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Bill Maher Punks Jon Stewart Rally

It may be obvious, but it seems to have been offered as evidence to show how extremely right-wing Republicans have become. This hasn't been stated explicitly, but certainly appears to have been strongly implied. And I'll admit, the implication even registered as having some sort of validity to me before I stopped to think about it for a second. So it may not be so blindingly obvious to everyone, given the context.


It's not a semantic game at all. It's something I feel strongly about.
For the record, I am of the opinion that the majority of Republicans and conservative Independents are reasonable moderate folks. So are the majority of the Democrats and Progressives.

The difference is the current leadership of the Repub Party is courting the fringe like vote whores. The leadership of the left is not courting the fringe. The Repub leadership has adopted a dishonest propaganda approach to getting elected and I don't believe the Progressive leadership has taken this approach. Framing is one thing, misleading people by any means that results in votes is quite another.

That is the difference as I see it.
 
Well, duh. The moderates are kind of between sides. He might as well have complained that seen from the side of blue there is no purple on the side of red.

If one understands things only in terms of "this side" and "the other side", one is of course not likely to notice the moderate opinions in between. That's only because to do so one must be at one of the extremes so that one sees everyone else as "the other side".

Yes yes.

But you do get the intention of the phrase, no?
 
Actually Skeptic Ginger DID make the distinction in that post between Legislators and the Political Base. SG made the further distinction that it was the Senate Democrats who tried to appease the Party of No.

I stand correct, she did make some distinctions. However, the Senate Democrats are also not a homogeneous group. It was not just "the party of no" that needed appeasing.

Okay, let's break this down then shall we!?

It's quite true that Class-warfare from the Top-Down is the name of the game. And it's very true that Corporatists have bought both parties--though the Democrats to a lesser degree because there is a contingent of Actual Progressives in the Democratic Party.

Obama raised $150 million more than McCain. And it is possible for Corporatists to hold progressive values on certain issues.

Corporate Capitalism is a Right Wing ideological system of political/economy. The Corporatists stir up their pseudo-populist base with disinformation and bogus Conspiracy Theories (Birther/Secret Socialist Muslim Obama/Mexicans are coming to get us/the UN is coming to get us/Illuminati/Jews etc etc).

The Right Wing Base likes to believe they are Populist, but their Cultural Conservative Views leaves them vulnerable to believing all the False Conspiracy garbage. And their Cultural Conservatism means that their "Populism" only extends to their White Protestant Selves. Gays, Feminists, Environmentalists, African Americans, Hispanics, etc etc need not apply. Hence they are pseudo-populists.

And yes, in the past there have been Moderate Conservatives and Republican Legislators who bucked the trend. But now the party is being purged and the confluence of the Corporate and Cultural Right are circling the Wagons, and spouting "Extremist" rhetoric, backed up with Extremist Violence and threats of violence.

Left on the outside is anyone to the Left of Richard Nixon.

Insofar as many Democratic legislators are beholden to those very same Corporate Interests they are compromised. This includes Centrist "Moderate" Pro-Corporate Democrats like Obama. So, YES, irrational hatred of Obama IS an Extreme Right Position.

Wow. I don't see how you've made the connection at all. You basically said:

Corporate capitalism is right wing -> Conservatives are dumb bigots and will believe anything -> Therefore irrational hatred of Obama is an Extreme Right Position

So if Ralph Nader said Obama was a fascist CIA lapdog who wants to carry out genocide would he be taking an extreme right wing political position?

At home in the US it means, firebombing clinics where abortions are performed, assassinating doctors who perform abortions, posting addresses of Abortion Doctors, Liberal Politicians, and Left Activists on the internet with the intent of fomenting violence against them, Anthrax scares and attcks against Liberal Politicians, committing arson on Islamic centers and Black Churches, threatening "second amendment solutions," curb stomping Left Activists, Right Wing Pundits screaming about how all liberals are the Socialist enemy and using violent rhetoric...and on and on.

How does firebombing abortion clinics and posting the addresses of doctors [edit: billionaires = doctors (fixed)] protect the profits of billionaires? How does committing arson on Islamic centers and Black Churches protect the profits of billionaires? Anthrax scares? Really?

