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The Great Thermate Debate

Thermate, is thermite with sulfer, and causes damage comprable to that of the swiss cheese steel FEMA found.


Please quote whatever you are referring to here specifically.

I understand the difference between thermite and thermate. Neither were used, the WPI study shows this. Look up previous threads on this topic.

The highly exothermic reaction and production of iron rich microspheres when it's ignited proves it's thermitic, and most obviously not paint. As for the notion that the XEDS map shows the aluminum platelets are already oxidized, they're not, but rather they're simply coated in a silicon oxide.

This is uninformed babble. The highly exothermic reaction was energetic in far excess of what thermite or thermate can produce; see previous threads and posts showing the violation of thermite's heat of reaction. You're behind on this topic, and are simply repeating points that have long been refuted.

Furthermore, the "production" of the iron microspheres was not established by the Jones team; it was merely claimed. They did not properly eliminate the possibility that they were already within the matrix of the combusted material before they were tested. Yes, I'm fully aware that they claimed they examined it and didn't find any, but at least one of Jones's micrographs that are supposedly "before" pictures shows an item that can be argued as being an iron microsphere. Add that to the fact that Jones has been known to distort evidence in the past, and you have a claim that needs more than their assertion to back it. Their claim is insufficient.

Also: The platelets are identified as Kaolin. Your assertion that they're simply silicon oxide coated platelets is unjustified, unsupported, and in fact, contradictory to the notion that this is a manufactured nanothermate composition since silicon dioxide would compete with the iron in the redox reaction with the aluminum. Furthermore, if SiO2 were indeed present with elemental i.e. free, unbound Aluminum (the presence of which that team did not establish, and was shown by Sunstealer to not even be present), sulfur (recall, you're the one claiming thermate) and combusted in air (as they did in their calorimeter test), one of their by-products would've been H2S gas. I don't recall reading that as being reported as a product by Jones and Harrit.

(And no, don't try to bring the notion that it could've been silicon monoxide. That would've oxidized in air to silicon dioxide and you would've been right at the spot I'm pointing out above. I'm aware of the application of silicon monoxide to astronomy optics, but there are other processes involved, as well as coatings or other methods to prevent the SiO from oxidizing in air. So that's a failed proposal from the start).

And lastly, as Sunstealer and The Almond have pointed out, those spheres are not "iron rich". They most definitely contain other substances.

Again, iron rich microspheres are found throughout the dust, as noted in the USGS particle atlas.

And have long been noted to be present well before 9/11, most likely due to it's known presence in concrete. Which also happens to square properly with the elevated microsphere findings after the collapses; that strongly indicates that the microspheres were liberated from concrete during the collapses. There's zero about Jones's and Harrit's work to prove the spheres were generated on 9/11 or via thermate reactions, and plenty to argue that they were already present beforehand in concrete. Again, this is ground well covered in previous threads. You need to catch up.

Regardless, even if the evidence that the buildings we rigged to come down had been buried, you've all still got squat for experimental confirmation to support the notion that the towers could have come down so quickly and completely as the towers did absent such sabotage.

Not only irrelevant, but flies in the face of studies by organizations not only independent of the federal government (i.e. the Purdue simulation), but also of the US entirely. Look up Architect's posts regarding the studies the Arup group has done.
 
Hold on why do people insist that there would have to be charges thermitic or
not planetd everywhere according to you guys and the OCT all you would have to do is rigg the area of the building where the plane went in about ten floors blow the charges dropping the upper section onto the lower section and then you have yourself a gravity driven crush down type demolition this is why i believe a demolition of the wtc twin towers wouldnt not be so hard after all anyway that deals with issue of idiots running everywhere through the towers planted charges and risking getting busted anyone noticing and
you could always wrap the charges in fire proofing material to stop any premature detonations, and why risk using remote detonators when you could rig the charges with some sort of timer to go off at a set time in precise manner.

