking and partying with 75 year old man? At what point do you begin to realize this older man isn't hanging out with this girl because he finds her interesting. He's hanging out with her because he wants sex.

Because if he's hanging out with because he wants sex, and she has no intention of sleeping with him, that's high risk. He wants sex from her and if she isn't giving it freely there's a very good chance, better than if there just friends hanging out playing video games, that he will coerce or force her to do so. Whether it's physical force, or drug, alcohol, money, it's very likely it's going to turn into an assault of some sort.

I'm telling you as a guy, very few guys are hanging around a 16 year old girl because they want to be friends. Sure most will linger and probably never do anything, but some will try at some point. And it's a lot more likely the bigger the age difference, and although it's only say 5 years at 19, that's a lot of years. 15 and 20 is like 25 and 45.

 

[Furcifer]

Just never be alone with them ... unchaperoned. Right?

Between the ages of 16 and 22?

Drinking?

At her house or his?

Probably not.

 

[AvalonXQ]

I'm telling you as a guy, very few guys are hanging around a 16 year old girl because they want to be friends.

This is a particular piece of sexism that I will never accept. No man wants a sixteen-year-old girl as a friend? All that any male wants from a young woman is sex? How misandrist.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Did you mean "help prevent"?

In any reasonable statistical sample at least a few rapes will be prevented.

First of all I don't presume to know if your father raped your mother or not. But you seem to be suggesting because he didn't, it won't happen to anyone. That's pretty foolish don't you think?

No, but you seem to be saying that there's no legitimate reason for a 19-year old to hang out with a 15-year old. I'm pointing out that there can be, like, you know, a normal, healthy romantic relationship?

Would you please stop blaming the victim, and the victims parents!

The what? All I'm saying is that if you got SOME sense into your daughter's head she probably won't choose to hang out with the alcoholics who live in the park. That is, she'll have as good of an idea, if not better, of what kind of people she's hanging out with compared to your idea of them.

ahh, so it worked for you, no need to follow the statistics. Great, just great.

Do you have any statistics that show a liberal upbringing will increase the likelihood of being raped?

So 19 is OK? Fine. I said based on the laws of Canada that a two year difference makes for a problem, statutory rape for one, the fact that girls are saying guys are pressuring them into sex and getting them pregnant and giving them diseases another.

I could care less about California law. But actually, in this case the law could be a problem. I could, for instance, speculate that the fact that it's a crime means that someone who's willing to break the law is more likely to be someone intending to cause trouble.

So where do you draw the line? 20?, 21?, 22?, 30?, 45?, 65? Or do you think it's fine that a 16 year old girl is going out alone, drinking and partying with 75 year old man? At what point do you begin to realize this older man isn't hanging out with this girl because he finds her interesting. He's hanging out with her because he wants sex.

Or he's hanging out with her because they have great conversations. Maybe she's interested in, I don't know, life during the early cold war? Maybe he's glad that someone wants to listen to his stories? There are plenty of legit reasons as for why a 16-year old and a 75-year old could hang out.

Because if he's hanging out with because he wants sex, and she has no intention of sleeping with him, that's high risk. He wants sex from her and if she isn't giving it freely there's a very good chance, better than if there just friends hanging out playing video games, that he will coerce or force her to do so. Whether it's physical force, or drug, alcohol, money, it's very likely it's going to turn into an assault of some sort.

Because... He's older. Gotcha.

I'm telling you as a guy, very few guys are hanging around a 16 year old girl because they want to be friends. Sure most will linger and probably never do anything, but some will try at some point. And it's a lot more likely the bigger the age difference, and although it's only say 5 years at 19, that's a lot of years. 15 and 20 is like 25 and 45.

And I'm telling you as an 18-year old guy, I know plenty of 15-16 year olds I can have meaningful conversations with, girls and boys. Romantic relationship? Maybe, maybe not. 15 and 20 is to 25 and 45 in the sense of "not a big difference, depends on the person", I suppose.

THERE ARE VALID REASONS TO HANG OUT WITH SOMEONE SEVERAL YEARS OLDER THAN YOU.

I seriously don't see why you assume that the vast majority of people are out to rape your daughter or will eventually end up in a situation where they rape her. It sounds horribly paranoid.

 

[Agatha]

OK, so please describe a rape scenario in which the woman's behavior was not relevant to being raped.