You left out the most obvious one. COINTELPRO was a widespread FBI campaign of violence, intimidation, spying and infiltration of "left wing", civil rights and black separatist activist. It included wiretapping Dr. King, assassinating a Black Panther leader and numerous other nefarious acts. Approved by Democrat John F. Kennedy.

Abroad it means CIA backed Coups against democratically elected leaders, CIA backed Death Squads that target Labour activists, Indigenous Activists, Nuns, illegal wars of aggression against regimes that aren't compliant enough to corporate interests...etc etc.

That's all Political Violence.

Indeed and it's carried out under the watch of Democrats and Republicans alike.

On the "other side" Keith Olbermann is about as left as it gets in Pundit land. But aside from some occasional hyperbole you don't hear Left/liberal pundits fomenting violence.

What makes him so far left? Certain political opinions he holds? Or do you judge how "far left"/"far right" someone is by how angry and hateful they get at the opposing "side"?

So excuse me if I agree with Bill Maher, Keith Olbermann, and Skeptic Ginger that Jon Stewart's Rally for Sanity--on both sides--was an engagement in False Equivocation.

GB

I agree the "equivocation" may be false, once you've already gone ahead divided everyone into two groups labled "left" and "right". I don't agree with the construct of the left/right axis in the first place, however.

When people do bad or stupid things, blame them for it. Don't blame the invented ideological construct you think they fall into.
 
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For the record, I am of the opinion that the majority of Republicans and conservative Independents are reasonable moderate folks. So are the majority of the Democrats and Progressives.

The difference is the current leadership of the Repub Party is courting the fringe like vote whores. The leadership of the left is not courting the fringe. The Repub leadership has adopted a dishonest propaganda approach to getting elected and I don't believe the Progressive leadership has taken this approach. Framing is one thing, misleading people by any means that results in votes is quite another.

That is the difference as I see it.

Politifact pointed out lies in quite a few ads by both McCain and Obama in the 2008 election. There is no law against false advertising when it comes to politics and both Dems and Repubs take advantage.

As for courting the fringe, I really don't care too much what their PR strategies are in comparison to what they actually do. But it seems the nation's political dialogue is much more concerned with what politicians and pundits say than with what politicians and other individuals actually do. Bush's invasion of Iraq is a rare exception. Of course there was little to no debate over whether it might actually not be a good idea until years after it happened.
 
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[...]


EDIT: By the way, I do agree with general thrust of Maher's statement, hyperbole notwithstanding. And Varwoche and Skeptic Ginger make good points regarding False Equivalence.

With regards to this issue of False Equivalence: Yes, of course that is an obvious conclusion (the left pundits made) but I think it is a mistake to believe that Equivalence was the engine in Stewart's Rally. In simple list form, here's what I've concluded. Humbly and my opinion.

1. Being familiar with Jon's style, I expected him to softball it in this format.
2. He was expecting less than half of the end-count turnout. This led him to...
3. ...Scramble and adjust his closing speech to try and add weight.
4. As a result, he set himself up for criticism.
5. Still, the core of the idea was to appeal to the "be the bigger person" that exists in the left and the middle to a greater degree than it does in the right.

Openness and a willingness to truly listen and digest are not the hallmarks of the right. They generally belong to the left and the middle. The error was that he did not take into account the feverish leftish blowhards that are rightfully pissed off for all the pillaging that has occurred over the last decade. That gap was not artfully addressed. That, and only that, was his failure.
 
Reality has a liberal bias seems to fit in response to this view of yours.

The go-to favored quote of libs as uttered by Colbert's character which he himself describes as "self-important, poorly informed, well-intentioned, but an idiot."

If Colbert's character spoofed MOM, i.e. Maddow, Olbermann and Matthews, the liberal commentators ripe for ridicule as recognized by Jon Stewart, would you still be quoting Colbert?
 
With regards to this issue of False Equivalence: Yes, of course that is an obvious conclusion (the left pundits made) but I think it is a mistake to believe that Equivalence was the engine in Stewart's Rally. In simple list form, here's what I've concluded. Humbly and my opinion.

