The Electric Comet theory

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Why dosn't all rock (i.e comets) behave like the moon in the solar "wind" (electric current)?

Seems it happens on Enceladus as well!!

Again what causes the ionisation to happen? RC?

What about our Moon when it passes thru the Earths magnetotail?

Typically another misunderstanding by Sol88 (who is surprised?) And quote mining, leaving out the important part from the link:

Heated vents at the south pole of the moon release a plume of material, consisting mainly of icy grains and water vapour, into space.

This is neutral (not-ionized) icy and water, thank you very much.
Which interacts with the plasma in the Kronian magnetosphere

Measurements from the Cassini Plasma Spectrometer (CAPS) and the Magnetospheric IMaging Instrument (MIMI) show that both the moon and its plume are continuously soaking up the plasma, which rushes past at around 30 kilometers per second, leaving a cavity downstream. In addition, the most energetic particles which zoom up and down Saturn’s magnetic field lines are swept up, leaving a much larger void in the high energy plasma. Material from Enceladus, both dust and gas, is also being charged and forming new plasma.

The interaction of the magnetospheric plasma and the neutral plumes will ionize the particles in the plumes.

They do write that

“Enceladus is the source of most of the plasma in Saturn’s magnetosphere, with ionised water and oxygen originating from the vents forming a big torus of plasma that surrounds Saturn.

which is shorthand for what I wrote above.

Just another nail to Sol88's credability in reading even the most simple of news stories.
 
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So the only hang up between the EU perspective and "mainstreams" is the source of the heating and how far down
The interaction of the magnetospheric plasma and the neutral plumes will ionize the particles in the plumes.
100km? 10km? 1km? all the way to the surface?


ouble layer formation because of different plasma properties? could be a source for the heat!

But yeah basically we can agree that what is happening on this moon is some "new and misunderstood" electromagnetic phenomenon, hell even ours is doing some funky EM (crazy electrons being so much lighter than protons and stuff, (and NASA does not want to go back) is ???!!!

crazy bastards :mad:

Hows the wording though? in the PR
Enceladus plows through the plasma "spiky" features form that represent bubbles of low energy particles
Spiky features, Bubbles??

And did they forget all the other "hot" poles of planets and Moons?
Heated vents at the south pole of the moon release a plume of material, consisting mainly of icy grains and water vapour, into space./QUOTE] Outside earth
Other astronomical bodies are also known to have polar vortices, including Venus (double vortex - that is, two polar vortices at a pole [1]), Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Saturn's moon Titan.

double-eyed vortex at Venus south pole

The brighter the colour, the more radiation is reaching out from the hot layers below. The brightest spot correspond to the centre of the vortex, where radiation from the deeper layers become clearly visible , like looking through a hole.

So maybe the heating is NOT caused by "Tidal heating" :rolleyes:, but something EM in nature? Induction? Pinching?
 
Oh my goodness, how should one reply to so much idiocy?

The plasma of the magnetosphere interacts with the neutral plumes, and the interaction is that the particles of both collide and either ionize the neutral by just kicking out an electron from the neutral, or they have a charge exchange interaction in which an electron from a neutral goes to the ion. Naturally, there can also be radiation the ionizes the neutrals.

And this process goes on all the way to the surface yes, why should it not? Enceladus is not protected by any magnetosphere or someting. Note, however, that this has NOTHING to do with any heating. It is mind boggling that you come up with heating here.

ouble layer, I guess you mean double layer. It is basically impossible to get a double layer because there is no steady state there, the plasma of the Kronian magnetosphere is moving at high speed past Enceladus. There is, thus, no boundary between two different plasmas. Also, such a double layer would not produce any heat, so it is stupefying how you come to such conclusions. Apparently you know jack about plasma physics.

And no we DO NOT agree at all that there is a "misunderstood EM process" because it is all pretty standard. Maybe you should read REAL papers instead of dumbified press releases?

