"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[live830]

If a girl intends to go solo it should be at the point where she's into the relationship enough to be thinking about having sex with a guy. Then at that point the guy should be watching her back in case she does have a few too many out somewhere.

WTH? So, "Would you like to have lunch at my place?" is now "I'm ready to have sex, please come over to my place during lunch"? And why should she "already be thinking about having sex" with him? So that, just in case he does rape her, she can be all, "Oh, well; I was ready to have sex with him anyway"? Is that supposed to make rape easier on a victim?

By the time in the relationship we were in the position to be alone together it was already sexual.

I thought you just said things don't get sexual until you're able to be alone?

I may have been raped, I'm not sure if being coerced into sex a 4th or 5th time counts, some in this thread have suggested that's a bad thing

Cuz it's so funny.

 

[3point14]

Howz it speld?

Thinking now, over the last 15 years or so, I can't recall being alone with a woman, in my house or hers, that I didn't have sex with. By the time in the relationship we were in the position to be alone together it was already sexual.

(quote edited)

Really?

I've spent an awful lot of time alone in the company of some very attractive ladies that I really wasn't ever going to have sex with and whom I assume really weren't thinking of me that way. I think perhaps on this one, YMMV.

 

[Meed]

I've spent an awful lot of time alone in the company of some very attractive ladies that I really wasn't ever going to have sex with and whom I assume really weren't thinking of me that way. I think perhaps on this one, YMMV.

Same here.

 

[Furcifer]

WTH? So, "Would you like to have lunch at my place?" is now "I'm ready to have sex, please come over to my place during lunch"?

No I don't think so.

And why should she "already be thinking about having sex" with him? So that, just in case he does rape her, she can be all, "Oh, well; I was ready to have sex with him anyway"? Is that supposed to make rape easier on a victim?

Because there's no reason to be alone with the guy otherwise? You can't do anything besides go back to a guys house with him? I don't see your point, please clarify, you have me quite confused.

 

[3point14]

Because there's no reason to be alone with the guy otherwise? You can't do anything besides go back to a guys house with him? I don't see your point, please clarify, you have me quite confused.

Are you saying that a woman shouldn't be alone with a man, at his or her house, unless she intends or is thinking about having sex with him?

 

[Furcifer]

(quote edited)

Really?

I've spent an awful lot of time alone in the company of some very attractive ladies that I really wasn't ever going to have sex with and whom I assume really weren't thinking of me that way. I think perhaps on this one, YMMV.

And you're 15-22?

Of course YMMV, I assume you didn't rape them.

I'm not sure what your point is either. Of course a woman is free to hang out alone with you, that doesn't mean it isn't a high risk activity (that's in light of the fact that I'm sure 99.999% of the time nothing happens). If she's worried about being raped there's no real reason for it. You wouldn't have hung out with her had she said she wanted to meet at a bar instead? Or are you just pointing out that I happen to have sex more often when a woman invites me over for drinks than you? I suppose that's flattering but I don't see how it's relevant?

 

[live830]

If it were universally understood that a woman who chooses to be alone with a man is "already thinking about having sex with him," then an invitation to a meal at home would be construed as an invitation to sex.

Because there's no reason to be alone with the guy otherwise?

Sure there is. Men and women can dine, play games, and watch movies together at home without being sexual. It's actually a very good solution for poor college students, as a date or otherwise. The idea that a woman must first be ready to have sex with the guy before doing those things is silly.

You can't do anything besides go back to a guys house with him?

I didn't say that. I was questioning the reasoning that if a woman chooses to do this, she should be ready to have sex with him.

The problem is that this attitude exists. It should not be understood that you can have sex with someone just because she's alone with you in your home. I realize that establishing this "rule" of sorts makes it simpler to blame her if she refuses advances under these circumstances--and even if he proceeds despite protest (after all, she's alone with him at home: what should she expect, right?)--but she's not the unreasonable one: he is, for assuming that.

 

[Furcifer]

Are you saying that a woman shouldn't be alone with a man, at his or her house, unless she intends or is thinking about having sex with him?

If she's a woman between the ages of 16-22 (or 15-24ish say), no she needn't be.

