Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[tsig]

I'm sure you enjoy hiding behind the judge's statements.

I think Vanessa tried to help her brother and fell into the web of the spider Mignini. I heard she was trying to get her job back, I'm not sure what's happening there.

Nice turn of phrase. Was it a poison spider?

 

[Machiavelli]

Coercion is a side issue. I should have left well enough alone, since I already know that you believe that Raffaele's statement that the police tortured him psychologically does not actually mean that the police tortured him psychologically.

I'll return to your claim that you are basing your position on Raffaele's interrogation, writings, statements, diary, defense, etc. At no point in any of this documentation does Raffaele ever give any direct indication of any kind of involvement in the murder. What entitles you, then, to reinterpret his words as expressions of guilt, when that is clearly not his intention?

Well I don't actually interpret his words as "expression of guilt". I realize his explanations and stories are inconsistent, and not credible.
About his position in police interrogation, I think it contains outright lies and grave contradictions.
I also think his writings are omissive, elusive, deceptive. They are disturbing to me as a reader, and not just to me.

 

[Magister]

It is not comon for an average citizen to have a pillar of Bari masonry as prof. Introna and Giulia Bongiorno on his payroll.

Is this a black mark against Dr Sollecito?

 

[platonov]

Originally Posted by LondonJohn
I definitely had my passport checked last week within the EU. And, in any case, if Knox had tried to flee Switzerland to another EU country, she'd have had to find a mode of transportation which would have required identification as some part. (..)

Maybe OT - I am wondering: could this be due to exceptional security in the context of the last weeks of political demonstrations in France?

Or perhaps the tentacles of the 'Fiends of Mignini' have a long reach.


On a more serious note, leaving aside that this whole argument is redundant, can you imagine a cop within [or without] the Schengen Area using this excuse in a press conference following the escape of a suspect [a foreign national] in a high profile murder case.
Imagine for example it was an Ivorian or a Pakistani suspect - drifters in other words.


ETA do spiders have tentacles ?

.

 

[Machiavelli]

I'm sure you enjoy hiding behind the judge's statements.

I think Vanessa tried to help her brother and fell into the web of the spider Mignini. I heard she was trying to get her job back, I'm not sure what's happening there.

Who told you she is trying to get her job back? Given the indictment of her family members, in no way she can ever be a Carabiniere again.
The Carabinieri is not like an office wher you just have a job. It is a bit like a religious order. Their criteria are selective - or chauvinist - in a way different from any other military corp as much as I know. Maybe the Vatican Swiss Guards is the only more septary corp in Europe.

 

[Machiavelli]

Is this a black mark against Dr Sollecito?

No, it is not about anything illegal that Sollecito's family could have done. Their morality and abeiding to the law is not the point. The point is family resources and their goal, their determination in attempting to obtain impunity for Raffaele. The desire of Raffaele to escape could easilly meet the resources of his network, as it happened in the case of Ludwig, or Claudia Maggiulli.

 

[moodstream]

Well I don't actually interpret his words as "expression of guilt". I realize his explanations and stories are inconsistent, and not credible.
About his position in police interrogation, I think it contains outright lies and grave contradictions.
I also think his writings are omissive, elusive, deceptive. They are disturbing to me as a reader, and not just to me.

Would it be too much trouble to ask you to enumerate each lie, and to spell out the approximate time and place for context?

Could you further list the contradictions, and explain how it is a contradiction?

Please, if at all possible, be specific and concrete. On the one hand, your posts are strongly declarative, but provide no actual information;( e.g. "his explanations and stories are inconsistent, and not credible", "it contains outright lies and grave contradictions". "his writings are omissive, elusive, deceptive." etc.) Thus, you force your reader to respond as though blindfolded, guessing about the exact information you are using to make your claims. It is very hard to argue well against such general statements.

 

[Magister]

delete

 

[Machiavelli]

Why is it wrong for Dr Sollecito to employ the services of Professor Introna and Giulia Bongiorno on behalf of his son?

Why do you make me repeat? I didn't say it's wrong. I said that wrong or right, morality of each one action, is not the point.
The point is Raffaele is not reliable and not incapable to deploy resources for escape, and the network is not harmless.

 

[Justinian2]

Yes, they should be as well. Read Justianian2's posts regarding Amanda and this case; they go beyond an "Internet diagnosis". They are creepy, disturbing and out of line whether one believes Amanda is guilty or not.

My last post referred/linked to a parody of DSM IV which actually brands everyone as a having a PD of one type or another and, perhaps, also a spoof of the 'normal' person who is inclined to follow the herd. It is not to be taken literally.

http://isnt.autistics.org/index.html
The articles on this website describe the neurotypical - "normal" - person as if they are diseased. They are making a point that perhaps autism isn't a disease.