And by the way the video does demonstrate that horizontal cuts are possible
with thermite look at the inside of the box column he constructed even the normal thermite
almost cut through it when it exploded, the only problem is you would need thermite with
more of a bang to cut all the way through and that where explosive nanothermite comes into
play a more potent form of thermite as so to say.

See anythings possible.

:D:D:D

How did these devices survive the plane crash? I bet I could break those things with a sledge hammer and a 6 pack of beer.

Since we know that collapse began at the same exact point as the plane crash, how did these devices survive?
 
No timers found you say huh, why would they survive? Why would they not have been pulverised to dust along with the rest of the building contents and materials? Atleast the perps had a way that they could ensure any physical evidence of their wrong doings would be destroyed and not found later on in the mess they generated. I like how some duh bunkers have said if the tower where
destroyed in a CD type fashion there would be detonator cords everywhere just assuming it was an actual explosive controlled demolition but why would they survive? Even probably the detonator cords would have been pulverised into nothing, there where not
even electrical wires found in the wtc rubble, not from the pictures i have seen anyhow.

:D:D:D:boxedin::boxedin::boxedin:

Remnants of det-cord always survives.



Electrical wires?

Like these?

FEMAphoto_WTC-272.jpg


and these?

FEMAphoto_WTC-361.jpg


What were you saying?
 

I'm waiting for some "genius" to start claiming that the bottom picture wasn't at Ground Zero because of the "Puget Sound" FEMA jackets in the picture. You and I know that rescue personnel came from around the country to help with the response (I personally know one from Chicago), but I've never been disappointed by holding low expectations of truthers. In fact, I've far too often been surprised at how often I've given them too much credit. :boggled:
 
I'm waiting for some "genius" to start claiming that the bottom picture wasn't at Ground Zero because of the "Puget Sound" FEMA jackets in the picture. You and I know that rescue personnel came from around the country to help with the response (I personally know one from Chicago), but I've never been disappointed by holding low expectations of truthers. In fact, I've far too often been surprised at how often I've given them too much credit. :boggled:

LOL!!

I know that there were some S&R guys from Miami there. One of them is a very good friend of mine. Him and I spent days on that pile together.

Too much credit! I couldn't agree more.
 
Well I have to congratulate this truther for actually doing something, I do wish though that they'd finish their work before they present it.

I wasn't keen on the number of ... in the ... quotes used in the ...video.

Independant verification of the results would be nice, or at least better documentation of the experiments.

He got a swiss cheese effect which is great. Now he just needs to have it tested to see if it matches the eutectic corrosion on the couple of WTC samples that had a similar appearance.

His bolt burners were nice but lets have a look at some numbers. There's 4 bolts per column and you have access holes/joints on 1/3 of the columns on any 1 level, so that's 336 bolt burners to weaken 1/3 of a floors perimeter columns and 84 igniters (assuming 1 igniter can set off the 4 within a column).You'd probably also want to weaken the top and bottom of any particular panel so that would double your numbers and hitting more than 1/3 of the panels means more again. So we have the remains of potentially thousands of these things in the debris pile clanging around inside the perimeter columns........I wonder why none were found?

So, while this was an interesting experiment for him, it doesn't even begin to form a coherent demolition theory that matches observed features.
 
Not to mention that the steel that was recovered showed signs of a stress fracture, not a cut section like his do.
 
Sulphidation occurs through solid state diffusion and is therefore subject to f,i,ck's (see editing reason) Laws of diffusion. If you understand what these laws are then you would see that Time plays a large factor (along with temperature and concentration gradient across the solid/gas interface) in the rate of diffusion.

There simply is not enough time in 1 hour to get corrosion of the steel seen in those samples let alone a few seconds of burning thermate.

So, how do you explain the holes and corrosion that Jon Cole was able to produce in the steel at 10:38?
 
If it were trivial, it wouldn't have been one of your major debunking points.


