Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[stilicho]

Could someone here please elaborate on what it is we're supposed to learn from this Mount Vernon murder case involving a suspect by the name Spader? Stilicho and Fuji over on PMF seem to think that the similarities to this case are enlightening, but I can't exactly see what point they are trying to make other than that the suspect wrote incriminating things while incarcerated that bear similarites to what Raf wrote. Having read the writings, they same night and day compared to what Amanda and Raf wrote, but maybe I'm missing the bigger picture. I'd invite Fuji and Stilicho to explain it here but I know that's asking for too much.

I'm actually from the JREF and have been for some time.

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

The main point Fuji made is that it is not at all uncommon for suspects to have their words (written or spoken) documented by investigators and used to prosecute them. Spader, Sollecito, and Knox all spoke and wrote details about a crime they were supposed to be entirely unaware of. These statements were later used against them to secure convictions.

 

[Chris C]

Hi RoseMontague!
I had to chime in 1 more time before I get back to the beach.
This time about Antonio Curatolo, a "Super Witness"

Perugia Shock
Sunday, March 29, 2009
The Day of Foolery
SUPER FAKE WITNESS

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/blog-post.html

"Antonio Curatolo, the homeless guy, the first and main Superwitness, the one who was supposed to nail Amanda and Raffaele saw them at the basketball court from 21:30 to 23:30. So, they were not at his place. But, if he's right, they were not even assailing Meredith.

Curatolo knew he had to study his part well, that he couldn't afford to to screw-up. Apparently he was aware of what not to say. The masks and the witches are wrong. So he eliminated them. The buses to the discotheque are fine. So he inserted them. Then he needed to show details, and how he could fix the presence of Amanda and Raffaele to exact times. Who knows how many times he repeated to himself this concept and so he tried. But he tried too much, he added too many details, imaginary details, wrong details.

Today he repeated that as soon as he arrives to the square, at 21:30-22:00, he starts to read a newspaper and while reading he's looking around and sees Amanda and Raffaele. The difference from his previous deposition is that now he sees them as soon as he starts reading, at 21:30-22:00, or just at 21:30, as it will emerge later.
They were Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, no doubt, he pointed at them in the courtroom.
So he sees them from the beginning, from 21:30, and he keeps seeing them, talking, arguing, going to the rail to watch below... until at least 23:30, when the discotheque buses start to leave.
It seems that he's been working hard to remember, but probably he forgot that Amanda and Raffaele had to be there only after 22:30-23:00.
He maybe thought that having seen the lovebirds only for a few minutes wasn't enough and in an effort to be credible he extended their presence to the whole period, providing them, in this way, an alibi for the crime. Or proving that his testimony was a fake.

No surprise, that's what happens when you rely on lunatics. People who can learn the same lesson a hundred times and still getting it wrong.
Curatolo was so worried about fixing the time that besides recalling that he goes to check it to the electronic board --on the other side of the square-- he added, today, that he also checks it on his own watch. But he had always stated not to have a watch. So Massei asked him to show his watch. And he didn't have it. Massei asked him if he could be more precise about his arrival time because 21:30-22:00 was a bit vague. And he did get more precise, much more precise: 21:27-21:28!
This is Antonio Curatolo, he can tell you exactly what you want to hear, he can tell you anything and the opposite of anything. He, as I always said, is simply a psychiatric case.
Now everyone realizes it. Even those who went to interview him and found him totally rational and credible. Even the judge Micheli, probably, while reading about today's hearing. Everyone was laughing at him in the courtroom. At him and at the heroes who discovered the Superwitness in that hard to reach place, the street."

The "Super Witness",
who can remember that he saw Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito at exactly 9:27-9:28 pm rolleyes that night
FORGOT that the buses WERE NOT RUNNING that night!
Hmmm...

Have a pleasant rest of the day,
RWVBWL

A few questions. How well lit is the area he is sleeping at. He must have pretty good light to read a newspaper. How well lit is the area Knox and Sollecito where suppose to be at. Because if the light is good enough to read a newspaper, the light where Knox and Sollecito is at, is going to have to be even better to recognize them. Since your night vision is going to be constantly adapting to the light where your at, the darkness outside, and the light where Knox and Sollecito are suppose to be standing at until 2330.

