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The Great Thermate Debate

RedIbis

Philosopher
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Messages
6,899
Thermate, not thermite, is used here to cut through a steel beam. If the complaint is that all of this has been discussed before, skip to 5:20 for the experiment.

He goes through a number of configurations to refute the claim that thermitic material wouldn't cut horizontally, wouldn't melt steel and would take massive amounts to do any real damage.

http://911blogger.com/news/2010-11-10/911-experiments-great-thermate-debate#comment-241377

So what's wrong with the experiment?

Also, interesting comments from Jones, Szamboti, and Kevin Ryan in the comments after the video.
 
So what's wrong with the experiment?

Apart from the fact that it doesn't demonstrate the use of thermite to cut a vertical I-beam column, you mean?

It does at least demonstrate that thermite can, when applied in a very carefully controlled manner to a column that's already been significantly weakened by drilling a hole through it, make the edges of that hole sharper. Congratulations; that's one very minor claim of the truth movement that now has a very small amount of experimental evidence to back it up.

There is still no coherent hypothesis based on the use of thermite to propagate collapse, only the vague beginnings of a hypothesis based on the use of thermite to initiate collapse, no credible evidence of the presence of thermite, and no sensible suggestion as to why thermite - or even the collapse of the towers - was necessary to the purpose of any supposed conspiracy, so none of this will go anywhere. But the average IQ of the truth movement has commenced its long, arduous journey towards the dizzy heights of double figures.

Dave
 
Thermate, not thermite, is used here to cut through a steel beam. If the complaint is that all of this has been discussed before, skip to 5:20 for the experiment.

He goes through a number of configurations to refute the claim that thermitic material wouldn't cut horizontally, wouldn't melt steel and would take massive amounts to do any real damage.

http://911blogger.com/news/2010-11-10/911-experiments-great-thermate-debate#comment-241377

So what's wrong with the experiment?

Also, interesting comments from Jones, Szamboti, and Kevin Ryan in the comments after the video.

I bet that was fun!
how does he think they gained access to all those hundreds of bolt tightening holes? Why were not steel thermite devices found in the holes and no columns found with any damage similar to what he shows, how did they fuse the devices, why were no fuse components found? how did they get the aircraft to crash into exactly the right place as they had wired up or do you imagine they wired the entire building?

and finally, why bother with thermite when aircraft impact and fire will do the same thing?


Oh and how do we know he didn't just fake that video :)
 
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I see TS showed up in the comments:

As this video demonstrates, methods for the structural degradation necessary to produce these phenomena are explainable by the iron microspheres and active thermitic material found in the dust, as well as the molten iron and steel observed pouring out of the northeast corner of WTC 2 just prior to its collapse.

In light of the fact that no steel framed high rise buildings had ever collapsed due to fire, the inexcusable behavior in saving less than 0.5% of the steel from the towers and none from WTC 7 (except for the one small piece in the WPI examination) for use in a comprehensive investigation, is Prima Facie evidence of a cover-up and obstruction of justice.


No mention of the jolt.
 
Thermate, not thermite, is used here to cut through a steel beam. If the complaint is that all of this has been discussed before, skip to 5:20 for the experiment.

He goes through a number of configurations to refute the claim that thermitic material wouldn't cut horizontally, wouldn't melt steel and would take massive amounts to do any real damage.

http://911blogger.com/news/2010-11-10/911-experiments-great-thermate-debate#comment-241377

So what's wrong with the experiment?

Also, interesting comments from Jones, Szamboti, and Kevin Ryan in the comments after the video.

In every instance the thermite was placed directly against the steel. How did the do that in the towers?
 
Apart from the fact that it doesn't demonstrate the use of thermite to cut a vertical I-beam column, you mean?

It does at least demonstrate that thermite can, when applied in a very carefully controlled manner to a column that's already been significantly weakened by drilling a hole through it, make the edges of that hole sharper. Congratulations; that's one very minor claim of the truth movement that now has a very small amount of experimental evidence to back it up.

There is still no coherent hypothesis based on the use of thermite to propagate collapse, only the vague beginnings of a hypothesis based on the use of thermite to initiate collapse, no credible evidence of the presence of thermite, and no sensible suggestion as to why thermite - or even the collapse of the towers - was necessary to the purpose of any supposed conspiracy, so none of this will go anywhere. But the average IQ of the truth movement has commenced its long, arduous journey towards the dizzy heights of double figures.

Dave

Well, thank god Red told us to scan ahead to five minutes.

And that good old boy looked like he was having a hell of a lot of fun!

I'll have to watch the whole thing when I'm not at "work."

Anyway, this guy is my new favorite truther in the whole wide world!
 
Apart from the fact that it doesn't demonstrate the use of thermite to cut a vertical I-beam column, you mean?

It does at least demonstrate that thermite can, when applied in a very carefully controlled manner to a column that's already been significantly weakened by drilling a hole through it, make the edges of that hole sharper. Congratulations; that's one very minor claim of the truth movement that now has a very small amount of experimental evidence to back it up.

There is still no coherent hypothesis based on the use of thermite to propagate collapse, only the vague beginnings of a hypothesis based on the use of thermite to initiate collapse, no credible evidence of the presence of thermite, and no sensible suggestion as to why thermite - or even the collapse of the towers - was necessary to the purpose of any supposed conspiracy, so none of this will go anywhere. But the average IQ of the truth movement has commenced its long, arduous journey towards the dizzy heights of double figures.

