The Great Thermate Debate

Excaza, we've already gone over that territory several other times.

If you don't understand that the sand castle cannot apply the same force against the anvil, I can't help you.
 
ergo said:
Excaza, we've already gone over that territory several other times.

If you don't understand that the sand castle cannot apply the same force against the anvil, I can't help you.
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Except it does, so it seems you're the one beyond help.
 
Originally Posted by Sunstealer View Post

If thermite had been used in 911 we would see tonnes of waste product from the thermite and large single holes in specific parts of the structure replicated many times. It would look extremely unusual to anyone recovering steel.
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ergo said:
And 0.5% of the steel was studied. No analysis has yet been done on how many columns and at what intervals would need to be severed in this fashion. Your claim of "tonnes" of waste product seems to be a guess based on an unspecified model. We also have not yet seen the effects of nanothermite or what byproducts would be produced by this substance.
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Wrong


Astaneh-Asl
“One week after the collapse of the World Trade Center, the author, armed with a research grant from the National Science Foundation, arrived in New york and started collection of perishable data and investigating the remains of structural steel from the World Trade Center buildings. The main goals of the author’s field investigations were:
a. To visit the site and map the collapsed structure and the debris.
b. Inspect quality of construction
c. Collect samples of material for further studies
d. Collect drawings and information on design, construction and maintenance
e. Establish failure modes and formulate a hypothesis for causes of collapse.

Figures 6 shows views of various components of the World Trade Center Towers after collapse. By inspecting the remains of the steel structure visually, it appeared that the construction and fabrication of the steel structure was of high quality and no apparent flaws could be observed. Several components of the steel structure appeared to be from the impact areas although at the time of inspection it was not possible to identify the location of these pieces. Such pieces were preserved and later were turned over to the National Institute of Standards and Technology for testing and identification.”

http://www.crono911.net/docs/AstanehWTC.pdf

“World Trade Center Post-Disaster Reconnaisance and Perishable Structural Engineering Data Collection
Project Participants
Senior Personnel
Name: Astaneh-Asl, Abolhassan
Worked for more than 160 Hours: Yes
Contribution to Project:
A. Astaneh was PI for this Small Grant for Exploratory Research (SGER) of NSF. One week after the tragic collapse of the World
Trade Center, supported by this GSER, he traveled to New York and stayed for two weeks in Hotel Tribeca which was few blocks from Ground Zero. First he met with Mr. Leslie Robertson and visited Ground Zero with him. Mr. Robertson is the structural designer of the collapsed World Trade Center Towers.

The project was a Small Grant for Exploratory Research. The main goal was to conduct reconnaissance of collapsed WTC towers and to collect perishable data. Dr. Astaneh, P.I. has traveled to New York City twice to conduct investigation of structure of WTC. Early investigation was done near Ground Zero as steel was being transported to recycling plants. Later investigations were conducted at the recycling plant where steel is being recycled. Some data on drawings and structures of WTC were obtained, and continues to be obtained from design offices of the structural firms who have designed the original structures. Photos taken during or immediately after the collapse have been purchased.

Findings To Date: During the 1st ten days of stay, most of the investigation was on the structure of Building 7 of the WTC. The 47-story structure was burning for almost 7 hours before it collapsed. During the 2nd 10 days of his stay in NYC, Dr. Astaneh has been able to establish contact with one of the recycling plants in New Jersey recycling the majority of steel from the WTC. He has conducted more systematic part of his investigation there. He has been able to investigate and document a large number of steel structural members. Some of his most striking achievements have been to identify and save at least four members (columns and beams) from the WTC Towers that appear to be important pieces perhaps from the floors that were subjected to intense heat. “

http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

[qimg]http://www.historycommons.org/events-images/a838_abolhassan_astaneh_2050081722-21407.jpg[/qimg]
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FEMA/SEAoNY/ASCE engineers:

“As of March 15, 2002, a total of 131 engineer visits had been made to these yards on 57 separate days. An engineer visit typically ranged from a few hours to an entire day at a salvage yard. The duration of the visits, number of visits per yard, and the dates the yards were visited varied, depending on the volume of steel being processed, the potential significance of the steel pieces being found, salvage yard activities, weather, and other factors. Sixty-two engineer trips were made to Jersey City, 38 to Keasbey, 15 to Fresh Kills, and 16 to Newark.

