• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Forgiven for what, eactly?

Hellbound said:
Now, if I'm a true Christian, and truly love my fellow man, why am I going to let him risk his eternal soul for a few decades of toil, struggle, and pain in theis Earthly realm?
Click to expand...
Yep, Hamlet struggled with a different version of that same question.

If you have the responsibility to obey the laws of our society by living in our society, why don't you have the reponsibility to obey the laws of God's universe by living in God's universe?
Click to expand...
I do obey the laws of the universe - for example, if I lose my balance and can't regain it again, I fall down. If I mush enough fissionable material together, I expect there to be a huge explosion. I don't set fires on the hardwood floors of my house.

It's not immoral to make a being which can, of its own free will, make an immoral choice.
Click to expand...
It is if you plan to submit that being to infinite torture for acting as you created it to act.
 
Elizabeth I said:
It's not immoral to make a being which can, of its own free will, make an immoral choice.
Click to expand...
It is if you plan to submit that being to infinite torture for acting as you created it to act.
Click to expand...
A being with free will, by definition does not act "as you created it to act". It acts as it chooses to act.
If you disagree with that, then you disagree that the being has free will.
 
AvalonXQ said:
That is an accurate assessment on what I believe the Bible says.


The Bible says that it is possible to condition yourself until you no longer have a conscience about the moral wrongs you have done. The Bible does teach that you have committed evil acts (like everyone else). I would therefore conclude, not knowing more, that these people at one time knew they were doing wrong, even if they later convinced themselves that what they were doing wasn't wrong.
Click to expand...

But those are moral wrongs as defined in the bible. However the bible requests many things that nowadays are considered immoral by the majority of humanity.
If god is the steering our morality then clearly god no longer considers the bible a moral document, or at least significant parts of it. So by that argument perhaps those following the bible are now going against god's will.
The main problem I have with the concept is also that god's idea of morals seems to vary a great deal based on geographic location and upbringing. If a single morality is installed in us by god, then why this massive difference?

Again, my take on it is that morality is NOT an intrinsic value and is installed by parents, family and culture, but how do you explain these massive value dissonances across the world?
 
AvalonXQ said:
That's another good question. The nature of the universe, God's role in creating it, our purpose in being created -- I think these are sufficient reasons to establish a responsibility to God. Do you not?
Click to expand...

Actually, that is a very interesting philosophical question. Because we as humanity are on the cusp of reaching this point ourselves.
Assuming our techonological progress continues as it has in the past century a true artifical intelligence or fully lab designed intelligent lifeform are not total science fiction anymore.
If or when we create such an entity, is it then moral for us to say, we give you free will, but if you go against this set of rules we will punish you. But as part of the initial programming we make it pretty much inevitable that such a being WILL go against these rules.
Then we give it 2000 options each of which promises to negate the punishment, only one of which is right, but the other 1999 look equally right for someone that doesn't know the correct number.

This lifeform never asked to be created. It never got to design its basic behavioural patterns. The only reason it exists is our whim. We control its 'universe' and we decide what happens to it.
I personally would be abhorred if I discovered someone ran such an experiment and consider it a form of slavery that should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
But by your reasoning anyone doing this is a lifegiver and such a lifeform should be happy in its lot.

If you disagree with this, again the question, are we beholden to god (assuming a god exists)?
 
AvalonXQ said:
A being with free will, by definition does not act "as you created it to act". It acts as it chooses to act.
If you disagree with that, then you disagree that the being has free will.
Click to expand...

Here's where I disagree. Human beings did not create the hippocampus, the amygdala, or serotonin. We didn't set the thresholds of our needs, our physical drives, or our psychology. And according to Christianity, it was not us humans who invented the Biblical rules under which all these things are supposed to be constrained.

Powerful as He is, surely God could have arranged things differently. He could have made our natures more prone to righteousness. He could have devised rules more in line with our God-created limitations.

He didn't, and now -- somehow -- we're the ones who owe the apology. It just don't compute.
 