1. Being familiar with Jon's style, I expected him to softball it in this format.
2. He was expecting less than half of the end-count turnout. This led him to...
3. ...Scramble and adjust his closing speech to try and add weight.
4. As a result, he set himself up for criticism.
5. Still, the core of the idea was to appeal to the "be the bigger person" that exists in the left and the middle to a greater degree than it does in the right.

Openness and a willingness to truly listen and digest are not the hallmarks of the right. They generally belong to the left and the middle. The error was that he did not take into account the feverish leftish blowhards that are rightfully pissed off for all the pillaging that has occurred over the last decade. That gap was not artfully addressed. That, and only that, was his failure.

Are you a Viking or a Visigoth?
 
I stand correct, she did make some distinctions. However, the Senate Democrats are also not a homogeneous group. It was not just "the party of no" that needed appeasing.



Obama raised $150 million more than McCain. And it is possible for Corporatists to hold progressive values on certain issues.



Wow. I don't see how you've made the connection at all. You basically said:

Corporate capitalism is right wing -> Conservatives are dumb bigots and will believe anything -> Therefore irrational hatred of Obama is an Extreme Right Position

So if Ralph Nader said Obama was a fascist CIA lapdog who wants to carry out genocide would he be taking an extreme right wing political position?



How does firebombing abortion clinics and posting the addresses of doctors [edit: billionaires = doctors (fixed)] protect the profits of billionaires? How does committing arson on Islamic centers and Black Churches protect the profits of billionaires? Anthrax scares? Really?

You left out the most obvious one. COINTELPRO was a widespread FBI campaign of violence, intimidation, spying and infiltration of "left wing", civil rights and black separatist activist. It included wiretapping Dr. King, assassinating a Black Panther leader and numerous other nefarious acts. Approved by Democrat John F. Kennedy.



Indeed and it's carried out under the watch of Democrats and Republicans alike.



What makes him so far left? Certain political opinions he holds? Or do you judge how "far left"/"far right" someone is by how angry and hateful they get at the opposing "side"?



I agree the "equivocation" may be false, once you've already gone ahead divided everyone into two groups labled "left" and "right". I don't agree with the construct of the left/right axis in the first place, however.

When people do bad or stupid things, blame them for it. Don't blame the invented ideological construct you think they fall into.

You must have missed this part:
There haven't been any Left political groups in the US that advocate ACTUAL violence against people since the Weather Underground--a group that had been infiltrated by COINTELPRO Provocateurs I might add.

Just because you don't accept the definitions of Right and Left doesn't mean that they have no definitions. Capitalism is Right Wing by Definition. Liberal Capitalists may have some liberal and progressive views--but they are not Leftists.

And for the most part you can tell Left and Right apart by the ideologies they espouse. I have already pointed out that not all Conservatives are "Extremists". But they are Right Wing by definition. This includes Cultural Conservatives. Some are more moderate in their ideology, others are more "Extreme"--both in rhetoric and in violent acts.

"Extreme" Cultural Right Wingers are often the ones that carry out the violent acts against Abortion Clinics/Doctors/Gays/Muslims/Mosques/Hispanics...etc (the list is far too long for me to list them all. But it plays into the hands of the Right Wing Billionaires who use the Political Violence as a means to intimidate the Left, and the Liberal and Conservative "moderates" or "centrists." Fomenting Violence also gives them an excuse to push through Draconian "Security" Measures that solidify their grip on State Power and thus their ability to use State Power to protect their interests.

Leftists are those that challenge the Political/Economic System of Capitalism as a whole; they don't just want reform but a total restructuring to a more equitable Political/Economic system. Olbermann is possibly the only mainstream TV regular that actually borders on challenging Capitalism as the Natural Order.

Liberals are concerned with merely reforming some of the worst aspects of Capitalism, but accept Capitalism as the Natural Order of things. (example: George Soros is arguably a Liberal)

Thus Liberals and Leftists make common cause on a number of issues, but when push comes to shove, many (but not all) Liberals will side with the prevailing Economic Order. Some Liberals may become more "radicalized" as they recognize the inherent flaws of Capitalism and actually become Leftists (some moderate Conservatives do too actually--example: Arianna Huffington).

