Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[quadraginta]

I wonder what the percentage of murders committed by women is in Italy.

It appears that women are constantly murdering people there, in contrast to the rest of the world.

Why do you suppose it appears that way to you? Could the focus of this thread have any effect on that perception? Might there also be some selection process when discussing inmates of an Italian women's prison?

What do you think the gender breakdown for murderers is in the U.S? Here is one look into the subject.

To study the potential differences that distinguish homicides involving women as victims or offenders from those involving men, we analyzed Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Reports data on homicides that occurred in the United States between 1976 and 1987. Only cases that involved victims aged 15 years or older were included. Persons killed during law enforcement activity and cases in which the victim's gender was not recorded were excluded. A total of 215,273 homicides were studied, 77% of which involved male victims and 23% female victims. Although the overall risk of homicide for women was substantially lower than that of men (rate ratio [RR] = 0.27), their risk of being killed by a spouse or intimate acquaintance was higher (RR = 1.23). In contrast to men, the killing of a woman by a stranger was rare (RR = 0.18). More than twice as many women were shot and killed by their husband or intimate acquaintance than were murdered by strangers using guns, knives, or any other means. Although women comprise more than half the U.S. population, they committed only 14.7% of the homicides noted during the study interval. In contrast to men, who killed nonintimate acquaintances, strangers, or victims of undetermined relationship in 80% of cases, women killed their spouse, an intimate acquaintance, or a family member in 60% of cases. When men killed with a gun, they most commonly shot a stranger or a non-family acquaintance.

What percentage of children under six who are murdered do you suppose are murdered by women in the U.S.? By their mothers? Those numbers might be even more surprising.

This is a more subtle example of the problem with anecdotes when contemplating frequency of incidence. The environment serves as a filtering mechanism. Examples under discussion comprise a non-representative sampling of the whole.

 

[Withnail1969]

Why do you suppose it appears that way to you? Could the focus of this thread have any effect on that perception? Might there also be some selection process when discussing inmates of an Italian women's prison?

What do you think the gender breakdown for murderers is in the U.S? Here is one look into the subject.



What percentage of children under six who are murdered do you suppose are murdered by women in the U.S.? By their mothers? Those numbers might be even more surprising.

This is a more subtle example of the problem with anecdotes when contemplating frequency of incidence. The environment serves as a filtering mechanism. Examples under discussion comprise a non-representative sampling of the whole.

I guess that one went over your head. Not to worry.

 

[Machiavelli]

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/39866695/Italian-Mignini-1

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/39867776/Italian-Mignini-2

Can you quote us please where in the motivation they said this? My understanding was that it was a suspended sentence, but that Mignini would be professionally sanctioned if found guilty on appeal. Either way, I would love a quote from the motivation that says he deserved no professional sanction....unless you're going to argue it's "inherent" in the judge's ruling.

No no, i'm not talking of the sentence and motivations. I'm talking of the CSM and the ANM of Umbria, the entities who have the power to sanction him professionally or to express a position on the matter.
The CSM (Supreme Council of Magistrates) doesn't need a conviction to issue professional sanctions. Doesn't need even a charge. And they have quite an array of possible professional sanctions. Important magistrates were hit by professioanl disciplinary actions in the recent years, like Clementina Forleo, Luigi DeMagistri, Alfonso Marra, Antonio Clemente, Angelo Gargani. That's only the first names that came to my mind of magistrates "punished" or formally blamed in the last 2-3 years. But Mignini was never blamed. Instead I read statements by the ANM in his favour, and he advanced in his career. This doesn't mean I have a judgement myself about his activity. It is just a datum. He must have had some approval and favourable judgements.

 

[Justinian2]

I'll be overseas for two weeks starting Nov 20th.
I wish Amanda, Raffaele and their families the best of luck in their appeal.

 

[quadraginta]

I guess that one went over your head. Not to worry.

Anti-Poe effort. There are heads in this thread which struggle with the concepts involved in sampling and evidence.

 

[Withnail1969]

No no, i'm not talking of the sentence and motivations. I'm talking of the CSM and the ANM of Umbria, the entities who have the power to sanction him professionally or to express a position on the matter.
The CSM (Supreme Council of Magistrates) doesn't need a conviction to issue professional sanctions. Doesn't need even a charge. And they have quite an array of possible professional sanctions. Important magistrates were hit by professioanl disciplinary actions in the recent years, like Clementina Forleo, Luigi DeMagistri, Alfonso Marra, Antonio Clemente, Angelo Gargani. That's only the first names that came to my mind of magistrates "punished" or formally blamed in the last 2-3 years. But Mignini was never blamed. Instead I read statements by the ANM in his favour, and he advanced in his career. This doesn't mean I have a judgement myself about his activity. It is just a datum. He must have had some approval and favourable judgements.