Bishadi said:
ouch.....i hope that class (exam) is not bound to the beliefs, because to mention that the original sin is mankind leaving the garden (believing he is separate), may get you into trouble.




ie.... not so much 'jesus' is doing it, but that 'return' portion is what many render as to 'when' the recombining of mankind with the garden begins. Some believe jesus is coming back in a physical form when reality is more like, jesus was not that he (Matt 16:20) per his claim (of bible) and that his works, will be rendered during the actually 'hammer time'. (john 14:26, and 14:30)

the worst is the false witness, in which a belief will often require a 'creed' to be held (which is a lie).
Click to expand...

My teachers are christians(and very good), but the study is academic, so it's pretty secular. It's allowed to come up with interpretions like you do, where mankind is seperated from nature/god, as long one can justify it in the bible or other academic sources that not is too far out.

Somehow, I belive that the best way to understand christian sin, is to read the NT while remembering who the text was meant for. Yeshua claimed his fellow jews back then was too fixed on their acting(instructions found in OT), ignoring the psychological part. To most jews back then, acting against the laws in OT was what sin was about. Yeshua was probably also influenced by newer cultures, that wasn't present the time Torah was written. From there, one can explore the different concepts of sin and orginal sin, claimed by different brances of christianity.
 
Last edited:
Robin said:
So Jesus never found anybody sexually attractive?

Also, one of the things I do that I consider morally wrong is that I spend money on luxury items for myself when I know that there are people who go hungry - even in my own city.

Jesus, never having sinned, would not have done anything like that, would he?
Click to expand...

AvalonXQ, I think you forgot to answer this question?
 
AvalonXQ said:
That's another good question. The nature of the universe, God's role in creating it, our purpose in being created -- I think these are sufficient reasons to establish a responsibility to God. Do you not?
Click to expand...

No.
My daughter has no special responsibility to me just simply for the fact that I chose to bear her and give her life. I made that decision, after all. She bears me responsibility only for the things we agree on when she's old enough to understand any commitment she makes to me. I can't hold her responsible for things that I decided are right or wrong prior to her birth, or pronounce ex cathedra with no consultation as to how that would affect her.

I didn't ask to be brought into this universe, nor do I expect to be punished for the actions and decisions of other people, or for things determined without consultiation with me. I don't ask forgiveness for the actions of others, nor for things I don't belive to be wrong. I have no respect for anyone who would expect such bizarre and unfounded loyalty from me, and who would punish me for living the best life I can.
 
Doesn't it all depend on which god one takes up as the law giver?
Seems that way.
Mixing fabrics... BAD!
Come on!
Who gives a rat's patootie what you wear?
Picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
Is it some god that's offended, or some blue-nosed hater that wants to control people?
All these god-shouters are just lunatics with a gift of gab and charisma, able to cause people to fear the invisible and unsubstantial and imaginary.
 
AvalonXQ said:
A being with free will, by definition does not act "as you created it to act". It acts as it chooses to act.
If you disagree with that, then you disagree that the being has free will.
Click to expand...

Is there free will in heaven?
 
SnnTsd said:
To my understanding, forgiving sincerely is something you should do towards others, so YHWH can forgive you.
Click to expand...

FOR WHAT? I haven't done anything. This is backwards.

It's part of the peace&love/golden rule message from Yeshua. You can't expect YHWH to forgive you, if you can't forgive others. Also, when YHWH forgive and love you, you will get motivated to forgive the surroundings.
Click to expand...

What exactly did I do that Jehova needs to forgive me? My forgiving others has no bearing on Jehova. That is like me saying to someone who has wronged me, "I would love to forgive you but you didn't forgive the next door neighbour kid when she called you a poopy head when you were three years old. Sorry, I gotta execute you and let you roast in an oven for eternity on this one!"

It isn't my place to decide if you can forgive someone or not. Only the wronged party can decide to do that. That is the trouble with people, they think they have the right to forgive someone for wrongs done to others. And they get that dumb idea from the bible.

I've never met any christians that agree that not turning the other cheek is a sin, btw.
Click to expand...