And exactly how many of these curious steel fabrications were recovered at ground zero? or did they all just self destruct, The magnet and spring clip holding devices? The shotgun style tubes? The pneumatic activators? The tiered inserts? Or hell even remains of column connections burnt off. You would think one of his perimeter bolt burner fabrications would survive wholly intact within the confines of a tubular steel column.

You know what i see in that video? Truther desperation.
 
If it were trivial, it wouldn't have been one of your major debunking points.

Haha, oh wow.

You do realise, Red, that by definition, "debunking" is not a process of bringing up new hypotheses, but rather a process of refuting existing hypotheses? There is no such thing as a "major debunking point". We can only debunk that which Truthers have already brought up.

In other words, it would never have been a big deal if Truthers had not made it into one.

In other other words: We never had any interest in this point. We were only forced to address it because you idiots wouldn't shut up about it.
 
So, how do you explain the holes and corrosion that Jon Cole was able to produce in the steel at 10:38?

9 years!

9 years of work and what does 9/11 "Truth" have to show for it? A couple of holes in a steel beam! LOL!

9 years!

It took 9/11 Truth longer to produce this one single piece of insignificant evidence than it took Peter Jackson to produce all three "Lord of the Rings" films.

You people truly are pathetic.
 
9 YEARS!

LOL!

You know what? I take back everything I've ever said about the Truth Movement. You people don't deserve to be insulted, ridiculed, or hated. You deserve to be pitied, consoled, and comforted. How bad I would feel if I had wasted 9 years of my life producing nothing!

Any evidence of thermate at WTC? Haha!

You proved thermate could make a little hole in this steel beam! LOL! Any evidence it could have brought down a 110-story skyscraper?

No?

Looks like you've got another 9 years of work to do!

:dl::dl::dl::dl:
 
Most of the responses here... pretty much sum up the collective of my thoughts... let me just end it with that..
 
So, how do you explain the holes and corrosion that Jon Cole was able to produce in the steel at 10:38?


As was said earlier, his holes would need to be tested and compared to those found on samples from the WTC.

(What is it with you people and your insistence that "eyeballing it" is the only analysis one could possibly need? God damn...)
 
As was said earlier, his holes would need to be tested and compared to those found on samples from the WTC.

(What is it with you people and your insistence that "eyeballing it" is the only analysis one could possibly need? God damn...)

My God... it can't be eyeballed to make a proper comparison! That's what these truthers are missing! The WPI studies included micrographs of the grain boundary layers showing the different iron/iron oxide/iron sulfide phases, and without something similar done to this steel, there is no way to tell if the result is a true replication or not!

Jesus... what you're pointing out is exactly what I mean when I curse truthers for engaging in "cargo cult science": That sort of practice just takes the superficial form of experimentation without bothering to aquire any critical understanding of the underlying conceptual issues. Burning holes in the steel is insufficient; that can be done with a frikkin' thermal lance. What's important is seeing if the microstructure studied by Barnett, Biederman, Sisson, Sullivan, and Vander Voort gets replicated.

And if these fools understood the WPI findings, they'd realize that in no way, shape, or form could thermite/thermate have been involved in this. The reaction kinetics to form those attack boundaries Biederman, Barnett, and Sisson noted are way too slow to have been from thermite/*mate, and on top of that, those phases would've been destroyed by the temperatures a thermite/mate reaction reaches anyway. Right there is falsification of the concept simply from applying known principles to what is observed about the original eroded WTC steel!

Cripes...
 
Um, maybe because they were looking at how that could have happened over days and weeks in a hot debris pile? Obviously, as is pointed out, sulfidation could also occur through thermate.

So we then come to Occam's Razor. We know that heat and sulphur were present in the rubble pile. We have no evidence, once the incompetent analysis of Harrit et al is discarded, of thermite in the rubble pile. Therefore, we provisionally conclude that the cause of the effect was the heat and sulphur known to be present. There is still no reason to even consider thermate.

And, of course, we have no evidence that there was any sulphidation of the samples produced in this video.

Dave
 

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