However as the link writes (you forgot a word, so the sentence does not make any sense)

as Enceladus plows through the plasma "spiky" features form that represent bubbles of low energy particles

Enceladus sweeps away particles from the Kronian magnetosphere. When a spacecraft flys through the magnetosphere it will measure sudden (spiky) drops in density in the data (spiky because the signatures are short).

There are clear vents on the south pole of Enceladus that are either open or closed, depending where the moon is in the Kronian system. They are opened and closed by the flexing of the moon by the tidal forces. You may not like it, but that is how it works.

The vortices at poles are something completely different and happen to solar system objects that have an atmosphere.

Could you just stop spouting this uttern nonsense. First come up with a real model using your EU pinches and induction and double layers, maybe then we can discuss any further.

But knowing you, you are only here to bitch about the mainstream, so I don't expect anything from you or your team (Zeuzzz, Michael Mozina, Brantc) that even comes close to a quantitative solution to the problems. It's bunnies all the way down.
 
Lunar Surface Charging & Enceladus Geysers

Why dosn't all rock (i.e comets) behave like the moon in the solar "wind" (electric current)?
I assume you have not been following this thread, so maybe you have not noticed that fact that comets are not rocks. Asteroids, on the other hand, probably behave much like the moon, and may have a surface potential as high as about 5 Volts under normal circumstances.

Seems it happens on Enceladus as well!! How exactly? Again what causes the ionisation to happen? RC?
The south pole of enceladus sports a number of "ice geysers" (image of geysers; geyser source model) which emit high speed neutral gas that is only later ionized in the usual way (e.g., solar ultraviolet, solar wind charge exchange & etc.). Terribly mysterious no doubt.

But yeah basically we can agree that what is happening on this moon is some "new and misunderstood" electromagnetic phenomenon, ...
No, we can't agree on that. The fact that the lunar surface should be electrically charged has been on the table since at least Singer & Walker, 1962, and in Whipple, 1977 it is shown that the exposed surface will charge to a potential that minimizes the incident current (see Stubbs, et al., 2007). The existence of a potential in a shadowed crater is only a natural side effect of the charging of the surface, and has itself been anticipated in the past (see, e.g., Farrell, et al, 2010; Stubbs, et al., 2010; Halekas, et al., 2002; Reiff, 1976).
 
Science does it again!!

http://www.dailyrumors.net/473-first-images-of-comet-hartley-2-captured-by-nasa

"We're learning a lot because this nucleus appears to be quite different from the other four we already know," said a Nasa Tv Mike A'Hearn, University of Maryland, who is leading this part of the project.

This nucleus appears to be quite different from the other four we already know? Like we are %100 sure of the others???

How do you think these jets work?
The body would consist of "a mixture of silicate dust and water ice", although the possibility has emerged that in Hartley 2 is also "carbon and nitrogen."
Where the water ice?? (again!!) :rolleyes:

Are you, RC, prepared to concede that the primary effects on a comets surface are plasma/electrical in nature?
 
can you elaborate on why what you posted changes how anyone thinks about how the primary effects on a comet are plasma/electrical by nature?
 
Science does it again!!

If you imagine that Comet Hartley was electrically charged a millisecond before this photo was taken, and you imagine that those jets consist of charged particles accelerated by the resulting electric fields:

Well, Comet Hartley is no longer charged. That's what a discharge means. It means you take the separated charges and let them come back together, leaving something closer to neutral.

What a stroke of luck, then EPOXI flew by Hartley at the one single moment that its hugely-unstable "electric charge" decided to move around! A five year long mission and it happens to arrive---by pure luck--- within a millisecond of Hartley's electrical discharge! (Note: dis + charge = removal of charge = not charged any more)

What high-voltage current source is going to charge it up again? I sure don't see a big Van de Graaff belt in the NASA photo. How long will it take before Hartley is charged up strongly enough for another discharge?
 