 

[Alt+F4]

Well when I was 20 years old and experimenting with 'jazz cigarettes' at university, 'morning' was a pretty flexible concept. If you have any experience with late teenage or early 20s kids, you know that they are capable of sleeping until ridiculous times in the afternoon, particularly when they have been up smoking the weed all night. So maybe they planned to go to Gubbio, but that was, like, yesterday, man?

You're right, they might have been smoking weed all night, but that is not what either of them said they were doing. After dinner they staring at spilled water, smoked, maked love then went to sleep....together.

Now we are hearing about an all night computer session.

I have a 21-year old step-daughter so I know how young women Amanda's age sleep/change plans. However, despite all the things that Amanda may have forgot, mis-remembered, or was confused about, she was very clear at trial that the trip to Gubbio was still on for that morning.

 

[Withnail1969]

I'm actually from the JREF and have been for some time.

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

The main point Fuji made is that it is not at all uncommon for suspects to have their words (written or spoken) documented by investigators and used to prosecute them. Spader, Sollecito, and Knox all spoke and wrote details about a crime they were supposed to be entirely unaware of. These statements were later used against them to secure convictions.

It seems something of a bizarre stretch given what i read of Spader's statements compared to Raffaele and Amanda's documents - unless you're trying to associate Amanda and Rafaelle with a self-confessed sociopathic killer, in which case it's logical if you wanted to blacken their names.

 

[Withnail1969]

You're right, they might have been smoking weed all night, but that is not what either of them said they were doing. After dinner, staring at spilled water, smoking, making love they then went to sleep....together.

Now we are hearing about an all night computer session.

I have a 21-year old step-daughter so I know how young women Amanda's age sleep/change plans. However, despite all the things that Amanda may have forgot, mis-remembered, or was confused about, she was very clear at trial that the trip to Gubbio was still on for that morning.

'sleep' is a hazy concept when one is under the influence of the herb. Are you asleep or are you just totally zonked out listening to that Pink Floyd album yet again? It's hard to tell.

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm actually from the JREF and have been for some time.

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

The main point Fuji made is that it is not at all uncommon for suspects to have their words (written or spoken) documented by investigators and used to prosecute them. Spader, Sollecito, and Knox all spoke and wrote details about a crime they were supposed to be entirely unaware of. These statements were later used against them to secure convictions.

Do you have 40 examples of this analogy? Just kidding, glad to see you back posting. What details did Knox and Sollecito give in their statements that only the murderer would know that had not been revealed by the press or police?

 

[RWVBWL]

Besides the break-in at the kindergarten, what other burglaries and break-ins did Rudy committ?

Hi Alt-F4,
Gosh I really gotta head to the beach, but your post has me begging the question:
Why wasn't Rudy Guede arrested for breaking into the school?
A person should not have to break into more than 1 place he does not belong to then be arrested, IMHO...

Let's see, it happened in October, IIRC, and so the school was probably used during the week to teach little children.
It's a place for little kids to learn, but yet it is seemingly OK to have someone with a knife in his possesion to be found there during non-classroom hours.

Ah, can you think safety issues for little kids?

Gosh, 1 of my sister's lives right down the street from Linwood E. Howe Elementary School, and for some reason I can not fathom the Culver City Police Department NOT arresting me if I was found B+E this school, -(where youngsters are taught), while in possesion of a knife...

Can you?

Maybe if the police HAD arrested Rudy Guede at that time,
Meredith Kercher might be alive right now!
Unless we just have Patrick Lumumba take his place.
Right...

RWVBWL

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm actually from the JREF and have been for some time.

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

The main point Fuji made is that it is not at all uncommon for suspects to have their words (written or spoken) documented by investigators and used to prosecute them. Spader, Sollecito, and Knox all spoke and wrote details about a crime they were supposed to be entirely unaware of. These statements were later used against them to secure convictions.

What tone would that be, stilicho?

 

[LondonJohn]

Do you have 40 examples of this analogy? Just kidding, glad to see you back posting. What details did Knox and Sollecito give in their statements that only the murderer would know that had not been revealed by the press or police?

I can answer that one: none whatsoever. It's another nasty example of confirmation bias at work.

 

[Malkmus]

I'm actually from the JREF and have been for some time.

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

The main point Fuji made is that it is not at all uncommon for suspects to have their words (written or spoken) documented by investigators and used to prosecute them. Spader, Sollecito, and Knox all spoke and wrote details about a crime they were supposed to be entirely unaware of. These statements were later used against them to secure convictions.