We need to lighten up a bit, eh?

My point is that we can view the 'normal' person as having a PD (personality defect) just as easily as we can brand AK with an imagined 'PD'.

 

[RWVBWL]

treehorn,

Daniel said, "Da quel girono non ho piu' *rivisto ne' sentito Amanda, della quale peraltro non posseggo neanche il numero del cellulare, ne le altre ragazze. Ne ho avuto occasione di ritornare a Perugia a trovare**i miei amici"
*
Roughly translated, this means "From that day, I neither saw nor spoke to Amanda, whose cell phone number I didn't have, nor that of the other girls. I had no other opportunity to return to Perugia to visit my friends".*

I hope this settles the matter of Daniel's one night stand.

Greetings Halides1, and Treehorn too,
Thanks for digging up that quote Halides1!
On a Saturday night I'm at a bro's house drinkin' a few Tecate beers with a some of the boys,
and I borrowed a computer to check in to JREF for a moment and now wish to add my 2 cents to continue our debate...

I too was aware of the fact that Daniel had said what you posted Halides1, and so during the course of our discussion with Treehorn
I have wondered why Barbie Nadeau, a journalist from Newsweek, included something that appears to be false and very misleading in her book?

Why?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Withnail1969]

Really? We'll enlighten me LJ, where and when have you been asked to produce your passport or drivers license when crossing over from one EU member state to another? I know that I've been driving from Holland to Italy a number of times over the years (since 1988) without ever having my id papers checked at any of the border crossings. Those routes over the years included driving from Holland through Belgium, Luxembourg and France or Germany and then Switzerland or Austria.

I do agree that when requested anyone should be able to produce a passport or drivers license but the reality is that those requests are almost never made.


Well, my faith and confidence that the US will do the right thing isn't quite as strong as it once was. So I would err on the side of caution too and put AK in prison till this mess was sorted out.


Right back at ya

Leaving the country for another EU country wouldn't really have helped Amanda. It didn't help Rudy. She wouldn't be able to leave the EU without a passport and there would be an all points bulletin issued for her arrest.

I suppose you could imagine her getting an illicit speedboat to Albania or Libya or somewhere while her family members languished in jail in Perugia for allowing her escape. With her rudimentary Italian, that would be quite a challenge and no doubt extremely expensive. Still without a passport, I don't know where she'd go from there.

In the UK, we have a system of electronic tags so that curfew orders and control orders are fairly common here. Doesn't Italy have these?

 

[Withnail1969]

Of course, if Amanda had been a child molester, house arrest would have been no problem...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ouse-arrest-in-Italy-/articleshow/5820083.cms

Indian priest accused of paedophilia under house arrest in Italy
TERAMO (Italy): An Indian priest who confessed to sexually abusing a 10-year-old girl in central Italy has been placed under house arrest.

The priest, identified only as David, was transferred to an unnamed location, believed to be a local convent after being charged with sexual violence in the town of Teramo, 175 km northeast of Rome.

Or a Nazi war criminal accused of 335 murders...

http://en.mercopress.com/2010/10/06...arrest-conditions-of-a-former-nazi-ss-captain

Outrage in Italy over house arrest conditions of a former Nazi SS captain

Jewish groups have expressed outrage that a former Nazi SS captain convicted for his role in the massacre of 335 civilians in Italy is allowed out from his house detention to go shopping or to church.

And if you're a Mafia boss, you can be released from prison to house arrest if you become a little depressed while being in prison...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-released-from-prison-due-to-depression.html

Mafia boss released from prison due to 'depression'
A decision to release an alleged mafia boss from prison because he is suffering from depression has caused outrage in Italy.
By Nick Squires in Rome 12:38PM BST 04 Jun 2009

A court in Sicily, home of the powerful Cosa Nostra mafia, ruled that Giacomo Maurizio Ieni, 52, can be held under house arrest rather than jail after he broke down in front of a parole board.

"I'm really depressed and I can't take prison any more," Ieni reportedly told the board, in a scenario reminiscent of the hit TV series The Sopranos, in which fictional New Jersey mafia boss Tony Soprano seeks help from a psychiatrist for chronic depression.

 

[Withnail1969]

Who told you she is trying to get her job back? Given the indictment of her family members, in no way she can ever be a Carabiniere again.
The Carabinieri is not like an office wher you just have a job. It is a bit like a religious order. Their criteria are selective - or chauvinist - in a way different from any other military corp as much as I know. Maybe the Vatican Swiss Guards is the only more septary corp in Europe.