Dancing David:
So Sol88, how does hartley2 aquire and maintain this electrical charge?

You still struggling with rock aquiring charge in a plasma "wind"???

TRY & THIS LUNAR ELECTRIC FIELDS, SURFACE
POTENTIAL AND ASSOCIATED PLASMA SHEATHS*
J. W. FREEMAN and M. IBRAHIM
Dept. of Space Physics and Astronomy, Rice University, Houston, Tex., U.S.A.
Intersting to note DD is the very first opening line!!!

I'll highlight it for you, please understand this is were the "charge" comes from,

Any body immersed in a plasma acquires a net negative charge.

So if the electric field centre on the Sun has a higher charge (is more positive) than the comet nucleus, there will be a charge difference.

And I think we can all agree on the fact charges like to equilize!

which brings me to the next point,
 
What high-voltage current source is going to charge it up again? I sure don't see a big Van de Graaff belt in the NASA photo. How long will it take before Hartley is charged up strongly enough for another discharge?

Orbital motion!!

I think you believe it becomes charge nuetral after a millisecond of dis-charging :eek:

How long does it take for the charge contained deeper under the surface to equilize? Milliseconds??

If that were to happen, we would see comets explode and come apart!!! like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj1pkyCL75E&NR=1 and we don't see that, well we do but thats because we KNOW comets are NOT very dense, like RC said "comets with a measured density of ~0.6 g/cc" but with composition made of high temp minerals that at the mesured density of 0.6g/cc comets must be loose piles of dust (oh and ice) except they look like and feel ROCK!

So what in fact EPOXI is watching is the gradule dis-discharge of a rocky body that is more negitive than the plasma it is moving thru and increasing in net + charge!

What do you think the jets are?? Water ice and other volitiles escaping from the nozzels which mey or may not be the bright spots on the surface or something like that??

Or are the effects we have observed on a few comets now mainly electric??
 
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Orbital motion!!

I think you believe it becomes charge nuetral after a millisecond of dis-charging :eek:

No, I think it was charge neutral to begin with. :)

How long does it take for the charge contained deeper under the surface to equilize? Milliseconds??

So you think the surface will discharge in one millisecond, then charge migrates up from below a millisecond later and makes the *next* discharge, etc.? Complete nonsense. First: after you're done inventing a surface charging mechanism, you're going to invent a bulk-charging mechanism? Have you ever seen a bulk-charging mechanism? I have, they don't happen by accident. Second: you think the bulk charge stays in the bulk except when the surface is cleared? You're wrong, please visit your local high school physics teacher and ask how charged solids behave.

So what in fact EPOXI is watching is the gradule dis-discharge of a rocky body that is more negitive than the plasma it is moving thru and increasing in net + charge!

Nonsense. An initially-negative body moving through a + or neutral plasma does not "increase net + charge", it becomes less negative, i.e. closer to neutral. This does not happen via a sudden discharge; the plasma has been there all along and will trickle-discharge any initial charge you care to imagine. This isn't an ultracapacitor that you suddenly poke a screwdriver into---THAT will discharge. This is a body that spends decades slowly moving from a slightly-thinner plasma into a slightly-denser plasma.

What do you think the jets are?? Water ice and other volitiles escaping from the nozzels which mey or may not be the bright spots on the surface or something like that??

I would defer to actual comet experts on this point. http://www.brown.edu/Administration/News_Bureau/2005-06/05-072.html So: yes, water ice, volatiles, and entrained dust escaping in pressure-driven jets.
 
So you think the surface will discharge in one millisecond, then charge migrates up from below a millisecond later and makes the *next* discharge, etc.? Complete nonsense. First: after you're done inventing a surface charging mechanism, you're going to invent a bulk-charging mechanism? Have you ever seen a bulk-charging mechanism? I have, they don't happen by accident. Second: you think the bulk charge stays in the bulk except when the surface is cleared? You're wrong, please visit your local high school physics teacher and ask how charged solids behave.