Perhaps he just has the right connections? With Italy's extreme levels of institutional and political corruption, Occam's Razor would indicate that is the simplest explanation.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'll be overseas for two weeks starting Nov 20th.
I wish Amanda, Raffaele and their families the best of luck in their appeal.

Have a good Thanksgiving Justinian2, check in if you can.

 

[HumanityBlues]

No no, i'm not talking of the sentence and motivations. I'm talking of the CSM and the ANM of Umbria, the entities who have the power to sanction him professionally or to express a position on the matter.
The CSM (Supreme Council of Magistrates) doesn't need a conviction to issue professional sanctions. Doesn't need even a charge. And they have quite an array of possible professional sanctions. Important magistrates were hit by professioanl disciplinary actions in the recent years, like Clementina Forleo, Luigi DeMagistri, Alfonso Marra, Antonio Clemente, Angelo Gargani. That's only the first names that came to my mind of magistrates "punished" or formally blamed in the last 2-3 years. But Mignini was never blamed. Instead I read statements by the ANM in his favour, and he advanced in his career. This doesn't mean I have a judgement myself about his activity. It is just a datum. He must have had some approval and favourable judgements.

Sounds much like Bar Association sanctions in the United States. I'm wondering if Mignini's conviction is upheld whether he would then be sanctioned by this authority.

 

[Alt+F4]

FWIW, here is an article about Mignini's trial: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/knox-prosecutor-tainted-by-satanism-case-1992485.html

I know a lot who believe AK and RS are guilty are probably not Popham fans, but the article does have some quotes from the judges in the Florence case.

From that article:

Gabriella Carlizzi, the Roman mystic whose theories underlay the doomed Monster investigation, was also an influence in the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito.

On 5 November 2007, four days after Meredith's murder, she blogged that the murder "in my view is the Monster story continued with another subject". The following day Knox and Sollecito were arrested.

I haven't heard about this "mystic" before. Is it her belief that the murderer(s) of Meredith and the Monster of Florence are the same person(s)?

 

[christianahannah]

From that article:



I haven't heard about this "mystic" before. Is it her belief that the murderer(s) of Meredith and the Monster of Florence are the same person(s)?

Here is a past article on Carlizzi as well as some Monster of Florence stuff (read page 2 for a blip concerning Carlizzi's relationship to Mignini). I am not sure what her belief is as to binding the two murders. I think she died recently but am not sure.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...her-murders-that-could-save-her/?cid=tag:all1

 

[RoseMontague]

Here is a past article on Carlizzi as well as some Monster of Florence stuff (read page 2 for a blip concerning Carlizzi's relationship to Mignini). I am not sure what her belief is as to binding the two murders. I think she died recently but am not sure.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...her-murders-that-could-save-her/?cid=tag:all1

I remember seeing that somewhere as well, I believe it was on this discussion board:

http://translate.googleusercontent....le.com&usg=ALkJrhgwPiijGyWs1e-mTy7M1KcBI1vPsA

 

[Withnail1969]

Here is a past article on Carlizzi as well as some Monster of Florence stuff (read page 2 for a blip concerning Carlizzi's relationship to Mignini). I am not sure what her belief is as to binding the two murders. I think she died recently but am not sure.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...her-murders-that-could-save-her/?cid=tag:all1

I particularly liked the following quote from Barbie Nadeau:-

'Italian prosecutors and investigators have less leeway than their American counterparts, so bending the rules is often part of criminal investigations.'.

Breaking the law is part of upholding the law? Perhaps Machiavelli could explain.

 

[RWVBWL]

No, I don't think there is nothing unlikely in picking up that knife in particular from the drawer and test it for the DNA. That was the only knife suitable for attacking a human being that was found in that drawer. There were only two big kitchen knife in the apartment, and one is a bread knife. A second knife was seized from Raffaele's apartment and also tested for DNA, this second was not a kitchen knife. No I don't see anything incredible in this.
<snip>
I think what you say is utterly illogical. Amanda and Raffaele were clearly accused of tampering and clear explanations can be given as for why they were tampering at each stage, for me the explanation is not limited at "we're not buying".

UTTERLY ILLOGICAL!
Hi Machiavelli/Yummi,
Utterly illogical is stabbing someone to her death, taking that knife home,
washing it, NO, scrubbing it and putting it back in the drawer to then use to cut the fish you are gonna cook for your new girlfriend for dinner...


Right!
But hey, that's my opinion only,
RWVBWL

PS-How did Amanda Knox and/or Raffaele Sollecito transport this knife BACK to Raffaele's pad?
In Amanda's big ol' purse?
Or maybe Raf stuck it in his waistband?