Stilicho, I know you're from JREF, but obviously you'd stopped posting in this thread since some time now. I'm glad you've chosen to at least reply to the topic you directed at us from PMF.

Spader writes in a similar tone? I read his writings and they are clearly the musings of a lunatic describing in detail how he hacked up a mother and daughter with extreme glee!

This seemed like a stretch when I first tried to understand the comparison, and it still does. I thought this was going to tell us something about internalized false confessions...

 

[Katody Matrass]

Or without Amanda's encouragement, as he actually claims.

I notice the absence of any fact that would describe this encouragement. Do you notice this total lack?

Hi, Machiavelli!

You seem to be among the believing that Amanda persuaded Raffaele to tell lies. Specifically she persuaded him to say that she wasn't with him on the night of the murder, she was at work.

I got a question to you, as I'm sure you've got this sorted out. Why would Amanda persuade Raffaele to contradict her alibi? What's the purpose? I can't make any sense out of it

 

[Alt+F4]

'sleep' is a hazy concept when one is under the influence of the herb. Are you asleep or are you just totally zonked out listening to that Pink Floyd album yet again? It's hard to tell.

Well you have a point there. In Rafaelle's prison diary he writes, "I don't remember" many times regarding that night and the next morning. If he was so zonked on weed that he doesn't remember his all night Internet session then he can't be certain that Amanda was there all night with him either. Can't have it both ways.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

fortunately for Italy, Judge Matteini was on the case

Yea that's fine, but it didn't work for Raff & Manders - murder investigators are slightly more skeptical than that.

.

Yeah, Judge Matteini was a good skeptic and did not believe Raffaele or Patrick. He sure showed us what critical thinking is all about. Case closed.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

Stilicho, I know you're from JREF, but obviously you'd stopped posting in this thread since some time now. I'm glad you've chosen to at least reply to the topic you directed at us from PMF.

Spader writes in a similar tone? I read his writings and they are clearly the musings of a lunatic describing in detail how he hacked up a mother and daughter with extreme glee!

This seemed like a stretch when I first tried to understand the comparison, and it still does. I thought this was going to tell us something about internalized false confessions...

Funnily enough, I wonder if Stilicho meant to write DISSIMILAR?

Freudian slip perhaps?

 

[LondonJohn]

Hi Alt-F4,
Gosh I really gotta head to the beach, but your post has me begging the question:
Why wasn't Rudy Guede arrested for breaking into the school?
A person should not have to break into more than 1 place he does not belong to then be arrested, IMHO...

Let's see, it happened in October, IIRC, and so the school was probably used during the week to teach little children.
It's a place for little kids to learn, but yet it is seemingly OK to have someone with a knife in his possesion to be found there during non-classroom hours.

Ah, can you think safety issues for little kids?

Gosh, 1 of my sister's lives right down the street from Linwood E. Howe Elementary School, and for some reason I can not fathom the Culver City Police Department NOT arresting me if I was found B+E this school, -(where youngsters are taught), while in possesion of a knife...

Can you?

Maybe if the police HAD arrested Rudy Guede at that time,
Meredith Kercher might be alive right now!
Unless we just have Patrick Lumumba take his place.
Right...

RWVBWL

And not only that, but we're supposed to believe that the Milan police recognised that Guede had stolen goods in his possession (the laptop etc) when they arrested him, but - incredibly - they accepted his explanation that he'd just bought them from a third party in Milan!. And then, possibly even more unbelievably, they let him off with a promise that he'd return the goods to the people from whom they'd been stolen, just as soon as he got back to Perugia!

If even only part of the above is true, either it indicates exceptional incompetence and apathy on behalf of the Milan police, or it indicates some form of protection of Guede.

 

[Withnail1969]

Well you have a point there. In Rafaelle's prison diary he writes, "I don't remember" many times regarding that night and the next morning. If he was so zonked on weed that he doesn't remember his all night Internet session then he can't be certain that Amanda was there all night with him either. Can't have it both ways.

It doesn't really work that way. On weed, you're very sensitive to any sort of noise or disturbance. You might be feeling kind of hazy and relaxed, but you will damn sure know about it if somebody gets up from next to you, puts on their coat and goes out, banging the door as they go and letting in the inevitable cold draft. The only way you wouldn't notice that is if you really are asleep.