Dave

Why are you lying, Dave? You have the most basic possible detail completely incorrect. In fact, it's at the center of this demonstration, reiterated right from the start.

It could just be a simple error, but for someone so singlemindedly obsessed with lying, I'm just not going to grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're doing it purposefully, especially since your tone is often insulting.
 
Why are you lying, Dave? You have the most basic possible detail completely incorrect. In fact, it's at the center of this demonstration, reiterated right from the start.

I may have missed it among the filler material that makes it rather too tedious to watch. Can you give me a time stamp for the bit where he demonstrates making a horizontal cut through a vertical column?

Dave

ETA: I see he managed to melt a bit out of the side of one, and make a vertical cut down the middle of one. Neither of these constitutes cutting the column.
 
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RedIbis;6542350]Why are you lying, Dave?

Where does he lie? the guy makes some holes in a column but does not cut through any. he would need to reduce strength by at least 50% to get one to fail and we see no proof that he managed that.


by the way did you spot the use of the aircrafts impact explosion testimony on the 81st floor to be supposedly a thermite explosion which would surely have been much later when the building actually fell? Now why would he do that.......
 
bump

how does he think they gained access to all those hundreds of bolt tightening holes? Why were not steel thermite devices found in the holes and no columns found with any damage similar to what he shows, how did they fuse the devices, why were no fuse components found? how did they get the aircraft to crash into exactly the right place as they had wired up or do you imagine they wired the entire building?

and finally, why bother with thermite when aircraft impact and fire will do the same thing?


Oh and how do we know he didn't just fake that video
 
bump

how does he think they gained access to all those hundreds of bolt tightening holes? Why were not steel thermite devices found in the holes and no columns found with any damage similar to what he shows, how did they fuse the devices, why were no fuse components found? how did they get the aircraft to crash into exactly the right place as they had wired up or do you imagine they wired the entire building?

and finally, why bother with thermite when aircraft impact and fire will do the same thing?


Oh and how do we know he didn't just fake that video

I had the same thought. Why doesn't the termite burn op the containers?
 
What about the massive hole that he made in the steel beam it looks
very similar in appearance to the steel that was found from the wtc with the swiss cheese type apearance why dont you guys try explaining that?

Let me guess your just going to deny that it looks similar it really is a waste of
time posting here, JREFS will never admit to anything.
 
LOL

Once again truthers say they used thermate because its quiet but at the same time will claim loud explosives were going off.

And again, he says we see molten steel before the collapse. Uh, where do we see that? One place and we have no reason to suppose its steel. Of course Jones claims it has to be steel because only steel is that colour when molten according to him, which is of course nonsense.

Also, as others have said, why do we have no evidence of steel that looks that way and why no remains of any devices? Jones and co claim it was PAINTED ON the steel and that when it dries it becomes a HIGH EXPLOSIVE. Why doesnt he do THAT experiment? And btw, if it becomes a high explosive, again that means its LOUD, not quiet.

Why Red do you support such idiots?
 
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Look, RedIbis, I suppose this warrants some kind of serious answer. For once, a truther has actually started taking steps along the road to serious respectability, and has demonstrated one very small thing that I thought was impossible. It's a very small step on a very long road, but at the end of that road, if indeed it leads in the right direction - which I'm fairly certain it doesn't - there might, perhaps, be the initial destination for the truth movement, which is to prove that enough elements of an alternative 9/11 theory are at least physically possible that such a theory won't instantly be rejected on grounds of utter absurdity.

If I'm worng, and it's possible to prove at least enough simple elements to construct a vaguely plausible hypothesis, there will then be another lengthy road ahead of the truth movement, which is to construct that hypothesis. The hypothesis will need to account for all the evidence that is already accounted for by the conventional understanding of 9/11; if it fails to account for any of it, it will still not be taken seriously, because it will be, by definition, an inferior explanation. And in order even to travel this road, truthers will have to revise their understanding of what constitutes evidence, and how to assess its validity. Discarding evidence because it disagrees with the hypothesis will no longer be acceptable; nor will misrepresentation of evidence, or fabrication of evidence, or presenting fantasy as evidence.

And if, in the end, this is finally achieved, and an alternative hypothesis is developed which is as fully detailed and explains the evidence at least as well as the conventional understanding, then there will still be the final hurdle to clear, of finding some reason to reject a simple hypothesis that explains all the known evidence. Because, whatever the delusions of the truth movement, the events of 9/11 are very fully understood, and the anomalies claimed by truthers are simply not real.

So, in truth, there is no Great Thermite Debate. All that there is, is a collection of contradictory and half-formed conjectures that fail to explain events that have already been explained. And all this video does is demonstrate that one small aspect of one such conjecture -specifically, that thermite could have caused superficially similar erosion to steel beams to that seen on a few samples from WTC7 - is not a physical impossibility.

So, as I'm sure you'll be glad to hear, I'm happy to abandon the claim that thermite could not have caused the sharp edges seen in the steel samples recovered from WTC7. If a victory that small means so much to you that you see it as a major triumph, then I'm very sorry for you.

Dave
 
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LOL

Once again truthers say they used thermate because its quiet but at the same time will claim loud explosives were going off.

Well, it makes it quieter, but it's also brighter than the freaken' sun in daylight - bright enough to give somebody looking directly at it with no protection at minimum temporary blindness. It's probably worse than explosives in its own way.
 

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