Tories & Lib Dems propose forced labour

[Darat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11704765

Yep - lets get all these hundreds of thousands of lazy good for nothing scroungers (currently JSA claimants around 1.5 million, current official job vacancies about half a million - you do the maths) into forced labour.

They can do all the jobs that we don't want to pay people to do...


Mind you it is rather a clever scheme, think about it they are making around 500,000 public sector workers unemployed, lots of these will be from local councils. So they can make these lazy scroungers that they have made unemployed and force them back into doing the jobs they used to be paid thousands to do and the local councils will not have to pay a penny.

Clever.

 

[plumjam]

Well, how else is one to get one's moat cleaned these days?

 

[Sledge]

Still, it should prove popular with the Daily Mail brigade.

 

[Jeff Corey]

From the link, "The Work Activity scheme is said to be designed to flush out claimants who have opted for a life on benefits or are doing undeclared jobs on the side."
(bolding mine)
Is that much of a problem? I know unemployed people here sometimes barter work in, say carpentry, for car repairs or some cash under the table. Are they concern about the impact of that on tax revenues?

 

[The Don]

Is that much of a problem? I know unemployed people here sometimes barter work in, say carpentry, for car repairs or some cash under the table. Are they concern about the impact of that on tax revenues?

The irregular economy is reportedly large and an allegedly large number of people claim unemployment or income support benefits while working cash in hand.

It's difficult to say what proportion of claimants do work on the side but politically sorting out benefits cheats is a strong message with the population at large.

 

[Aitch]

It's difficult to say what proportion of claimants do work on the side but politically sorting out benefits cheats is a strong message with the population at large.

Yeah? Benefit fraud (government TV adverts etc), according to this, is about £5bn (less unclaimed benefits) as opposed to £17bn tax evasion (government strangely quiet on the subject).

It might be a strong message for the Daily Mail readership; the rest if us are less impressed.


ETA: A rather more interesting article on the subject.

 

[lionking]

Pinching Australian policies again!

We've had "Work for the Dole" for ages here and not only does it get people back into work habits, it actually gives them skills and experience which will allow them to compete for long term jobs.

And the OP is misleading. Nobody's forced to do anything. They don't have to accept unemployment payments.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

We've had "Work for the Dole" for ages here and not only does it get people back into work habits, it actually gives them skills and experience which will allow them to compete for long term jobs.

Hm. That used to be called the 'Future Jobs Fund' until it was axed by this current Government. Not only were you doing a job that was of importance to the community but you got paid for it too. Rather than doing gardening or litter collection (How exactly is that going to look on your CV?) you worked for organisations such as these.

They don't have to accept unemployment payments.

That's true. Why don't people starve like they used to?

 

[commandlinegamer]

I'm surprised they haven't mentioned Victorian Values yet. Can the days of the poorhouse be far behind?

 

[Beerina]

From the link, "The Work Activity scheme is said to be designed to flush out claimants who have opted for a life on benefits or are doing undeclared jobs on the side."
(bolding mine)
Is that much of a problem? I know unemployed people here sometimes barter work in, say carpentry, for car repairs or some cash under the table. Are they concern about the impact of that on tax revenues?

About 20 years ago the Federal government in the US let the states experiment with different things, since they do the dirty work of implementing welfare. Republican governor, at the time, John Engler basically declared that if you were single and healthy, had no children, and were not mentally disabled, there was no such thing as welfare for you.

Boy the starving bodies piled up! Within six months it was repealed.


j/k it worked fine.

 

[lionking]

That's true. Why don't people starve like they used to?

My point is that if someone accepts unemployment payment (or Job Search Allowance or whatever) they are under an obligation to look for work or better prepare themselves for work by re-training. If they either don't do those things or if they are unsuccessful in finding work, it's quite fair for the government to require them to work as a condition of receiving payment. Do you think people should stay on the dole indefinitely without the government doing anything?

And I completely disagree with your comment about a stint of gardening looking bad on someone's CV. It beats a blank space hands down.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

Which is why the Future Jobs Fund was far superior to this idea for getting people back into work.