I have, lots of them. Of course, it is always after they do something to you and then want you to turn the other cheek, that they claim it is a sin not to.
 
AvalonXQ said:
A being with free will, by definition does not act "as you created it to act". It acts as it chooses to act.
If you disagree with that, then you disagree that the being has free will.
Click to expand...

Well, the problem with that is that in order to create something without knowing what it will do, there would have to be something you don't know. If you are ok with god not being omniscient then I guess that all works out fine.
 
Elizabeth I said:
Yep, Hamlet struggled with a different version of that same question.


I do obey the laws of the universe - for example, if I lose my balance and can't regain it again, I fall down. If I mush enough fissionable material together, I expect there to be a huge explosion. I don't set fires on the hardwood floors of my house.


It is if you plan to submit that being to infinite torture for acting as you created it to act.
Click to expand...

Ooops! That's what I get for copying and pasting to get just parts of quotes, and for posting during my lunch hour when I couldn't get back in time to edit.

I will state for the record that the second two quotes in my post were not by Hellbound.
 
qayak said:
FOR WHAT? I haven't done anything. This is backwards.

What exactly did I do that Jehova needs to forgive me? My forgiving others has no bearing on Jehova. That is like me saying to someone who has wronged me, "I would love to forgive you but you didn't forgive the next door neighbour kid when she called you a poopy head when you were three years old. Sorry, I gotta execute you and let you roast in an oven for eternity on this one!"

It isn't my place to decide if you can forgive someone or not. Only the wronged party can decide to do that. That is the trouble with people, they think they have the right to forgive someone for wrongs done to others. And they get that dumb idea from the bible.
Click to expand...

You are a hopeless sinnner according to the bible, as I understand it. But your interpretation of the word "sin", is not how sin was perceived back then, and the hebrew/greek bible uses different words for sin, where King James probably only use the word "sin".

Back then, before Jesus, the judeans was punished a lot for worshipping other gods and not following the OT. If you lost your family or a war, it was because God wasn't happy with you. This was fixed by sacrificing animals, and Jehova did forgive the judeans. This was normal thinking back then, and other gods in that area was worshipped in a similar manner.

But at the time of Jesus, some people started to ask "Is it really ok with Jehova to only make sacrifices and eat proper food and join ceremonies, while behaving bad in other manners?".

So sin back then, and sacrificing animals, was about forgiving wrongdoings according to OT. Jesus added some more cases of sin that wasn't totally clear explained in OT, as a comment to how people to should behave better at his time. Look at King Herod, he was a jew, who was responsible for constructing the second temple, but he wasn't a very nice ruler, and many people would saved their lives if he stopped sinning according to Jesus, not only sacrificing and joining Pesach.

After this, christians have tried to define what sin is, based on their personalities, their needs, the era, their society and their surroundings.

So, when asking a fundie christian what sin is according to him, it helps to know where he lives, what motivates him and what his values from his family are. Depending on the reply, you will get an answer if your sins can be forgiven or not, or needs repeated forgiving.

Ok, that's the best I could come up with.

qayak said:
I have, lots of them. Of course, it is always after they do something to you and then want you to turn the other cheek, that they claim it is a sin not to.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's crazy!
 
Last edited:
Okay, AvalonXQ, you've said that God knowingly created free-will beings that he knew would sin. So your view is that God has perfect foreknowledge. I presume you also believe in the existence of Satan, who likewise made a free-will choice to rebel against God, one that God knew he would make, since Satan is his creation.

If we imagine the cosmic struggle between God and Satan that will culminate in a monumental last battle, then we could portray it as a chess match between God and Satan. However, it this match one contender (God) not only created the chessboard, its pieces and his opponent (Satan); but he as well knows, in advance, every move both he and his opponent will make and how the game will end, i.e. that he will win.

So what's the point? Why bother with a contest that, in effect, is a charade?
 
Avalon,what did my six year old sister and her classmates do that was so bad that god decided to kill them on the 21st of October 1966 in the Aberfan disaster?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom