"Not Ever" - A Campaign Against Blaming Rape Victims

[Big Boss]

re: bolding. I'm afraid you're going to have to show where anyone in this thread was justifying rape in this day and age in any context.

You're right, that should have read "rationalizations" in the context of this thread (I have seen justifications for it though). But that is precisely what is going on in here.

 

[Skeptic]

"It's natural" or "I was born that way" seems to be a meaningless statement that somehow makes some things legitimate while having no effect on others. E.g., "I was born this way" somehow makes homosexuality OK but not pedophilia, or "we were evolved to do this" makes infidelity less morally blameable but not rape.

But surely if homosexuality is morally neutral, it is so because it is a free act that hurts nobody, unlike pedophilia, not because homosexuals were so born. If infidelity is seen as something that shouldn't be blamed, it's because people think it is a "victimless crime", (though I would disagree), is non-violent, etc., while rape isn't -- not because infidelity might have spread in the population for genetic reasons hundreds of thousand or more years ago.

If "we evolved to do this" or "I was born this way" was something that made action X less (or not at all) morally bad, it should apply across the board. It doesn't, since all those two statements mean is "I think behavior X, which many people consider blameworthy, actually is OK". It might be, but in that case whether or not we were born or evolved to want to do X is simply irrelevant to the question.

 

[3point14]

<SNIP>
And I'm actually not the one conflating explanations with excuses at all. The explanation is that men choose to rape women. The ones who ultimately make the bad choices are the rapists. And there is no excuse for it.

I assume that you would still advise young ladies not to indulge in behaviour that real life examples have been shown can lead to them being raped? It's just that you come across a little like you do, and I'm sure that's an incorrect impression that I've managed to pick up.

 

[bookitty]

So, she didn't rape me?

If you had been sober, would you have consented to the sex? Did your girlfriend have any reason to think that you might not want to have sex? Did she go ahead with it anyway? Did you at any time indicate in any way that you did not want sex?

 

[Big Boss]

I assume that you would still advise young ladies not to indulge in behaviour that real life examples have been shown can lead to them being raped? It's just that you come across a little like you do, and I'm sure that's an incorrect impression that I've managed to pick up.

Just for a moment, pretend there's a rape victim reading this thread.

If she sees advice such as "don't get really drunk around groups of men" at parties, and she was the victim of rape at a party that involved the excessive consumption of alcohol, how do you think she's going to perceive it? And how do you think someone with her experiences should be expected to perceive it? Honest question.

 

[bookitty]

I assume that you would still advise young ladies not to indulge in behaviour that real life examples have been shown can lead to them being raped? It's just that you come across a little like you do, and I'm sure that's an incorrect impression that I've managed to pick up.

Lets say there's a college girl who goes to parties and gets drunk. She's done this a number of times without being raped. Then at one party she gets raped. What is the difference between the previous parties and that one? Her behavior was the same. The only difference is that there was a guy there who decided to rape her.

 

[3point14]

Just for a moment, pretend there's a rape victim reading this thread.

If she sees advice such as "don't get really drunk around groups of men" at parties, and she was the victim of rape at a party that involved the excessive consumption of alcohol, how do you think she's going to perceive it? And how do you think someone with her experiences should be expected to perceive it? Honest question.

I don't know - I think it would be tremendously difficult to empathise with a rape victim, and I think it would probably be belittling for any for me to even try, but I do see your point.

But the advice is still wise, I would absolutely council any lady not to get blind drunk alone and with a group of men she's never met before. It's an extreme situation, and I'm genuinely very sympathetic with the victims of any crime, but that's not going to stop me (sorry) telling those women that I love to keep their head up, eyes open, walk on the light streets, keep their keys handy and not to put themselves in situations where they become excessively vulnerable. Hell, that just applies to anyone, but it seems there can be consequences of a different kind if one is female.

Do you think the same applies to the victim of a knife attack seeing the same advice concerning walking through unsafe neighbourhoods? Or not waving your wallet about?



ETA: What I'm trying to say is that I'm prepared to upset the victims of rape in an effort to reduce the number of rape victims.