Honestly, I really don't care if you accept the commonly acknowledged definitions of Left and Right and I'm not going to waste a lot of time "educating" you. Those on the Left and the Right and in the fuzzy Middle know who they are.

GB
 
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Politifact pointed out lies in quite a few ads by both McCain and Obama in the 2008 election. There is no law against false advertising when it comes to politics and both Dems and Repubs take advantage.

As for courting the fringe, I really don't care too much what their PR strategies are in comparison to what they actually do. But it seems the nation's political dialogue is much more concerned with what politicians and pundits say than with what politicians and other individuals actually do. Bush's invasion of Iraq is a rare exception. Of course there was little to no debate over whether it might actually not be a good idea until years after it happened.
The news media, trying to maintain an appearance of neutrality, quite often stretched the facts to make a case for many of those supposed dishonest campaign ads. More often than not there was more framing than lying involved. So you'll need to cite the specific lie or it's impossible to make a determination if the issue was framing or lying.

But that doesn't negate my charge here that the Repub Party leadership promoted blatant lies such as the death panel lie.

And I'm concerned with attempts to win elections, not by persuasion but by what one can only call, trying to cheat. Miller, for example (and this is Repubs eating their own), wants to disenfranchise Murkowski voters who made spelling errors. Caging, which the Repub Party leadership was involved in is not about persuasion, it is about cheating to win.
 
I think that there is false equivalence involved in the charge of false equivalence. Nowhere did I hear Jon say that the insanity was equal on both sides, in either numbers or position.

It was not about equivalence, it wasn't about whether your side has more whackjobs than mine, or that mine are better positioned.
It was about them being the too damn vocal minority.

It was about the fact that the reasonable are the majority but the unreasonable get all the airtime. Doesn't matter what percent belong to which side of the fence.

It was about the talking heads on both sides spending too much time on non-stories, rumors and celebrity gossip.

Look at the information any of the networks give you in a 24 hour news cycle; you could get more information in 24 minutes online.

And lets face it, if you want to hold a rally about sanity and reasonableness and have ALL sane and reasonable people feel like they belong there, rubbing in their faces that you think their side is way more screwed up than yours isnt a great way to kick things off.
 
I think that there is false equivalence involved in the charge of false equivalence. Nowhere did I hear Jon say that the insanity was equal on both sides, in either numbers or position.

It was not about equivalence, it wasn't about whether your side has more whackjobs than mine, or that mine are better positioned.
It was about them being the too damn vocal minority.

It was about the fact that the reasonable are the majority but the unreasonable get all the airtime. Doesn't matter what percent belong to which side of the fence.

It was about the talking heads on both sides spending too much time on non-stories, rumors and celebrity gossip.

Look at the information any of the networks give you in a 24 hour news cycle; you could get more information in 24 minutes online.

And lets face it, if you want to hold a rally about sanity and reasonableness and have ALL sane and reasonable people feel like they belong there, rubbing in their faces that you think their side is way more screwed up than yours isnt a great way to kick things off.

You've obviously just watched the Maddow interview with Jon Stewart and bought his argument hook line and sinker.

I'm not buying it. One set of talking heads spreads vitriol, ad hominem, lies, hate, and death threats--backed up by made up "evidence" and Conspiracy Theories (of the kookiest sort--some Conspiracies are actually true). That set of talking heads belongs to Fox "News."

The other set of talking heads sometimes wax hyperbolic, and occasionally supplies ad-hominem, but their points are backed up little things called Facts, and their motivation is to spread the opposite of Hate and Unreasonableness. Their motivations are to point out that the other side has gone completely off the rails. That set of talking heads belongs to MSNBC.

That's a HUGE distinction that Jon Stewart sorta, kinda gets, but not really because he wants to pretend that there is a middle ground between the voices of Hate and Lies and the voices of Reason with a dash of Hyperbole. And apparently that "middle-ground" to him is Sanity.

Never mind that Jon Stewart get's to have his cake and eat it too. He can present his media analysis (which is otherwise top notch), and at the end of the day he can claim that HIS over-the-top rhetoric is just part of his comedy routine.