Three trips made in October included several ASCE engineers. Eleven engineer trips were made in November, 41 in December, 43 in January, 28 in February, and 5 through March 15, 2002.

D.3.1 Identifying and Saving Pieces
As shown in Figure D-4, the engineers searched through unsorted piles of steel for pieces from WTC 1 and WTC 2 impact areas and from WTC 5 and WTC 7. They also checked for pieces of steel exposed to fire.
Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
• Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.
• Connections from WTC 1, 2, and 7, such as seat connections, single shear plates, and column splices.
• Bolts from WTC 1, 2, and 7 that were exposed to fire, fractured, and/or that appeared undamaged.
• Floor trusses, including stiffeners, seats, and other components.
• Any piece that, in the engineer’s professional opinion, might be useful for evaluation. When there was any doubt about a particular piece, the piece was kept while more information was gathered. A conservative approach was taken to avoid having important pieces processed in salvage yard operations.

WTC 1&2 Core column recovery and identificaton
Index of steel saved for analysis is at NCSTAR 1-A, Appendix E. Index is on page 275. (page 61 of the PDF) FEMA Steel collected spreadsheet (PDF)
• Most of the core columns recovered were significantly deformed, which made it difficult to select undeformed regions to harvest test specimens from. Even the relatively straight sections were often slightly bent. NIST NCSTAR 1-3D "Mechanical properties of structural steel," page 48 (82 in the PDF).
• Out of the 55 wide flange sections and built-up box sections recovered, 12 core columns were positively identified from WTC 1 and 2, including:
– Two columns from the fire floors of WTC 1,
– Two columns from the impact zone of WTC 2. NIST NCSTAR 1-3B Steel inventory and ID, page xxv (page 27 in the PDF).
• 12 columns were unambiguously identified as core columns with their as-build locations known, 12 wide flange sections were found to have markings that were not interpretable, and 31 columns were without any markings at all. Due to the ambiguous nature of the last two groups, only the first group of samples were analyzed. NCSTAR 1-3C Damage and Failure modes of structural steel components, page 197 (247 of PDF)
• In the two buildings, there were 329 core columns (each three stories tall) traversing floors involved in fires. NIST has portions of four of these columns, and on average about half of each column was recovered. While these pieces allow some comparison of metal and paint condition with the predications of the fire model, the recovered steel represents less than one percent of all the core columns intersecting floors with fire. Thus, the forensic analysis indicating moderate temperature excursions in the recovered core columns does not, and cannot, give a picture of temperatures seen by the vast majority of the core columns. NCSTAR 1-3C, page xivi (PDF page 48)
• Core columns C-88a and C-88b, from WTC 2, were unique among the recovered core elements in that the columns were still connected at the welded column splice, Fig. 4-2. Both columns were 42 ksi built-up box columns with their shared splice in the 80th floor level. NCSTAR 1-3C, page 198 (page 248 of PDF).”
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apd.pdf

More at FEMA “World Trade Center Performance Study”
http://www.fema.gov/rebuild/mat/wtcstudy.shtm
[qimg]http://www.wtc7.net/docs/fig_d_7_s.jpg[/qimg]

Engineers performed a thorough, not cursory, unhindered forensic inspection of the WTC1,2,7 steel before it was shipped off. They found no evidence of explosives.​
 
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ergo said:
Right, because Newton's Third Law doesn't describe impacts. :rolleyes:
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No, because Newton's Third Law only specifies that the upper and lower blocks experience equal and opposite forces at any instant; it doesn't specify the magnitude or duration of those forces, which is what determines whether or not there's a jolt.

Dave
 
ergo said:
And 0.5% of the steel was studied. No analysis has yet been done on how many columns and at what intervals would need to be severed in this fashion. Your claim of "tonnes" of waste product seems to be a guess based on an unspecified model.
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I suggest that you get your calculator out and show how many beams/columns would need to be severed, how much steel is required to be melted and how much thermite would be needed then. Something no truther has managed. Get back to me when you've shown that I'm not around the ballpark figure.