 

[The Don]

Yeah? Benefit fraud (government TV adverts etc), according to this, is about £5bn (less unclaimed benefits) as opposed to £17bn tax evasion (government strangely quiet on the subject).

It might be a strong message for the Daily Mail readership; the rest if us are less impressed.


ETA: A rather more interesting article on the subject.

IIRC correctly, the £17bn figure is a combination of evasion (illegal), non-payment (illegal) and avoidance (legal). The detail is given here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/protect-tax-revenue-5450.pdf

From that article, the tax gap breaks down as follows:

- Avoidance 17.5%
- Evasion 17.5%
- Legal interpretation 15%
- Failure to take reasonable care 15%
- Criminal attacks 12.5%
- Hidden economy 7.5%
- Non-payment 7.5%
- Error 7.5%

So over 30% of the underpayment between what HMRC thinks it should receive and what it does receive is due to legal avoidance or the grey area of legal interpretation. That means £6bn remains uncollected because HMRC have left loopholes in place and/or because the tax system is so complex that there are interpretational differences on how it should be applied.


20% (criminal attacks and hidden economy) are due to criminal activity

Over 20% is due to stupidity and/or incompetence


I know it's tempting to think that the tax gap is all down to fat cats and big business sitting there avoiding (or evading) tax, and the recent Vodafone debacle only goes to reinforce that perception. In fact it seems like it's a bit more complicated that that. Not least because the tax gap is calculated on what HMRC think they should be receiving if the spirit (rather that the letter) of the law is followed.

The document attached also outlines what HMRC are doing to plug the tax gap.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

About 20 years ago the Federal government in the US let the states experiment with different things, since they do the dirty work of implementing welfare. Republican governor, at the time, John Engler basically declared that if you were single and healthy, had no children, and were not mentally disabled, there was no such thing as welfare for you.

Boy the starving bodies piled up! Within six months it was repealed.


j/k it worked fine.

Stats pls.

 

[lionking]

I obviously can't talk with authority about the UK system (even though I doubt that it is dramatically different from Australia's), but I have been on both sides of the counter at the dole office (called the Commonwealth Employment Service when I was both a customer and an employee).

I was unemployed for five months after taking a substantial redundancy package, and went on the dole after a short waiting period. It was incredibly easy to meet the requirements - I was looking for work, but the CES staff weren't particularly interested. When I got a job (ironically) with the CES, it was easy to detect those not interested in finding a job, but very difficult to "breach" anyone. Things had to change and they did.

Work for the Dole had the dual effect of ensuring the work-shy were a little more serious about their obligations and, more importantly, giving unemployed people work experience which led to real jobs. I take Darat's point that there is a shortage of jobs now, but this won't last forever and if people are left to rot on the dole they won't be in a position to compete for jobs as they are created.

 

[Mojo]

Mind you it is rather a clever scheme, think about it they are making around 500,000 public sector workers unemployed, lots of these will be from local councils. So they can make these lazy scroungers that they have made unemployed and force them back into doing the jobs they used to be paid thousands to do and the local councils will not have to pay a penny.

Not only that, but if the unemployed can do their jobs for nothing, they can make the rest of the council workers redundant and then eventually force them go back to their original jobs for nothing.

Why don't they just make signing on a criminal offence, punishable by a fixed penalty of 60 hours community service, and have done with it?

 

[Delscottio]

I'll be surprised if it actually happens. As it is, there are barely enough stafff to deal with those actually attending to sign on. From people I know who work in job centres they are prety much overloaded as it is.

Where the administration staff are going to be found to deal with all this is anyones guess. It'll not be a simple procedure, the number of suspensions, appeals and tribunals will be vast.

It looks like simply playing to the crowd.

 

[Mojo]

Where the administration staff are going to be found to deal with all this is anyones guess.

They could always force the unemployed to do it for nothing.

 

[Delscottio]

They could always force the unemployed to do it for nothing.

Good point well made sir.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Where the administration staff are going to be found to deal with all this is anyones guess. It'll not be a simple procedure, the number of suspensions, appeals and tribunals will be vast.

...snip...

Don't be silly - just cast the magic spell "Efficiency Savings" and all those problems will go away, indeed as a result of that magic spell they may be able to put more of these scroungers on the dole!