GB
 
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You've obviously just watched the Maddow interview with Jon Stewart and bought his argument hook line and sinker.

Nope, havent seen it, I dont really watch television. The previous post was the message I took away from watching the rally.

I'm not buying it. One set of talking heads spreads vitriol, ad hominem, lies, hate, and death threats--backed up by made up "evidence" and Conspiracy Theories (of the kookiest sort--some Conspiracies are actually true). That set of talking heads belongs to Fox "News."

The other set of talking heads sometimes wax hyperbolic, and occasionally supplies ad-hominem, but their points are backed up little things called Facts, and their motivation is to spread the opposite of Hate and Unreasonableness. Their motivations are to point out that the other side has gone completely off the rails. That set of talking heads belongs to MSNBC.

That's a HUGE distinction that Jon Stewart sorta, kinda gets, but not really because he wants to pretend that there is a middle ground between the voices of Hate and Lies and the voices of Reason with a dash of Hyperbole. And apparently that "middle-ground" to him is Sanity.

Not 'middle ground' which suggests it is equidistant between two equal extremes. Common ground, uninterested in Birthers or Truthers, Tea Partiers or Code Pink members. Just because you oppose the conspiracy theories of one side doesn't mean that it is your duty to embrace the hyperbole of the other, even if you agree with the deeper point that side is making.

Never mind that Jon Stewart get's to have his cake and eat it too. He can present his media analysis (which is otherwise top notch), and at the end of the day he can claim that HIS over-the-top rhetoric is just part of his comedy routine.

GB

Perhaps that is more the simple truth than a claim.
 
Never mind that Jon Stewart get's to have his cake and eat it too. He can present his media analysis (which is otherwise top notch), and at the end of the day he can claim that HIS over-the-top rhetoric is just part of his comedy routine.

GB

What over-the-top rhetoric would that be? I haven't seen the show for awhile, but I don't recall anything over the top. He's also candid in some of the off-show interviews I've seen of him about his views. I think he's more anti-partisan and anti-crappy-media than anything.
 
You must have missed this part:


Just because you don't accept the definitions of Right and Left doesn't mean that they have no definitions. Capitalism is Right Wing by Definition. Liberal Capitalists may have some liberal and progressive views--but they are not Leftists.

I'm not confident that they have clear definitions. But even if they do, people don't fit neatly into them. I have heard being "in favor of big government" and being "anti government" both described as being "leftist" positions. If a feminist were campaigning against pornography one might say "what a loony leftist". If an Evangelical Christian were leading the same campaign one might say "what a right wing nut". Incidentally, Noam Chomsky, who describes himself as "conservative", but is typically described by others as an "extreme leftist", is against porn.

It does make the world seem less confusing to try to fit everything into categories, so I understand why people do it. But, definitions aside, I think this "left/right" construct we've created causes people lose sight of solving actual problems. It causes them to demonize the "other side" unreasonably. It causes them to defend those on their own "side" unreasonably. And it causes them to be resistant to facts and good ideas that don't fit within their ideology. None of this is far fetched with some basic observation of human behavior. Psychology confirms some of these types of effects through scientific study.
 
I'm not confident that they have clear definitions. But even if they do, people don't fit neatly into them. I have heard being "in favor of big government" and being "anti government" both described as being "leftist" positions. If a feminist were campaigning against pornography one might say "what a loony leftist". If an Evangelical Christian were leading the same campaign one might say "what a right wing nut". Incidentally, Noam Chomsky, who describes himself as "conservative", but is typically described by others as an "extreme leftist", is against porn.

It does make the world seem less confusing to try to fit everything into categories, so I understand why people do it. But, definitions aside, I think this "left/right" construct we've created causes people lose sight of solving actual problems. It causes them to demonize the "other side" unreasonably. It causes them to defend those on their own "side" unreasonably. And it causes them to be resistant to facts and good ideas that don't fit within their ideology. None of this is far fetched with some basic observation of human behavior. Psychology confirms some of these types of effects through scientific study.