 

[platonov]

Frank Sfarzo says ....................

Frank Sfarzo says........................

Frank Sfarzo says........................

Frank Sfarzo says........................

If Blogger opinion was all it took they would never have stood trial - never mind been convicted.

And several [many] members of the NYFD would be in prison over 911.

Is Frank S going to testify in the appeal ?

Either the defence can discredit C or they cant - have they new evidence.

Why didn't Frank mention this years ago - Oh he did. So what's new?

.

 

[Malkmus]

Spader writes with a tone similar to Kevin_Lowe and LondonJohn among others. It's not that similar to the tone employed by Sollecito or Knox.

What Spader wrote:

"It was such an adrenaline rush. I almost hit Gribble with the machete," Spader wrote. "He said I looked crazy."

"The little girl screamed and jumped into Gribbles, who stabbed and sliced her head, face, chest, then threw her into the glass door," Spader wrote. "I hacked up the mom."

What Sollecito wrote:

I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then come back home. The fact that there is Meredithʹs DNA on the kitchen knife is because on one occasion, while we were cooking together, I, while moving around at home [and] handling the knife,
pricked her hand, and I apologized at once but she was not hurt [lei non si era fatta niente].
So the only real explanation for that kitchen knife is this one.

Really, Stilicho? Really?

The main point Fuji made is that it is not at all uncommon for suspects to have their words (written or spoken) documented by investigators and used to prosecute them. Spader, Sollecito, and Knox all spoke and wrote details about a crime they were supposed to be entirely unaware of. These statements were later used against them to secure convictions.

Of course, if Raffaele had written a detailed account of slicing up poor Meredith that would have and should have been used against him, and I don't think anyone here would think he is innocent after writing anything close to what Spader did.

 

[Alt+F4]

Hi Alt-F4,
Gosh I really gotta head to the beach, but your post has me begging the question:
Why wasn't Rudy Guede arrested for breaking into the school?
A person should not have to break into more than 1 place he does not belong to then be arrested, IMHO...

Let's see, it happened in October, IIRC, and so the school was probably used during the week to teach little children.
It's a place for little kids to learn, but yet it is seemingly OK to have someone with a knife in his possesion to be found there during non-classroom hours.

Ah, can you think safety issues for little kids?

Gosh, 1 of my sister's lives right down the street from Linwood E. Howe Elementary School, and for some reason I can not fathom the Culver City Police Department NOT arresting me if I was found B+E this school, -(where youngsters are taught), while in possesion of a knife...

Can you?

Maybe if the police HAD arrested Rudy Guede at that time,
Meredith Kercher might be alive right now!
Unless we just have Patrick Lumumba take his place.
Right...

RWVBWL

Ah, you are referring to the testimony of Maria del Prato, the owner of the nursery school. He has been caught burglarizing the school by her, yet he doesn't attempt to kill her, doesn't assult her and even waits around while she calls the police.

Nursery school owner Maria del Prato testified in court today that she had stopped by her school Saturday Oct. 27, when it was closed, and came upon Guede in her office.

"I asked him who he was," she told the court, "and he replied perfectly calmly, even though I had caught him red-handed." Del Prato said he told her he was "a kid from Perugia" who had arrived the night before and had nowhere to sleep.

Del Prato doubted his story, as her locker had been opened, and she said she believed Guede was looking for something to steal. Some small change was missing, and Del Prato noticed Guede had a laptop, but he told her it was his.

When police arrived at the school, they searched Guede's backpack and found a large knife with a 16-inch blade that had been taken from the school kitchen.

Guede was later booked at a Milan police station and accused of theft, receiving stolen goods, and in possession of a weapon. He was also fingerprinted and then released.

 

[Alt+F4]

It doesn't really work that way. On weed, you're very sensitive to any sort of noise or disturbance. You might be feeling kind of hazy and relaxed, but you will damn sure know about it if somebody gets up from next to you, puts on their coat and goes out, banging the door as they go and letting in the inevitable cold draft. The only way you wouldn't notice that is if you really are asleep.

I think drugs effect different people in different ways. With that said what we have now is that Rafaelle doesn't remember much of what happened that evening (as per his diary), doesn't remember the all night Internet session, doesn't remember watching Naruto but does remember with 100% certainity that Amanda was with him the entire night.