There's exceptions to any rule of course. Men make their intentions pretty well known towards a woman almost instantly. If she knows it's platonic or he's gay or something it's probably safe. I don't believe a friend that isn't attracted to her suddenly decides he's going to rape her.

 

[Furcifer]

If it were universally understood that a woman who chooses to be alone with a man is "already thinking about having sex with him," then an invitation to a meal at home would be construed as an invitation to sex.

Really? That seems like an awfully big jump for a guy to take.

Sure there is. Men and women can dine, play games, and watch movies together at home without being sexual. It's actually a very good solution for poor college students, as a date or otherwise. The idea that a woman must first be ready to have sex with the guy before doing those things is silly.

Nobody says they have to. I'm saying it's rather easy to avoid by simply inviting more than just one guy over. There's what 8 billion people on this planet? Granted they can't all make it tonight for charades, but there's certainly more than 1.

I didn't say that. I was questioning the reasoning that if a woman chooses to do this, she should be ready to have sex with him.

Why? Because she doesn't have any other friends to hang out with?

The problem is that this attitude exists. It should not be understood that you can have sex with someone just because she's alone with you in your home.

Who said a guy could have sex with a woman because he's alone with her? I'm saying she should be prepared to if she wants to entirely avoid the chance of being raped.

I realize that establishing this "rule" of sorts makes it simpler to blame her if she refuses advances under these circumstances--and even if he proceeds despite protest (after all, she's alone with him at home: what should she expect, right?)--but she's not the unreasonable one: he is, for assuming that.

I don't see this connection at all. What does refraining from being alone with some "acquaintance" have to do with "blame"

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Are you kidding me? I pray you don't have a daughter. If I found out a 19 year old guy was hanging around my 15 year old daughter I'd castrate him and ground her. FFS it's practically a law. Do you know what statutory rape is? Even a 2 year age gap is flirting with trouble.

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum.

 

[Furcifer]

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum.

This alone isn't very helpful, in fact it's just trolling. If you want to be thought of as more than a troll elaborate on this a little more. Explain why you think it's ridiculous. I know you're new but you should know what is or isn't a worthwhile post. Expand on the idea so we can discuss it.

Did your dad let you hang around 19 year old guys when you were 15? Would you let your daughter go out with and be alone somewhere, possibly drinking with someone 4 years older than you at that age? My younger sister was 5 years younger and we had nothing in common at that age. I didn't find her or her friends amusing or fun to be around. There was no reason to hang around with her, or have my friends hanging around with her. If I would have found out one of my friends was hanging around with or off alone drinking with my sister there would have been hell to pay. I can assure you this is not ridiculous.

 

[CORed]

The point about alcohol and rape is about victims who are incapacitated and unable to give consent. Not about people who have been wearing beer goggles and regret it after they sober up. Being too drunk to consent pretty much rules out active participation. I have never heard of a case being prosecuted where the complainant says she actively participated at the time but then claimed it was not true consent because she was too drunk to know what she was doing.

I think (at least I hope) that we can all agree that having sex with a women who is unconscious, or if not unconscious, is so intoxicated that she really can't consent or resist, is rape.

Unfortunately, there seem to be people who believe that even a woman who has consumed some alcohol, but is still functional enough to enthusiastically participate in, or even initiate sex has been raped if she decides upon sobering up that she really wishes she hadn't had sex. Curiously, I have never seen anybody contend that the same is true of a man in a similar situation. Of course, radical feminists abhor double standards, except when they favor women. It also raises the question, if a drunk man and a drunk woman have sex, and both regret it the next day , are they both guilty of rape?

There have most certainly been some prosecutions based on this theory. I'm not sure if there have been convictions. This raises several questions: Should a man who wants to have sex with a woman who may have consumed alcohol carry around a breathalyzer? At what blood alcohol level is a woman deemed to be too drunk to give consent?

I'm going to put forth a proposition, which I'm sure the OP and maybe some others in this thread will promptly brand as "blaming the victim": If you do something while drunk, that you regret deeply when sober, perhaps you should consider reducing or eliminating your alcohol consumption, in stead of accusing the other participant(s) in that activity of a major felony.

 

[Morrigan]

Seriously?

Eh, yeah. If you want to engage in honest, straight-forward discussion, say what you mean the first time. Don't use lame euphemisms that are prone to being misinterpreted and then backpedal when you're allegedly being "misinterpreted". You're just muddling the issue.

A house full of people isn't the best place to commit a rape (it's hard to be ALONE) I don't know how you missed from the same paragraph that over 2/3 of all rapes happen in the victim or perpetrators home.

I didn't miss that at all. All I said was that it was "interesting".

If a girl intends to go solo it should be at the point where she's into the relationship enough to be thinking about having sex with a guy.

Unbelievable. Really. If a woman intends to be alone with a guy for any period of time, she should be already thinking about sex with the guy, or else she's being horribly careless and walking into rape-traps.

Got it.

(I may have been raped, I'm not sure if being coerced into sex a 4th or 5th time counts, some in this thread have suggested that's a bad thing )

Huh. So rape is so serious that you'd lock up your teenage daughter and prevent her from being around any older guy whatsoever just in case there's a remote possibility one of them has any nefarious intention about her... but not that serious that you can't make lame jokes about it. Telling...

Anyhow, I'm not sure what point you're trying to get at, aside from this nonsense about "hanging out". I meant it in the pseudo-platonic all by ourselves, let's watch a movie at my place and have a drink "hanging out". I'm sure the guys know what I'm talking about when a 19 year old is "hanging out" with a 15 year old, sniffing around, up to no good "hanging out". It sure is heck isn't playing video games with an older brothers friends "hanging out" like you are going on about. And it isn't just about having sex. It's about looking to see if they can get some sex or what not "hanging out".

So watching a movie with that guy is "suspicious, up to no good hanging out", but playing video games and just being around talking is "harmless, okay, come-on-that's-not-at-all-what-I'm-talking-about hanging out". Hmm, okay...

It's interesting because the more I read about rape occurrences and rape statistics, the more I realize that I fit perfectly well into the typical rape victim case. The older brother's friends raping the younger sister? Seems like a frequent case, to be honest. My brother's friends have had ample opportunities to rape me when I was a teen. Had they been those kinds of people, they could surely have had their way with me, and used threats or coercion or manipulation to frighten me into silence. Thankfully, they weren't like that at all. But I wonder, if something did happen to me, what people would have thought; oh, poor girl, but she really should have stayed away from those older boys...? Hmm.

Are you saying that a woman shouldn't be alone with a man, at his or her house, unless she intends or is thinking about having sex with him?

Sounds like it. Quite unreasonable, really.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Did your dad let you hang around 19 year old guys when you were 15?

Yes, I went to the other side of the country to do this, even.

Would you let your daughter go out with and be alone somewhere, possibly drinking with someone 4 years older than you at that age?

I wouldn't want my daughter drinking at 15. The age difference I have no problem with.

My younger sister was 5 years younger and we had nothing in common at that age.

My best friend from 13-14 until now was and is 4 years older than me.

I didn't find her or her friends amusing or fun to be around. There was no reason to hang around with her, or have my friends hanging around with her. If I would have found out one of my friends was hanging around with or off alone drinking with my sister there would have been hell to pay

Once again drinking at 15 is a bad idea. The age difference isn't necessarily a problem. Lots of people are very mature at 15, lots are very immature at 19.

I can assure you this is not ridiculous.

It is, and you're overprotective to the point of being absurd.

 

[Furcifer]

It is, and you're overprotective to the point of being absurd.

Has anyone in your family been assaulted, taken advantage of, raped?

I ask because I don't think you're in the position to know. You've given a personal anecdote, and you're position seems young and naive based on your limited experience.

The statistics show you to be wrong, because if you have someone looking out for you you're better off in life. This goes well beyond rape.

What's absurd is knowing the facts and not doing something to protect someone you love.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You don't really want me to believe that men are such libidinous beasts that once turned on, they cannot control themselves if told no?

No. Which is probably why he posted this:

I'm not blaming the woman for the man's actions. Regardless of what she did, regardless of the messages she sent, any man should be able to control himself enough to cease sexual activity if the woman does not want it.

One must read what is actually posted, rather than what they think was posted.

 

[chillzero]

Why? Because she doesn't have any other friends to hang out with?