How do I know you won't do this eh? Got maths/physics/chemistry? No - thought not.

ergo said:
We also have not yet seen the effects of nanothermite or what byproducts would be produced by this substance.
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Nanothermite is only using a smaller particle size. Nano does not mean magic or super-duper mmmkay.

Fe2O3 + 2Al → 2Fe + Al2O3 + heat

The waste product is Fe and Al2O3 - I suggest you learn some basic chemistry.
 
Michal said:
Apparenlty Leslie Robertson, says different. Make some research !!!
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' The Boeing 707 was the largest in use when the towers were designed. Robertson conducted a study in late 1964, to calculate the effect of a 707 weighing 263,000 pounds and traveling at 180 mph crashing into one of the towers. He concluded that the tower would remain standing. However, no official report of his study has ever surfaced publicly'
[GLANZ AND LIPTON, 2004, PP. 138-139, 366]

Robertson says 180 mph. He was responsible for the calculations. The energy of the actual impacts was far greater....

Read on Michal:

' To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance.'

'Leslie Robertson:] I support the general conclusions of the NIST report… The [WTC] was designed for the impact of a low flying slow flying Boeing 707. We envisioned it [to be like] the aircraft that struck the Empire State building [during] WW II. It was not designed for a high speed impact from the jets that actually hit it'
KGNU radio, 2006


Sorry Michal, YOU LOOSE!(sic)
 
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ergo said:
We're discussing the thermate experiments here, excaza.
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Since you claim that nanothermite was used and that it has different properties than thermite, these experiments are meaningless.
 
Quiproquo said:
Explaining to antitruthers the concept of CD is like trying to demonstrate the concept of gravity to a sceptic. The inevitable questions will be:

How does gravity pull us down to earth?

Where are the strings? (an antitruther constant)

Do you mean to say that it pulls me just as much with or without a ten-foot-thick slab of concrete between me and the earth?

How does the stuff 4,000 miles down know how hard to pull me?

:rolleyes:
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Dear Quiproqu,

You are wrong. We do understand the concept of CD. What we do not understand is 1) how this could possibly have worked using thermite or some variant thereof particularly in the light of the fact that 2) any evidence supporting the CD hypothesis is absent.
 
ergo said:
Um, maybe because they were looking at how that could have happened over days and weeks in a hot debris pile? Obviously, as is pointed out, sulfidation could also occur through thermate.



Where is your peer-reviewed paper on it?
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Where is yours?

Oh you mean the BENTHAM craptacular pile o fail.

really? Snort. Snicker.

But then again from someone who doesn't understand how "loose particles" can manage to damage something as simple as a car, I can understand how you could be fooled.
 
Reactor drone said:
Well I have to congratulate this truther for actually doing something, I do wish though that they'd finish their work before they present it.

I wasn't keen on the number of ... in the ... quotes used in the ...video.

Independant verification of the results would be nice, or at least better documentation of the experiments.

He got a swiss cheese effect which is great. Now he just needs to have it tested to see if it matches the eutectic corrosion on the couple of WTC samples that had a similar appearance.

His bolt burners were nice but lets have a look at some numbers. There's 4 bolts per column and you have access holes/joints on 1/3 of the columns on any 1 level, so that's 336 bolt burners to weaken 1/3 of a floors perimeter columns and 84 igniters (assuming 1 igniter can set off the 4 within a column).You'd probably also want to weaken the top and bottom of any particular panel so that would double your numbers and hitting more than 1/3 of the panels means more again. So we have the remains of potentially thousands of these things in the debris pile clanging around inside the perimeter columns........I wonder why none were found?

So, while this was an interesting experiment for him, it doesn't even begin to form a coherent demolition theory that matches observed features.
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Not to mention that the outer perimeter columns were box columns, and he was cutting through an I beam...
 
ergo said:
So, how do you explain the holes and corrosion that Jon Cole was able to produce in the steel at 10:38?
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The holes were burned through by the thermate he was able to force against the steel column. (good job him)

What corrosion? There was no corrosion in the video. Please support that claim or retract it.
 
Michal said:
so now we are sure YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT RF CD

you loose :)




typical empty skepticism, do some research yourself before taking any voice. You loose again.
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I don't think the word "loose" means what you think it means.
 
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