Are you saying that even if Vanessa herself has done nothing she still can't be a carabiniere because her brother has been charged with a crime? Isn't that somewhat mediaeval and doesn't it breach Vanessa's human rights in some way?

It's a shame that these high standards you talk about aren't applied to senior figures in Italy's legal system, such as Giuliano Mignini. A mere conviction for abuse of office seems to have done his career no harm at all.

 

[Justinian2]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/11/amanda-knox-conviction-doubt

Knox says that during her initial questioning – deemed inadmissible as evidence at her trial because she was taken in as a witness and had no lawyer with her – she was repeatedly struck on the head by the police. They say she is lying, just as, it is implied, she lied about having nothing to do with the killing itself.

Is it possible that the 'slander charges' by the police were designed to force Amanda's lawyers to have the confession - and perhaps the video of that confession - admitted into evidence in order to clear the slander charge?

Force to the point of torture - and perhaps beyond - seems to be the modus operandi of the police. So why not?

 

[Mary_H]

It is quite true that my post was intended as a lampoon. Since neither Mary_H nor Machiavelli fall into the classification of "conspiracy theorists" in my opinion your allegation of "aiming" is itself mis-aimed.

I do indeed assert that it was general irony, and I think that the prior exchanges substantiate such an assertion. Even Halides1's contribution continued in the same vein, so I am not alone in such a perception. Unless, of course, your incisive deconstruction of his post is still pending, in which case I shall await further enlightenment with bated breath.<snip>

I thought the comment was very funny, especially the phrase "inter-Vast International Conspiracy agreements"

 

[Mary_H]

cartwheel fascist world


.

Sounds like a lyric from a '60's rock song.

 

[Mary_H]

So your argument is that when the 'ILE' operating in the 'most corrupt state ever' manage to foil a bid to 'pervert the course of justice' in a murder case and produce wiretap evidence leading to criminal charges ....... something , something. What is it again ?

Are all police/judicial actions directed against the perpetrators (or their associates) in the Kercher murder case suspect by their very nature.
This is a form of 'skepticism' I'm not familiar with (outside of this thread at any rate).

As it happens I have no idea of what codes or procedures were applied in this regard. But I put that down to my lack of knowledge of/access to all the relevant data. I certainly don't suspect malfeasance based my ignorance of the particulars or my unhappiness with the outcome.

.

Maybe LondonJohn suspects malfeasance based on the guilty verdict in Mignini's earlier trial for illegal wiretapping.

"All police/judicial actions directed against the perpetrators (or their associates) in the Kercher murder case" are not suspect by their very nature. They are suspect because of what we have observed about how the parts of the investigation that we do have information about were conducted.

The question is why your form of skepticism extends only as far as to David, and never to Goliath.

 

[LondonJohn]

Maybe LondonJohn suspects malfeasance based on the guilty verdict in Mignini's earlier trial for illegal wiretapping.

"All police/judicial actions directed against the perpetrators (or their associates) in the Kercher murder case" are not suspect by their very nature. They are suspect because of what we have observed about how the parts of the investigation that we do have information about were conducted.

The question is why your form of skepticism extends only as far as to David, and never to Goliath.

Exactly. And, in addition, platonov seems to be advocating a position that "the end justifies the means" - which runs contrary to most modern jurisprudence practice. If this maxim were applied rigorously, then we might as well tap everybody's phone (a la Police State), and as a result we could undoubtedly stop more crimes from taking place. But in a civilised democratic state, we instead require there to be clear evidence of criminal activity taking place before someone's phones can be tapped.

BTW with regard to the inter-EU-member-state travel situation, it's possible that my transit between Germany and France last week was unusual, and I see that Switzerland only joined the Schengen area in December 2008 (and I last crossed the Italy/Switz border in February 2008). So I think I'm probably wrong about the "normal" state of affairs, and apologise for my false confidence on this issue. But of course it doesn't change the fact that Knox would have had to have a passport to return to the USA - which was explicitly the concern of the court when deciding on imprisonment over any form of house arrest.

 

[LondonJohn]

Leaving the country for another EU country wouldn't really have helped Amanda. It didn't help Rudy. She wouldn't be able to leave the EU without a passport and there would be an all points bulletin issued for her arrest.

I suppose you could imagine her getting an illicit speedboat to Albania or Libya or somewhere while her family members languished in jail in Perugia for allowing her escape. With her rudimentary Italian, that would be quite a challenge and no doubt extremely expensive. Still without a passport, I don't know where she'd go from there.

In the UK, we have a system of electronic tags so that curfew orders and control orders are fairly common here. Doesn't Italy have these?

That's a very good point. I believe that electronic tags were in widespread use here by around the year 2000, so it would be surprising if a nation such as Italy hadn't introduced a similar system by 2007.