How about an 18 year old girl who goes to a telephone box, within sight of her own front door, on a sunny winter's morning (because she doesn't have a landline and mobiles haven't yet been invented) and is grabbed from the telephone box mid-call, dragged into bushes and raped by a man considerably bigger and stronger? This girl is wearing jeans, flat boots, a sweater and an oversized duffel coat. Neither party is drunk, and they are strangers to each other.

This thread is depressing the hell out of me. There seems to be a lot of hate and mistrust of both women and men.

 

[Furcifer]

This is a particular piece of sexism that I will never accept. No man wants a sixteen-year-old girl as a friend? All that any male wants from a young woman is sex? How misandrist.

See how you created a strawman out of "no man"?

Of course there exceptions. But you can take your exceptions away from my 16 year old daughter. If I find a 30 year old guy, alone, drinking with my 16 year old daughter I'm not going to presume their just "friends".

Misandrist my butt. You can't be this naive.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

See how you created a strawman out of "no man"?

Of course there exceptions. But you can take your exceptions away from my 16 year old daughter. If I find a 30 year old guy, alone, drinking with my 16 year old daughter I'm not going to presume their just "friends".

Misandrist my butt. You can't be this naive.

And, uhm, how often do you find your 16-year old daughter drinking along with a 30-year old man? Never mind that she's too young to drink. How many 30-year old men would develop a scheme to get into your 16-year old daughter's pants?

It seems like you're making up the most suggestive situations possible and drawing gigantic generalizations from them. What if your, say, 15-year old daughter came home to present her new boyfriend (ignore age of consent laws now, they differ by region), a 19-year old, well-shaved college student studying to become a microbiologists? Would you scream "DON'T TOUCH MY DAUGHTER, Y'ALL RAPIST SCUM!" and throw him out?

 

[bookitty]

How about an 18 year old girl who goes to a telephone box, within sight of her own front door, on a sunny winter's morning (because she doesn't have a landline and mobiles haven't yet been invented) and is grabbed from the telephone box mid-call, dragged into bushes and raped by a man considerably bigger and stronger? This girl is wearing jeans, flat boots, a sweater and an oversized duffel coat. Neither party is drunk, and they are strangers to each other.

This thread is depressing the hell out of me. There seems to be a lot of hate and mistrust of both women and men.

That is one of the few situations in which her actions wouldn't be held against her. Although, depressingly enough, that might change in court.

I don't really see much hate towards either men or women in this thread. There are a lot of strongly held ideas about rape, many of which do not match up to the reality. There is a clash. It's also a horrific crime. People don't want to think that it can happen almost casually. They want villains and fools.

 

[Furcifer]

Or he's hanging out with her because they have great conversations. Maybe she's interested in, I don't know, life during the early cold war? Maybe he's glad that someone wants to listen to his stories? There are plenty of legit reasons as for why a 16-year old and a 75-year old could hang out.

Seriously? You too eh?

You obviously aren't reading the thread very well. We're not talking about Tuesday's With Morrie, we're talking about a guy hanging around a young girl, drinking and watching movies together alone, stuff like that that could be considered a date perhaps. But even if it was just them talking and telling stories there's very little reason for them being alone. I would be watching that closely until I understood the nature of that relationship, and so should the woman depending on the age of course.

My gosh, what's next, you guys want to talk about nurses being alone in the same room feeding patients in a nursing home! Well you got me there, that's quite the technicality.

 

[chillzero]

Between the ages of 16 and 22?

Drinking?

At her house or his?

Probably not.

Well, I'm not sure when the conditions of drinking got added to your little set of issues or the age parameters, but still ... that's not actually the point. It is better to educate people that not all interaction between a male and a female when alone together must have sexual overtones. It's a ridiculous view that denegrates men and their ability to be caring, thinking people that are not driven to violence by sexual needs.

 

[bookitty]

See how you created a strawman out of "no man"?

Of course there exceptions. But you can take your exceptions away from my 16 year old daughter. If I find a 30 year old guy, alone, drinking with my 16 year old daughter I'm not going to presume their just "friends".

Misandrist my butt. You can't be this naive.

And again, you defend your statement by going for a dramatic and statistically low example.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Seriously? You too eh?

You obviously aren't reading the thread very well. We're not talking about Tuesday's With Morrie, we're talking about a guy hanging around a young girl, drinking and watching movies together alone, stuff like that that could be considered a date perhaps. But even if it was just them talking and telling stories there's very little reason for them being alone. I would be watching that closely until I understood the nature of that relationship, and so should the woman depending on the age of course.

