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Forgiven for what, eactly?

SumDood said:
Could Truman have lived his entire life without running for president? Yes or no?
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He could have, if god chose to create the universe in such a way as to contain that event. If god instead chose to create the universe in such a way that Truman would run for president then he does that. God, being outside of traditional time, makes this and all other choices in a single go. Additionally, even were that not the case, since god is powerful enough to create the universe exactly as he sees fit and knows all the details included in that, god is responsible for all actions.

So there has only been one choice made in the history of the universe, and that was at the moment of creation. That seems to make it clear - god has free will, and all in this universe is a single exercise of that will.
 
What I still don't understand is that even if AvalonXQ is right in his premise that god created the universe, created free will and his omnipotence/omiscience do not constrain said free will, why it is then considered moral and or good to punish your creations for excersizing this gift.
If human history has shown us anything is that two totally different ways of living your life can still both be right, even though the persons living those lives disagree. Given free will we are capable of disagreeing with god's plan and still be right, and therefore need not be punished for doing so.
Yet your religion is based upon the fact that only by omitting your free will and refusing to doubt god will reward you.
Do you see how that to a non-christian sounds like the worst kind of abusive parent ever?
 
SOdhner said:
He could have, if god chose to create the universe in such a way as to contain that event. If god instead chose to create the universe in such a way that Truman would run for president then he does that.
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I don't follow that logic. It sounds like this:

Premise: I am wearing a black shirt.

Could it be possible that I am wearing a white shirt?

Yes, it is possible that I am wearing a white shirt if my shirt was white instead of black.
 
AvalonXQ said:
God could have been wrong. And yet, God wasn't wrong -- Truman did in fact run for President.
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I think you're getting confused. While this uses an actual event, it is still essentially a hypothetical.

So when you say god could have been wrong, then you are saying this chain of events is valid:

1. God knows truman will run for president.
2. Truman does not ever run for president.

And I don't think that's what you are trying to say.
 
SOdhner said:
I think you're getting confused. While this uses an actual event, it is still essentially a hypothetical.

So when you say god could have been wrong, then you are saying this chain of events is valid:

1. God knows truman will run for president.
2. Truman does not ever run for president.

And I don't think that's what you are saying.
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No, I guess it's not. The problem is that the causality is backwards. The reason that God knows that Truman will run for president, is because Truman will choose to run for president -- not the other way around.
 
AvalonXQ said:
The problem is that the causality is backwards. The reason that God knows that Truman will run for president, is because Truman will choose to run for president -- not the other way around.
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Right.

Here's the thing... there are some who require free will of a sort that simply doesn't exist (completely removed from causality). This is a problem with or without god, but the presence of an omnipotent being is another way of displaying the fact that our actions are, at a core level, just the result of the existing physical laws and whatever came before. Stimulus and response.

In fact it's still not any more satisfying with the addition of true random when you think about it, but that's another conversation.

Then there are others that think of free will as a property within that already limited framework, and chose to define it as I have - pretty much in the same way that you define responsibility. In that case it can exist just fine along omniscience, but you still would have to address the fact that it doesn't exist for individual people if some other being made all those choices for them already by way of creating the universe in the specific way that he did.
 
AvalonXQ said:
God could have been wrong. And yet, God wasn't wrong -- Truman did in fact run for President.
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So how do you define omniscience?

I would have thought that by definition an omniscient being could not be wrong.

Do either of the terms "free will" or "omniscience" have any actual meaning? Or are they just terms that are infinitely malleable according to what you want to be true?
 
SumDood said:
When you say "all future choice being made instantly (or more accurately: being determined)" doesn't that support my position? If it was determined that Truman would run for president in the instant "time unfolded", isn't it impossible for him to NOT run for president?
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I don't think so. When I say the future was decided at that moment, I mean that in the sense that cause logically followed from effect, right from the beginning until the end, so that the future of the universe can be derived right back to the beginning of the universe (actually not sure if this is true, chance might play a considerable role). However, amongst those many causes that determine the future, there is still such factors as Truman's own preferences, his own "will". In other words, he still made his own choice, even though it was decided right at the very beginning of the universe what that choice was going to be.

I hope that makes it any clearer, though I admit it doesn't seem that clear even to me. :p
 
AvalonXQ said:
God's knowledge of the future said nothing about how you had to act; only how you would act. God predicted the outcome of your choice; he did not take away that choice.
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So I have a choice but every single time I choose I will choose exactly what god knew I was going to choose.
 
Sophronius said:
See, these are the sound-bite responses I was talking about.

You have displayed absolutely zero interest in responding to any of the arguments that have been given by me and others. All you do is repeat the same bloody claim over and over again. I'm not going to bother arguing this with you.
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I'll frame my posts the way i want to and you're free to do the same although I think it would be better if you actually responded to content rather than form.
 
AvalonXQ said:
God could have been wrong. And yet, God wasn't wrong -- Truman did in fact run for President.
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If god "could" be wrong then he isn't all knowing which makes the first premise false and creates a contradiction.
 
Sophronius said:
I don't think so. When I say the future was decided at that moment, I mean that in the sense that cause logically followed from effect, right from the beginning until the end, so that the future of the universe can be derived right back to the beginning of the universe (actually not sure if this is true, chance might play a considerable role). However, amongst those many causes that determine the future, there is still such factors as Truman's own preferences, his own "will". In other words, he still made his own choice, even though it was decided right at the very beginning of the universe what that choice was going to be.

I hope that makes it any clearer, though I admit it doesn't seem that clear even to me. :p
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It is clear . . . clearly wrong! :D

If the future is set then what Truman wants has no bearing. If Truman's wants have a bearing on the future, then the future is not set.
 
AvalonXQ said:
God predicted the outcome of your choice; he did not take away that choice.
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It's not so much that God predicted it as much as He observes it. It is.

This is only an issue because people are hung up on time.

Time is a relative physical property. See Einstein.

What we see, from within time, is past, present and future.

From outside the limitations of the physical dimension, it can all be seen as one contiguous whole. It is.

Likewise God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
 
AvalonXQ said:
No, I guess it's not. The problem is that the causality is backwards. The reason that God knows that Truman will run for president, is because Truman will choose to run for president -- not the other way around.
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First of all, causality as we know it does not work that way.
Secondly, you apparently would agree that all knowledge of what everyone will ever do is obtainable by God.
The reason God can do this must be that it is somehow predictable.
If it is somehow predictable, the outcome of any choice cannot be unpredictable, therefore the capacity to do anything unpredictable does not exist.

Thirdly, none of this changes anything about the fact that I apparently have to ask forgiveness for things I do wrong, even though God already knew before I was born that I would offend him, as he knew that Adam and Eve would offend him when he created them.
He made humans in the full knowledge that they would break the rules he set for them, and plans to torture them eternally for it, unless they ask for forgiveness for what He knew they would do already.

You do not see a problem with this?
 
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154 said:
It's not so much that God predicted it as much as He observes it. It is.

This is only an issue because people are hung up on time.

Time is a relative physical property. See Einstein.

What we see, from within time, is past, present and future.

From outside the limitations of the physical dimension, it can all be seen as one contiguous whole. It is.

Likewise God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."
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The problem with this from my perspective is that your God punishes people for doing what He already knows they will do when He creates them.

He makes it impossible for us to live by His rules and then punishes us for not doing the impossible.

Then we are supposed to beg for forgiveness for our very existence.

I can't worship a God like that.

I can't even believe in a God like that.

If God exists, he knows I can't believe the stories in the bible. He also knows that if I say otherwise, I would be lieing.

Would God punish me for being honest? According to your theology, He would.
 
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