So females cannot choose to have male friends ... unless they have chaperones at all times? Really?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Has anyone in your family been assaulted, taken advantage of, raped?

I ask because I don't think you're in the position to know. You've given a personal anecdote, and you're position seems young and naive based on your limited experience.

The statistics show you to be wrong, because if you have someone looking out for you you're better off in life. This goes well beyond rape.

What's absurd is knowing the facts and not doing something to protect someone you love.

Preventing your 15-year old daughter from hanging out with 19-year olds will prevent rape? Do you really have any statistics to back that up, as you claim, or is that just your personal idea of "looking out for"?

I'm from Sweden, we're raised with slightly more liberal values here. My parents met when my mother was 16 and my father 22, for instance. My father was of course a worthless bum looking to take adv-, oh, no, he was studying at a medical university. Dang.

The age of consent here is 15, which in my opinion is a very reasonable age (although I think there should be a 2-year span so that someone who's 16 isn't punished for sleeping with someone who's 14). Someone who is 15 can be mature enough to hang out with someone who's 19, and there is no reason why she should not be able to judge the situation. Honestly, if you can't raise your children to tell the difference, isn't that your mistake as a parent? Plus, by definitely closing off the road, you're not only creating a "forbidden fruit" (children WILL find a way to thwart you), but you're also not letting your child have any independence.

My parents raised me, not forbidding things, but educating me about their dangers, and always explaining that they'd help me if anything went wrong, and learned me to evaluate and understand risks. What happened? Well, I was 18 first time I got drunk, I've been around the country many times in my teens without any trouble, and I've never gotten into any problems.

Sure, anecdote. You can wave that away. But then I'd like to see that letting your 15-year old hanging out with 19-year olds (and remember, ANY 19-year old, not just the quickest straw man you can make up!) will significantly increase her chance of getting raped.

 

[Furcifer]

Eh, yeah. If you want to engage in honest, straight-forward discussion, say what you mean the first time. Don't use lame euphemisms that are prone to being misinterpreted and then backpedal when you're allegedly being "misinterpreted". You're just muddling the issue.

Unbelievable. Really. If a woman intends to be alone with a guy for any period of time, she should be already thinking about sex with the guy, or else she's being horribly careless and walking into rape-traps.

Got it.

Good, it's not that hard to understand. I'm surprised it took this long.

Huh. So rape is so serious that you'd lock up your teenage daughter and prevent her from being around any older guy whatsoever just in case there's a remote possibility one of them has any nefarious intention about her... but not that serious that you can't make lame jokes about it. Telling...

Because the two are related. Are you being serious or not?

So watching a movie with that guy is "suspicious, up to no good hanging out", but playing video games and just being around talking is "harmless, okay, come-on-that's-not-at-all-what-I'm-talking-about hanging out". Hmm, okay...

You said it was with a group of your brothers friends, not alone. Are you having trouble seeing the HUGE difference?

It's interesting because the more I read about rape occurrences and rape statistics, the more I realize that I fit perfectly well into the typical rape victim case. The older brother's friends raping the younger sister? Seems like a frequent case, to be honest. My brother's friends have had ample opportunities to rape me when I was a teen. Had they been those kinds of people, they could surely have had their way with me, and used threats or coercion or manipulation to frighten me into silence. Thankfully, they weren't like that at all. But I wonder, if something did happen to me, what people would have thought; oh, poor girl, but she really should have stayed away from those older boys...? Hmm.

Ahh, here we are. Finally.

"I engaged in a high risk activity and I'm fine so everyone else should be too"

I think I finally see what the problem is. People like yourself, because it's not all that common, think because you beat the odds everybody should do what you did. You're contributing to the problem. You don't want to acknowledge the facts, and you encourage others to do the same. You actually believe telling men to act like the men you know is going to work.
That isn't going to work. The sooner you realize that some people are just messed up and aren't going to do what you tell them the sooner women will be prepared and not wander into things naively. Then instead of being a victim they can help prevent these assaults from happening and the police can start locking these guys behind bars, so the rest of us guys, the good ones, don't have to worry about the idiots running around messing it up for us.

 

[Furcifer]

So females cannot choose to have male friends ... unless they have chaperones at all times? Really?

No, women can have as many or as few male friends as their hearts desire