 

[TraneWreck]

I think we should do the opposite. In ancient Japan where, before duly punishing the criminal, the court would appoint an orderly to cane the especially stupid and careless victims, as a punishment for their stupidity. Had this been the law today, then in some rape cases -- and many scam cases -- the court would have quite a lot of work to do.

So, you don't think the raping was enough punishment in instances where victims make poor choices?

 

[bookitty]

I don't know - I think it would be tremendously difficult to empathise with a rape victim, and I think it would probably be belittling for any for me to even try, but I do see your point.

But the advice is still wise, I would absolutely council any lady not to get blind drunk alone and with a group of men she's never met before. It's an extreme situation, and I'm genuinely very sympathetic with the victims of any crime, but that's not going to stop me (sorry) telling those women that I love to keep their head up, eyes open, walk on the light streets, keep their keys handy and not to put themselves in situations where they become excessively vulnerable. Hell, that just applies to anyone, but it seems there can be consequences of a different kind if one is female.

Do you think the same applies to the victim of a knife attack seeing the same advice concerning walking through unsafe neighbourhoods? Or not waving your wallet about?

For the record, every woman over the age of 10 already knows all these things. The list gets longer depending on the topic, too. Basically anything can lead to rape if a woman isn't careful. If a rape doesn't happen in her home, by a stranger, after she engaged a dead-bolt, pulled the shades and put on a really ugly flannel nightie, then she did something wrong. And what was she doing living alone anyway?

 

[Skeptic]

Lets say there's a college girl who goes to parties and gets drunk. She's done this a number of times without being raped. Then at one party she gets raped. What is the difference between the previous parties and that one? Her behavior was the same. The only difference is that there was a guy there who decided to rape her.

True, true. But it still isn't a good idea to get smashed in a party to the point of losing all control and not remembering anything you did.

 

[Skeptic]

So, you don't think the raping was enough punishment in instances where victims make poor choices?

Oh, don't be an ass. I explicitly noted "scam victims" as well precisely to note that I'm not in reality for caning rape victims any more than I'm in favor of caning scam victims. I also posted the origin of my story. The point was not to cane anyone but to simply note that some behavior is stupid.

 

[bookitty]

I don't know - I think it would be tremendously difficult to empathise with a rape victim, and I think it would probably be belittling for any for me to even try, but I do see your point.

This may be part of the problem. A huge percentage of men do not rape. Nor can they empathize with being raped. Because they can not imagine being either the attacker or the victim, they place the blame equally. A rapist must have a reason. A victim must have a flaw.

 

[3point14]

This may be part of the problem. A huge percentage of men do not rape. Nor can they empathize with being raped. Because they can not imagine being either the attacker or the victim, they place the blame equally. A rapist must have a reason. A victim must have a flaw.

How many times do I have to say that I assign no blame of any nature whatsoever to the victim?

 

[bookitty]

True, true. But it still isn't a good idea to get smashed in a party to the point of losing all control and not remembering anything you did.

Of course. It's bad for anyone. But it does not mean that you deserve to be raped.

 

[3point14]

For the record, every woman over the age of 10 already knows all these things. The list gets longer depending on the topic, too. Basically anything can lead to rape if a woman isn't careful. If a rape doesn't happen in her home, by a stranger, after she engaged a dead-bolt, pulled the shades and put on a really ugly flannel nightie, then she did something wrong. And what was she doing living alone anyway?

But you accept that there are some actions that will wildly increase the chances of being a victim of any crime, and some actions that will wildly increase the chances of a woman being raped.

I would like to live in a perfect world, but I still lock my door.

 

[bookitty]

How many times do I have to say that I assign no blame of any nature whatsoever to the victim?

BUT if she is raped at a party while drunk, she should realize that is a potential consequence of her action.

 

[3point14]

BUT if she is raped at a party while drunk, she should realize that is a potential consequence of her action.

To a degree, yes, a consequence of her action. Just as me being run over while crossing the road was a consequence of me being on the wrong pedestrian crossing at the wrong time with the wrong driver coming towards me. Not at all my fault, but a consequence of my choice to cross the road then and there. The fact remains that if she hadn't been there it would not have happened. It happened as a consequence of her being there.