The last time I checked, Noam Chomsky described himself as an Anarchist. I actually have a number of his books.

Look, I agree in principle, but the reality is that most people that actually bother to self identify, or actually bother to make the effort to have political/economic and or theological views and express them can be identified by the ideologies they espouse.

It's true that there are a lot of people (possibly the majority, depending on what country they live in) who don't really have a clue what they really believe. These folk may identify as "moderate" "centrist" "independent" or even generally "liberal" or "conservative" without having any clear idea what the political language means. More often than not, these people will just go along with the general background assumptions that frame the dialogue in the mainstream media.

The mainstream worldview presented in US Media tends to be mostly Center/Right (MSNBC notwithstanding). So many of those people, who haven't given a lot of thought to what their ACTUAL interests are, just react based on the stuff they watch or listen to the most.

The Corporatists have spent over a century refining propaganda techniques based originally on the theories of Edward Bernays, Freud's nephew. Nowadays they just call it PR. But it amounts to the same thing--Manufactured Consent--a way to exert a great deal of influence on the way people think about things. If you know Noam Chomsky's work you should have a good idea of what I'm talking about.

So a lot of people just buy into the Consumerist worldview presented to them.

Cultural Conservatives (generally those brought up in a heavily religious background) might have some populist views. But Corporate sponsored groups like the John Birch Society or the Tea Party promulgate a special kind of Conspiracy laden Propaganda designed to specifically steer them into a fear based ideology that is actually antagonistic to what these peoples' own interests are. This is how the Corporate Right co-opts the Religious Right.

Ayn Rand style Libertarian Corporate PR is designed specifically to target the majority of people that just accept the Consumerist worldview presented to them. And as I said, this can include a lot of people who are fuzzy on ideological definitions and self describe as liberal to conservative. Though this has also filtered into the belief systems of some who consider themselves Culturally Conservative.

The people the Corporate Right have the hardest time propagandizing to are those who identify as Anarcho-Syndicalists, Socialists, and a fair number of Progressives.

Ultimately the name of the game is Class Warfare, the Rich against everyone else. And the Wealthy will use whatever means necessary to protect their interests. But again, by definition the Wealthy Owning Classes are generally considered Right Wing--though this doesn't mean that they all subscribe to Culturally Conservative views.

This is why the usual model that people have of Left vs Right is overly simplistic; it has to be considered in the context of Wealthy Elitists vs Populists.

I know that just taking some of my previous posts at face value may give the impression that I am coming from the overly simplistic "Left/Right" view promulgated in our media, but nothing could be further from the truth.

I understand very well the complexities of political ideologies, and that people don't always fit into neat little boxes.

I might call myself a Democratic or Libertarian Socialist or a Progressive or a Libertarian Populist, but when I've had face to face conversations with "Right Wingers" who also consider themselves "Populist" I've found that there is a certain amount of common ground--particularly in terms of identifying the excessive measure of control Bankers and Corporations have over ostensibly democratic institutions of the State. But where the Rubber hits the Road for me, is when Right Wing Populists start spouting Bircher/Birther/Racist/Anti-Gay etc rhetoric.

GB
 
The other set of talking heads sometimes wax hyperbolic, and occasionally supplies ad-hominem, but their points are backed up little things called Facts, and their motivation is to spread the opposite of Hate and Unreasonableness. Their motivations are to point out that the other side has gone completely off the rails. That set of talking heads belongs to MSNBC.
You mean the network that has people openly advocating voter fraud??? Also, you failed your skeptic test. Waxing hyperbolic and supplying ad-hominem generally renders an argument null and void.
 
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You mean the network that has people openly advocating voter fraud??? Also, you failed your skeptic test. Waxing hyperbolic and supplying ad-hominem generally renders an argument null and void.

Not if the Hyperbole and Ad Hominem are based on facts.

GB
 
You mean the network that has people openly advocating voter fraud??? Also, you failed your skeptic test. Waxing hyperbolic and supplying ad-hominem generally renders an argument null and void.

I forgot to ask you: Who on MSNBC is openly advocating voter fraud?

Maybe you were engaging in hyperbole based on lies! ;)

GB
 

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