(There was something I wanted to add to this before but couldn't quite put my finger on.)

Also: a bulk-charged solid, exposed to a bath of neutralizing charge, neutralizes completely. Neutralizing the whole object does not need to "wait" for bound internal charges to migrate to the surface. Bulk charge sets up an external field just as well as "exposed" charge does, and is just as good at attracting opposite charges from the environment. So: yes, a bulk-charged object, immersed in a plasma, will neutralize completely no matter where the internal charge is and how fast it moves around.

The solid would appear neutral on the outside and therefore does not interact electromagnetically with the plasma any more. However, it would have an excess surface charge, equal in amount but of opposite sign to the excess bulk charge. Any further interaction/cancellation of these two charges is by conduction inside the solid, since the only nonzero fields are inside the rock. No external discharges.

(What about those fields inside the solid? How fast will they neutralize by conduction? Depends on what the rock is made of. Carbons, ices, iron, PAHs? Very good conductors, they'll quietly conduct away any bulk charge. Let's go all the way and pick a bad conductor, like basalt. The highest field you can imagine in a bulk-charged basalt block is about 3MV/m. The energy density of this field---hence (by conservation of energy) the amount of "bang" you can get in the worst imaginable discharge---just once---is about 40 Joules per cubic meter.

By comparison: 40 Joules is enough to boil 20 milligrams of water. 40 Joules per m^3 is enough to heat up basalt by about 10 milliKelvin. 40 Joules per m^3, stored in the entirety of Comet Hartley II, adds up to about 30 gigaJoules total---equivalent to burning a few barrels of oil, or crashing a large jet plane. It's It's NOT MUCH ENERGY. It's a pitifully tiny amount of energy. It's as much thermal energy as the comet absorbs from sunlight every minute.

Sol88, your idea is complete nonsense. Electrostatics does not work the way you think it does. "Excess charge" doesn't involve that much power. Discharges don't go in the directions you think they do. "bulk charge" doesn't contribute what you think it does. It's complete and utter nonsense.

Pick up your own electricity-and-magnetism textbook and tell me, with numbers derived from actual E&M laws, what you think the charge configuration in Comet Hartley 2 could be such that your discharges make sense. Can you do so?
 
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Science does it again!!
http://www.dailyrumors.net/473-first-images-of-comet-hartley-2-captured-by-nasa

This nucleus appears to be quite different from the other four we already know? Like we are %100 sure of the others???
Like he did not say that. Read what he said.
No one is 100% sure of what the other comets look like.

How do you think these jets work?
Physics.

Where the water ice?? (again!!) :rolleyes:
There is the water ice (again!!) :rolleyes:
The body would consist of "a mixture of silicate dust and water ice", although the possibility has emerged that in Hartley 2 is also "carbon and nitrogen."
Are you, RC, prepared to concede that the primary effects on a comets surface are plasma/electrical in nature?
That is idiotic, Sol88.
Even from someone who cannot grasp the simple fact that the measured density of comet nuclei is ~0.6 g/cc, the measured density of asteroids is ~3.0 g/cc and that 0.6 is less than 3.0 :jaw-dropp!

They are obviously jets, not your fantasy of physically impossible electrical discharges, e.g. see ben m's posts.
 
He is completely deluded if he thinks that elecrical effects are not already included in astronomy, astrophysics and planetary science.
What electrical effects are you refering too?

Do you mean these:
one of the highest resolution image yet of these enigmatic solar flux tubes.
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/1011/spicules_nso_big.jpg
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap101102.html

Or these effects in this picture of Enceladus
http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0911/enceladus12_cassini_big.png

So many of the ANOMALIES OF COMETS leave NASA scratching their heads but the new data/evidence seems to favour the EU/PC team over at Thunderbolts
http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2010/arch10/101105hartley.htm
 
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