It was not in any way shape or form her fault. Not at all, never in this life or the non-existent next. It is the fault of and the blame lies unequivocally and indisputably with the person or persons committing the crime, but the event happened as a consequence of the actions of all involved.

 

[Big Boss]

I don't know - I think it would be tremendously difficult to empathise with a rape victim, and I think it would probably be belittling for any for me to even try, but I do see your point.

For the record, it's never belittling to try to empathize with a rape victim, or anyone's experiences for that matter. It's belittling when, in the face of someone who had those experiences, that you'd claim to have all the answers or something like that. You may never completely understand the experiences of another person—and claiming you do is belittling—but it's not irrational or belittling to genuinely try.

Do you think the same applies to the victim of a knife attack seeing the same advice concerning walking through unsafe neighbourhoods? Or not waving your wallet about?

So as I've stated earlier, we frame these issues in the context of what potential victims should not do around other human beings—in accordance with the just-world phenomenon—and we've become pretty used to it in the context of things like people getting robbed. But with things like rape and other violent assaults that have great potential to leave the victims scarred and obsessively fixated on what they could have done to prevent the scenario, the just-world phenomenon has the potential to be pretty destructive. We frame these issues in the context of what potential victims should avoid, but really, it's a misleading framing regardless of the crime because waving your wallet around did not MAKE somebody rob you, nor do you really deserve to be robbed for waving your wallet around. I should also point out that it's disingenuous to compare waving your wallet around to simply being an inebriated woman.

 

[3point14]

For the record, it's never belittling to try to empathize with a rape victim, or anyone's experiences for that matter. It's only belittling when, in the face of someone who had those experiences, that you'd claim to have all the answers or something like that. You may never completely understand the experiences of another person—and claiming you do is probably belittling—but it's not irrational or belittling to try.



So as I've stated earlier, we frame these issues in the context of what potential victims should not do around other human beings—in accordance with the just-world phenomenon—and we've become pretty used to it in the context of things like people getting robbed. But with things like rape and other violent assaults that have great potential to leave the victims scarred and obsessively fixated on what they could have done to prevent the scenario, the just-world phenomenon has the potential to be pretty destructive. We frame these issues in the context of what potential victims should avoid, but really, it's a misleading framing regardless of the crime because waving your wallet around did not MAKE somebody rob you. I should also point out that it's disingenuous to compare waving your wallet around to simply being an inebriated woman; waving your wallet around implies advertising yourself to potential perpetrators (is that what the person in your scenario is doing)? A woman isn't advertising consent if she dresses promiscuously, drinks, etc.

I really do see your point, and yes, the wallet waving is not in any way equivalent to merely getting having a drink or two.

I do however think that there are certain circumstances that no-one should ever place themselves in because those circumstances make it more likely that you will be a victim of crime, be it assault, robbery or rape. I believe that there are things one can do to reduce the risk of being a victim of crime and things that a lady can do to reduce the risk of being raped. No-one should have to, in an ideal world, but we all do.

And I think I should probably stress that the list of things I think are unwise does not contain:

Having a drink
Flirting
Wearing provocative clothing
Deciding that you want to stop at kissing.


The things I'm thinking of are more:

Do not leave your drink unattended
Don't walk through the bad neighbourhoods
Don't use an unlicensed cab
Don't get passing out drunk alone and surrounded by men you've never met.


I freely admit that the above should be things that any lady should be free to do without fear of being accosted, but sadly that's not the case.

 

[TraneWreck]

Oh, don't be an ass. I explicitly noted "scam victims" as well precisely to note that I'm not in reality for caning rape victims any more than I'm in favor of caning scam victims. I also posted the origin of my story. The point was not to cane anyone but to simply note that some behavior is stupid.

Haha, fair enough.

Although, if we're drawing solutions from ancient Japan, one of the booming economic activities of their Feudal period was the purchase and transportation of human feces from the cities to the rice patties for use as fertilizers.

Perhaps they had the panacea for our economic ills as well.