My gosh, what's next, you guys want to talk about nurses being alone in the same room feeding patients in a nursing home! Well you got me there, that's quite the technicality.

Like I said, I'm not comfortable with 16-year olds consuming alcohol, but I wouldn't go to put an active stop to it unless things got out of hand. A 15-16 year old has some right to make choices about her own life. I would certainly sit down and discuss it thoroughly with her on several occasions.

And seriously, do you watch your daughter like some kind of eagle? And I don't really see why you should judge her that way, let's say your or my daughter WANTS to date a 75-year old (never mind why, that's beyond me too), I don't see anything in Sveriges Rikes Lag (The Law of the Realm of Sweden) that prevents it, and I don't see anything morally wrong with it. Actually, I'd be more comfortable with her hanging out with an old man rather than stupid adventurous friends her own age, even if I'd consider it a queer behaviour.

 

[Furcifer]

And, uhm, how often do you find your 16-year old daughter drinking along with a 30-year old man? Never mind that she's too young to drink. How many 30-year old men would develop a scheme to get into your 16-year old daughter's pants?

I already said 19, you were the one that suggested any age was fine and dandy. Are you reading this thread or what

I believe you don't know what you're talking about anymore, you're just talking nonsense to argue.

I don't know if you're inexperienced or what, but generally speaking a 16 year old girl doesn't need 19 year old acquaintances to hang around alone with and drink or do drugs. And as a parent, if she's under 18 I'm not going to encourage it. That's the bottom line. And for good reason.

You tell me until you're blue in the face about all your wonderful friends, but if you showed up around my home with my 16 year old daughter you'd be answering to me. Or my 19 year old son if that were the case.

If she decided that she wanted to be alone with you, after I knew you, I'd allow it, but you'd be aware that if anything happened to her I work with boilers the size of a house, and they burn everything, including teeth. Capiche?

 

[Furcifer]

Well, I'm not sure when the conditions of drinking got added to your little set of issues or the age parameters

bout 9 pages ago.

 

[Furcifer]

And again, you defend your statement by going for a dramatic and statistically low example.

This started long ago at a 19 year old and a 16 year old. So what are you talking about? You knew this, you were participating in the thread

TB started in about his 22 year old father and 16 year old mother, that's how this age difference got inflated.

So you really think a 19 year old guy hangs around a 16 year old because he finds her fascinating and just wants to talk? That is dangerously naive.

 

[3point14]

And you're 15-22?

Of course YMMV, I assume you didn't rape them.

I'm not sure what your point is either. Of course a woman is free to hang out alone with you, that doesn't mean it isn't a high risk activity (that's in light of the fact that I'm sure 99.999% of the time nothing happens). If she's worried about being raped there's no real reason for it. You wouldn't have hung out with her had she said she wanted to meet at a bar instead? Or are you just pointing out that I happen to have sex more often when a woman invites me over for drinks than you? I suppose that's flattering but I don't see how it's relevant?

I read from this that the only intention of your interaction with women is to get them into bed?

 

[Furcifer]

It is better to educate people that not all interaction between a male and a female when alone together must have sexual overtones. It's a ridiculous view that denegrates men and their ability to be caring, thinking people that are not driven to violence by sexual needs.

Wait.

So you think a guy is going to be alone with some girl he finds attractive and remember some campaign about there being no sexual overtones?

You really don't get the whole male female dynamic do you? I don't think it's physically possible, short of castration, to stop a man from thinking about sex when he's alone with a woman he finds attractive. If he's attracted there will be sexual overtones. Violence is a whole other matter, I'm shocked than anyone would conflate the two.

 

[3point14]

If she's a woman between the ages of 16-22 (or 15-24ish say), no she needn't be.

There's exceptions to any rule of course. Men make their intentions pretty well known towards a woman almost instantly. If she knows it's platonic or he's gay or something it's probably safe. I don't believe a friend that isn't attracted to her suddenly decides he's going to rape her.

I have many female friends between the ages of 16 and 22. I enjoy their company, they give me a different outlook on the world and introduce me to things I wouldn't otherwise have found. I have spent many hours with them, some of them are stunningly attractive. I'm not thinking about sex with them, they're not thinking about sex with me. I'm far, far too old for them. Should I not associate with them?