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Forgiven for what, eactly?

AvalonXQ said:
There is no reason to believe that their deaths were the consequence of anything bad that they did. The Bible does not teach that what befalls you in this world is the consequence for your own actions, or that earthly suffering is caused by sin. On the contrary, the Bible teaches very clearly that good and bad things come on the righteous and the unrighteous alike. The Bible's central narrative is about the unjust suffering of an innocent man.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I believed in, or was explaining, some version of earthly "karma". The Bible doesn't support such a view, and neither do I.
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That is the same sort of meaningless twaddle that I got from believers at the time.Why didn't your god slide the tip on A Saturday when the school was empty? Was he so bored on that Thursday morning that he decided to amuse himself by killing a school full of children?I know the answer to the question of course.There is no god and the tip slid because it slid.I just wanted to see what sort of mealy-mouthed nonsense you would respond with.You did not disappoint me.
 
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Well, to be fair to Avalon, there is precedence there. We can only assume that God did it to teach someone else a lesson, like he taught Job. And you know, Job got replacements in the end, so as always, all is well that ends well.
 
What's His Face got someone to write up the story on the way he tormented Job.
Whereat's the earthly source for all the other disasters heaven has imposed on us?
Robertson and Haiti?
 
H'ethetheth said:
Well, to be fair to Avalon, there is precedence there. We can only assume that God did it to teach someone else a lesson, like he taught Job. And you know, Job got replacements in the end, so as always, all is well that ends well.
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If Avalon's sky daddy does exist,and he was responsible then I will have a few pertinent questions to put to Mr. Jehovah when I meet him.
 
So, will God punish me for the fact that the brain he gave me found his "holy book" to appear as a bunch of poorly put together stories from various societies throughout the ages with little connection to reality?

I mean, it's not like I'm actually sinning, unless you're arguing that there's an inherent morality in us that makes us think the Bible teaches the word of God, and I can't know what a sin is unless I believe in the Bible (which God can create however clear he wants to) which is subject to interpretation by my brain (which God has given me).

Will God punish me for the fact that I unknowingly discriminated against his holy book the Bible due to the fact that it appeared no more "truthful" than any other "holy book"?
 
H'ethetheth said:
Well, to be fair to Avalon, there is precedence there. We can only assume that God did it to teach someone else a lesson, like he taught Job. And you know, Job got replacements in the end, so as always, all is well that ends well.
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It didn't end well for our village.
 
AvalonXQ said:
How does God know what you will choose tomorrow, stop you from choosing it? What's the causal link between the two?
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The link is the knowing. Once an omnipotent being "knows" you have no ability to change.

Don't confuse "I can't do X" with "I won't do X". The two are not the same.
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The confusion is on your part. It is a "can't" change, not a "won't" change issue.

Think of it like this. If god knows I am going to McDonald's for lunch tomorrow but I feel like going to Burger King, too bad for me. I have to go to McDonald's.

God knows everything you will ever do before you exist. You have no chance to change that. So, you are ****** before you start because even if you want to change, you can't. If you could change something god already knows, he wouldn't be omnipotent would he?
 
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dafydd said:
If Avalon's sky daddy does exist,and he was responsible then I will have a few pertinent questions to put to Mr. Jehovah when I meet him.
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.
There's gonna be looooooooooong line ahead of you.
Bring a chair. :)
 
dafydd said:
If Avalon's sky daddy does exist,and he was responsible then I will have a few pertinent questions to put to Mr. Jehovah when I meet him.
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I Ratant said:
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There's gonna be looooooooooong line ahead of you.
Bring a chair. :)
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I'm sure AXQ thinks his beloved celestial tyrant's answer will be the same:

"I'm God! I can do what I want and if I say it's 'good' then it's good!"
 
dafydd said:
That is the same sort of meaningless twaddle that I got from believers at the time.
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It's "meaningless twaddle" because all I did was explain what the catastrophe didn't mean. It didn't mean that those who suffered were being punished for doing something wrong; it didn't mean that we can know something about their deeds and behavior by what calamaties befell them.
If my nonanswer upsets you, I can only conclude that what's upsetting you isn't me or my concept of God, but rather the fact that you don't like what happened.
 
qayak said:
The link is the knowing. Once an omnipotent being "knows" you have no ability to change.
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By what mechanism does the omnipotent being's knowledge eliminate your ability to change?

The confusion is on your part. It is a "can't" change, not a "won't" change issue.
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No, it's not. You can change. But you won't. That's the point -- foreknowledge doesn't say anything about your ability to make a choice. It just means that, once you make that choice, it will turn out that the foreknowledge was correct.

Think of it like this. If god knows I am going to McDonald's for lunch tomorrow but I feel like going to Burger King, too bad for me. I have to go to McDonald's.
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No. It means that if you feel like going to Burger King, and you do, then God knew you were going to Burger King.
By what mechanism does foreknowledge restrain choice?
 
TubbaBlubba said:
So, will God punish me for the fact that the brain he gave me found his "holy book" to appear as a bunch of poorly put together stories from various societies throughout the ages with little connection to reality?
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No.
If you have knowingly done something morally wrong, then you will face the consequences of that -- that and that alone is the cause of any punishment you receive.
If you have never done something morally wrong, then it doesn't matter whether you believe the Bible or not.
Failing to accept Jesus isn't the cause for condemnation; it's simply refusing the remedy. Just like failing to accept medicine isn't itself the cause of death.
 
AvalonXQ said:
No.
If you have knowingly done something morally wrong, then you will face the consequences of that -- that and that alone is the cause of any punishment you receive.
If you have never done something morally wrong, then it doesn't matter whether you believe the Bible or not.
Failing to accept Jesus isn't the cause for condemnation; it's simply refusing the remedy. Just like failing to accept medicine isn't itself the cause of death.
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But God is the one sitting there with Jesus, failing to provide sufficient incentive for me to accept it over any other remedy, say, homeopathy, to "cure my sins". How am I supposed to know that Jesus is the one right way? God made my brain, God made the supposed "evidence" of Jesus so why can't he make it in such a way that it appears remotely plausible to me?

Also, I'm pretty sure the sins themselves aren't the cause of eternal torment (unlike disease which directly causes death) but that God disapproves of you and tosses you into the lake of fire.
 
AvalonXQ said:
I'm sorry, but what do you mean by "it's already fated"? I expect your use of that phrase is essentially begging the question.
Where is the conflict between foreknowledge and free will?
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Well, the problem is this Avalon. I am who I am and make the choices I make based on how I was made and the experiences I have had. When god was making the world, he saw what everyone's experiences would be, and what peoples actions would be based on those experiences, and he chose to make it that way. He could have made the world a different way, so that people would turn out differently, make different choices based on different experiences.

If god has all the attributes you say he has, then he had no choice but to know what he was making and what the outcome would be. And not only that, but he chose this universe specifically out of all possible universes to make. It is possible that if events were different in my life that I would be a devout christian right now. But god selected this universe out of all possible ones, and in this universe I am an atheist.

If god made the universe, then god made me an atheist as well.
 
AvalonXQ said:
It's "meaningless twaddle" because all I did was explain what the catastrophe didn't mean. It didn't mean that those who suffered were being punished for doing something wrong; it didn't mean that we can know something about their deeds and behavior by what calamaties befell them.
If my nonanswer upsets you, I can only conclude that what's upsetting you isn't me or my concept of God, but rather the fact that you don't like what happened.
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Get off your condescending high horse.So you think that I don't like what happened?No.I revelled in it.One school and two streets were buried.I helped dig bodies out of the slurry.I was 14 years old.Why did your omnipoten sky daddy do it? An answer please.
 
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