Did they wash it 1st at Amanda Knox's place before they did so?
Or did they take it back with Meredith Kerchers blood still on it?
Hmmm, I wonder...

 

[Withnail1969]

UTTERLY ILLOGICAL!
Hi Machiavelli/Yummi,
Utterly illogical is stabbing someone to her death, taking that knife home,
washing it, NO, scrubbing it and putting it back in the drawer to then use to cut the fish you are gonna cook for your new girlfriend for dinner...


Right!
But hey, that's my opinion only,
RWVBWL

PS-How did Amanda Knox and/or Raffaele Sollecito transport this knife BACK to Raffaele's pad?
In Amanda's big ol' purse?
Or maybe Raf stuck it in his waistband?

Did they wash it 1st at Amanda Knox's place before they did so?
Or did they take it back with Meredith Kerchers blood still on it?
Hmmm, I wonder...

Amanda carried the knife in her big purse. Naturally, if you have a big purse, you need a big knife to put in it. What's so hard to understand about that? Good point though. Where were the traces of blood on Amanda's purse?

Apparently the knife was kept as some kind of trophy of their horrific crime, cleverly disguised in the cutlery drawer.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

If people think the luminol footprints at the cottage were composed of Meredith's blood, despite the negative TMB and DNA tests, I would like to hear an explanation of what activity caused them to be deposited in the locations and positions where they were found, as follows:

- one between the bathroom door and Meredith's door, with the toes pointed toward Meredith's door (attributed to Amanda)
- two (both right footprints) side by side outside Amanda's door, with the toes pointed toward the kitchen (one attributed to Raffaele)
- one in Amanda's room (attributed to Amanda)

Bonus points for explaining why no bare footprints were found inside the room where Meredith was killed.

I'm disappointed that I can't seem to get any takers on this challenge.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

PS-How did Amanda Knox and/or Raffaele Sollecito transport this knife BACK to Raffaele's pad?
In Amanda's big ol' purse?
Or maybe Raf stuck it in his waistband?

It has been worked out with great skill and creativity on another forum. Amanda used the Harry Potter book as a sheath. I kid you not.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Are you saying that those that believe in the innocence of Amanda and Raffaele believe Rudy is guilty because he is black?

This goes back to a fundamental problem - discerning good evidence from bad evidence. If people think luminol footprints in the hallway have as much forensic significance as a bloody fingerprint next to the victim's body, then they will never be able to understand why the case against Amanda and Raffaele is not as strong as the case against Rudy.

 

[Machiavelli]

UTTERLY ILLOGICAL!
Hi Machiavelli/Yummi,
Utterly illogical is stabbing someone to her death, taking that knife home,
washing it, NO, scrubbing it and putting it back in the drawer to then use to cut the fish you are gonna cook for your new girlfriend for dinner...

(..)

I would stop even at the first sentence, stabbing her to death is utterly illogical. It is the most illogical among the illogical points, whoever was it to do it and whatever the rest.
I thought the same about taking a murder weapon back to your home. But I have to start on a datum: DNA of Maredith was found on the blade.
Before making inferences on the use of the knife (was it a murder weapon? was it actually used for stabbing?) the problem is the finding Meredith's DNA on an object in Raffaele's apartment, and an object only handled by Amanda, something not explainable in innocent terms.

 

[Justinian2]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-07-01/the-other-murders-that-could-save-her/2/

In the afterword, Preston writes that Mignini relies on a Roman psychic named Gabriella Carlizzi, who advises him on satanic sects—a point denied by both Carlizzi and Mignini, although they do admit knowing each other. (In fact, Mignini has charged Carlizzi with defamation on more than one occasion.) At one point in the investigation of Narducci in the Monster case, the prosecutors considered a satanic cult angle, and the investigators in Perugia initially suggested that Kercher might have been murdered in a satanic ritual because the murder occurred just after Halloween. But that theory has long been purged from the dossier and has played no part in the prosecution’s case against Knox.

Apparently the Fiends of Magnini support someone that may rely on psychics.

[...] But I have to start on a datum: DNA of Maredith was found on the blade.
Before making inferences on the use of the knife (was it a murder weapon? was it actually used for stabbing?) the problem is the finding Meredith's DNA on an object in Raffaele's apartment, and an object only handled by Amanda, something not explainable in innocent terms.

You have heard of 'Black Magic' in Oklahoma. There are several others in the USA alone. Poor forensic work is fairly common. Perhaps you should learn to qualify your statements. You should not write "something not explainable in innocent terms". You should add the word 'usually'. "something not usually explainable in innocent terms

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'm disappointed that I can't seem to get any takers on this challenge.

I'll go for the bonus points, the footprints were made after the murder and maybe even after Amanda had locked Meredith's door. That wasn't very hard, now, how many points do I get?